Clarity in Fantasy Writing and the "Your Dad" Theory

ConnorMuldowney

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I don't know if unsolicited advice threads are appropriate, I'm still a bit new to the forum, so if this thread is "preachy" let me know and I can take it down.

However, I feel I've noticed a pattern in the mistakes fantasy writers tend to make. They have no shortage of imagination. However, no matter how creative of a scenario, world or conflict they come up with, sometimes they just struggle to make sure that everything is "clear." When I say clear, I'm not talking about the world itself. I'm not referring to the advice that every fantasy story needs a "fish out of water" character so that other characters can explain the world to them, and thus the audience (in fact I don't actually find that advice useful, that often feels a little condescending to me). I'm more talking about making sure that the action has a tight enough focus, that the dialogue relays information efficiently, and that the conflicts escalate/progress in a logical manner. Whenever I read a published fantasy story, I'm struck with the clarity of everything happening, even if the story itself is just okay. Meanwhile, sometimes on forums I'll read people's excerpts of their passions projects, and often the characters are far more interesting, the urgency far more potent, and the worlds far more audacious than anything I've seen published, but things just get a little muddled. The stakes get confusing because a world's rules aren't defined, or a character has an emotional explosion too soon in a conversation, thus causing the reader to feel a distance from them because a human being is not constantly at a level 10 of emotion.

I'd like to introduce a theory, the "your dad" theory. My dad is in his 50s, has a propensity for calling things "nonsense," and reads almost exclusively nonfiction. While building a "do it yourself" dog cage he threw the pieces to the ground and proclaimed "this is a rubiks cube of nonsense!" He told me once he often feels like he's in the nightmare tunnel from the 1907s Willy Wonka film, with chaos and nonsense swirling around him. Now, if I wanted to pitch my series Fall's End, a fantasy tale about talking animals, my dad would not be the target audience in mind, so I wouldn't really care if my dad "liked" it or not. However, I do have him read excerpts of my fantasy writings from time to time to check for "clarity." So, for example, if there is a hostage negotiation scene I have him read over, he might say "why is the anarchist character who kidnapped the prince a talking jaguar? What is this nonsense?" I don't mind this feedback, because again, I'm not looking for him to "like it." My follow-up question would be to ask "could you follow what was happening?" And if he said yes, I'd be ready to preview for people more close to my actual target audience (people I do chapter swaps with on Tumblr, where strangeness is more the norm). The idea is that if someone like my dad can follow the stakes, the progression and the escalating conflict of a scene, even if it's set in a bizarre world he has an aversion to immersing himself in, then my actual target audience who is more accustomed to strangeness will easily be able to follow.

"Your dad" doesn't have to be literally your father. Maybe a majority of you have dads who read Mark Z. Danielewski and host DnD in their garages, I don't know. Maybe some of you are dads. I don't know your life. However, "your dad" can just be anyone who usually doesn't like things that could be considered "nonsense." Obviously, don't pester someone to read your work if you don't know them well or if they are busy, but if you have a "your dad" in your life, I think making sure they can follow the action is a good challenge to make sure what you are writing is clear. If "your dad" can follow the action, anyone can, and thus, making sure your target audience can follow along will be that much easier.

I'm not finger wagging here about fantasy writing not being clear, I am relaying an issue that I myself have. I think in part because of my over-active imagination and in part because of my Attention Deficit Disorder, I just want to put all my ideas out without slowing down to make sure readers can follow, and showing chapters to my dad has actually really helped ground my writing. If you find this theory helpful great, if not feel free to disregard.
 

InkFinger

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Nothing wrong with the sermon, preach it. In point of fact, everyone has a challenge of their own, but this one is important. Your readers cannot read what's in your mind, so if it's not on the page, they do not have it. If you don't want them filling in the blanks without you, tell them.
 

veinglory

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I think the 'your dad/mom" phrase isn't that helpful because there's nothing innately "more in need of simple terms / clarity" about the generic older generation. (Some might even comment that in their day fantasy didn't have so much of this problem.)

So I take the point but I think you need a better explanatory catch phrase.
 

ChaseJxyz

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Clarity, a lot of the time, needs context. If I posted a part of my story in the middle without any sort of context, you're going to have a lot of questions that will make it hard to follow along. Who are these characters? Why are they mad at each other? Why are there talking birds? But if you read the story from the start and to that point then that won't be an issue (probably). If you watched Rise Of Skywalker without knowing ANYTHING about Star Wars, then you're going to be super confused. Who's Palpatine? Why's it a big deal he's back? What's this Jedi training all about? So it's not fair to compare an excerpt you've read here with a book you're reading in its entirity.

Unfortunately your theory doesn't work very well for me. My mother believed that all fiction was stupid and a waste of time, because it "wasn't real" and not about real things. Why should you get invested in a plot or a character if they never actually existed? How does that help you in your day-to-day life or to manage a house? Obviously her logic is incredibly flawed, but when I hear your dad say "this is nonsense," this is the only thing that I can think about...and I really don't care what a person thinks about my work if they think it's all a stupid waste of time.
 

veinglory

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It also occurs to me that as a person who seeks out complex non-Earth speculative high fantasy, I go in not expecting it all to make sense at once. Exploring a new world is part of that subgenre and the worlds are too complex to make sense from the jump. So long as the POV character is oriented and I get the gist of what they are doing it's not a problem for me. What you need to do depends somewhat on that the books cover, shelving, and target audience would be.
 

lizmonster

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Clarity, a lot of the time, needs context. If I posted a part of my story in the middle without any sort of context, you're going to have a lot of questions that will make it hard to follow along. Who are these characters? Why are they mad at each other? Why are there talking birds? But if you read the story from the start and to that point then that won't be an issue (probably).

This.

I think the "clarity test" can be useful at the very start of a book, maybe. But I also worry that writers new to fantasy tend to overthink this, resulting in the dreaded infodump.

I also suspect it depends on the reader. I tend to think visually, so I want to be able to picture where people are, how they're moving, that sort of thing. Other readers don't parse stories the same way.

I think what OP is getting at, really, is different types of critters. Not all your crit partners have to be into your genre if they can help you understand where your narrative structure is falling down. That said, I don't ask people who haven't liked my stuff to read; it turns into a chore for both of us. :)
 

Roxxsmom

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I'd say the issues you describe are common in rough drafts (and new writers) in any genre. Getting the story elements to gel, including the "rules" of the world the characters navigate, is always a challenge, as is getting dialog that moves the story forward and provides needed context and information without either dragging on too long or being too "on the nose." There are, perhaps, more things the reader might take for granted about the rules in a contemporary novel, but there are always going to be elements particular to a setting, profession, or family situation that may go without saying to a pov character (and more dangerously go without saying to the author) but be odd to at least some readers.

There have been countless threads in the SFF forums over the years here on AW about the best way to incorporate world building and back story into a fantasy or SF story without resorting to lengthy info dumps that jerk the reader out of the story. Best practices vary depending on narrative viewpoint, story pacing, and writing style.

A common pitfall of first-time fantasy writers is to try and explain too much. It's really common for one to post a huge, dry info dump (that reads like a history text or religious scripture) about how their world started, or an elaborate treatise on the the world's god and religion, or the backstory for some war or history in their world (generally accompanied by a "what do you think of this idea?" post), and it means absolutely nothing without characters and a story taking place in that setting.

However, I've found if you leave too many tantalizing little nuggets unexplained, even at the start of a story, the kinds of things a character really wouldn't bother to dwell on, explain, or ponder in real life, some readers really hate it too. They want me to describe why the character is upset that her brother is wearing the wrong colors during the Midnight Aurora ceremony, or why they have her great grandmother's mummy on display in the dining hall, or why the protagonist is so concerned about the way her hair is braided, and they are not at all "patient" for those little things to become more apparent later in the story.

Or maybe some readers don't really like fantasy set in societies that have different "rules" or "norms" than our own does or that doesn't correspond with an exact time and place in our own history. I think we all have upper limits of tolerance there. I can think of one fantasy trilogy I couldn't read past the first book (and that was hard going), because the world was so weird and alien I couldn't relate to or understand its rules.
 
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Chris P

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I think what OP is getting at, really, is different types of critters. Not all your crit partners have to be into your genre if they can help you understand where your narrative structure is falling down.

This was my thought. I've gotten diametrically opposed input in SYW; one person was totally lost while another thought there was too much detail. So it goes. It doesn't take a specialist in the genre to point out legitimate issues, but I also can't take all input at equal value.

The trap for me is writing to assuage hypothetical criticism someone might give. I give myself a test: can I name an actual person who has said these exact things about this piece of writing? Until I can say yes, and name that person and what they said, I'm likely dealing with my imagination. Once someone--an actual person--provides input, I can evaluate it on its merits. I need to remember (and it's tough) that not all input is helpful, and if I try to take it all I am writing by committee at best, or trying to please an unpleasable critic (who might not ever actually read the book on their own or even actually exist) at worst.
 
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ConnorMuldowney

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I think the 'your dad/mom" phrase isn't that helpful because there's nothing innately "more in need of simple terms / clarity" about the generic older generation. (Some might even comment that in their day fantasy didn't have so much of this problem.)

So I take the point but I think you need a better explanatory catch phrase.

You're right. Don't know if "dad" is the best word here, if I think of something more accurate I will edit the thread content and the title. Thank you for your feedback, I appreciate it
 

Albedo

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Maybe just a 'disinterested reader'? One maybe not a genre aficionado, but with a general interest in (and understanding of the concept of) fiction. Who maybe doesn't get why you're writing about hipster dinosaurs and not normal people, but still likes you as a person, knows what a story is, and can give honest feedback? Obviously you need feedback from genre aficionados as well, cos a normie is just not going to get some things. But a Dad reviewer can be good to have.

I haven't worried about being too vague about my setting since I read Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Because no-one will ever be quite as opaque as Gene Wolfe on a roll.

Whenever I hear about people who don't get the concept of fiction, I can only think of those aliens from Galaxy Quest, sorry.
 

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I haven't worried about being too vague about my setting since I read Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Because no-one will ever be quite as opaque as Gene Wolfe on a roll.

I didn't do drugs until I read BotNS, and even then I only thought I did.

Regarding "Dad reviewers": I think there's a huge difference between dispassionate critical reviews, and "what the hell is this happy horse shit?!" reviews. I seek the former, and actively avoid the latter.

Unfortunately, I got one of the latter when, against my better judgment, and after being enthusiastically lobbied by a co-worker to give her a sample of what I was writing, I did. I knew this person didn't read SF/F, but she assured me that "fiction is fiction". Really bad idea. She was brutal in a "you have no business defiling the art of literature, this is complete crap" way. Whereas, I'd had a largely complimentary, detailed rejection on submission from a well-respected SF/F outlet, so I knew that what she was saying was not entirely true.

So, I realllly caution genre-writers to not ask for reviews from people unfamiliar with your genre, or to know and trust them very well, or be certain in advance that you know how thick your authorial skin is.

I'd encourage everyone to find one unabashed "cheer leader" to offset your critical reviewers. Personally, that's been as valuable to me as good critical reviews, because without the occasional cheerleading I sometimes just get into a self-critical funk and just stop writing.
 
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litdawg

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So, I realllly caution genre-writers to not ask for reviews from people unfamiliar with your genre, or to know and trust them very well, or be certain in advance that you know how thick your authorial skin is.

I'd encourage everyone to find one unabashed "cheer leader" to offset your critical reviewers. Personally, that's been as valuable to me as good critical reviews, because without the occasional cheerleading I sometimes just get into a self-critical funk and just stop writing.

I heartily second this advice. I've experienced this too.
 

TrapperViper

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So, I realllly caution genre-writers to not ask for reviews from people unfamiliar with your genre, or to know and trust them very well, or be certain in advance that you know how thick your authorial skin is.

This is good advice, but not universal. AW has a wealth of writers and readers across genres, but some more than others. If I had waited to find critters experienced in my genre I don't think i would have received the same level of support i did. When someone is just starting out...there are so many areas of potential improvement that are easily addressable by critters regardless of their experience in the genre.
 
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