Covid-19 | Coronavirus September 2020

Lyv

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On my street, I constantly see neighbors chatting, at normal social distance, often with children. Sometimes the stroller is between them so the child is right under the nose of the person who does not live in their household. A lot of people walk down my street to get to the beach, and I used to look up to see the dogs and little ones. Now, I can't stand seeing zero compliance with masks or distancing, so I hardly even go out on my porch. I've been thinking about droplets falling down toward children for a long time now.

IMO Trump enjoys causing pain and suffering, so I think he wants to kill as many of us as possible. He just wants the numbers fudged so it doesn't hurt him (and, yes, I know about the Woodward tapes, but I can't even talk about those yet). Today's "lemme kill more people" from Trump is this:

White House orders end to COVID-19 airport screenings for international travelers

As of Monday, however, international flights will no longer be funneled into select airports for screening purposes and all screenings will come to a halt, according to communications and sources. All screenings and rerouting of select international flights will cease at exactly 12:01 a.m. on Monday, Sept. 14.

Currently, travelers upon arrival to the United States are sent to health screeners who take their temperatures and conduct a basic health screening with questions about typical COVID-19 symptoms. After the health screening, passengers proceed through passport control and customs.

One aspect of the screening is that travelers provide contact information, which can be used to perform contact tracing for infections. Without that information, it likely won’t be possible to contact passengers on a flight who may have potentially been exposed to someone infected with COVID-19.

The orders to cease prescreening operations came from the White House, with strict orders to keep the information secret until a public announcement is made. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, the various agencies — and contractors — involved in the airport screening operations are working frantically to prepare for Monday’s shutdown.
 

Roxxsmom

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Many people have relaxed their guard.

My brother is coming into town, briefly, because they are moving their niece back up to UCD where she will be living in an apartment with 3 roomies and attending online classes at the university. The apartment was already reserved in Feb and the landlords in Davis are not giving refunds. Anyway, it's probably safer for her to be off at college being exposed while living with young, healthy room mates, rather than living at home and bringing it home to her folks.

I get the feeling life is slowly returning to normal for my brother's family. The other two niece's sports practices are resuming, they are going on dates with their boyfriends (and I doubt they are smooching with masks on), though I think their high school is still online. Okay, sports practices can be done safely, outside, with distancing for many sports.

My brother is an oncologist, so he takes coronavirus seriously. We swap videos and articles about it, and we both rant about Trump and his idiocy. If he gave it to one of his patients, they could die. I know he's careful with PPE.

But I'm still stressed about the visit. I get this feeling they don't take the social distancing thing as seriously as we do. They want to go out for lunch, and I've pointed out that restaurants here are closed except patio dining, but the tables are still pretty close together, and you can't eat with a mask on, and when we go to do curbside pickup at these places, we see people in the parking lot standing close together with their masks down talking while they are lined up waiting to be seated.

So instead maybe we will get takeout and eat at a park or on a patio sometimes. But I still feel like their overall exposure levels are higher than ours have been, since they are a family of five with three daughters who haven't completely curtailed their social lives. My bro is adamant that healthy young adults have only the teeniest chance of dying of this, and he is correct, but why does everyone seem to forget those healthy young adults no one is worried about can still carry it and bring it home to their not so young and not so perfectly healthy parents and relatives?

But it's awkward to be firm with relatives, especially when one is an MD who thinks you might be being a bit "too" careful.
 

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I am young and have a good immune system (almost too good, since allergies to everything). I am not worried about covid because I might get sick for a week or two, or the ~1% chance I'd die. I'm not even too concerned about the chance to end up in the hospital. What I AM worried about is permanent damage to my body. Lungs, heart, kidneys, neurological problems. I could never, ever forgive myself if I become permanently disabled because I wanted to go eat at a restaurant.

I'm transgender, so I'm already investing a lot of time, money, and pain to have a body that I am even comfortable having. I can't do things like swim or go to the gym or even put myself on the dating scene until I have my surgeries (which are on hold indefinitely because of covid). If I get covid and my body becomes irreparably harmed, then I might not be well enough for those "elective" surgeries. I might not be healthy enough to even do hormones anymore. Or I might still get those, but I can't breathe well enough to work out or do physical activities I want to do. If that happens...then what was the point of all that? It's not something I want to think about.

I think your brother is forgetting just how big his "social circle" really is. The two nieces have probably 5-10 people on each sport team, +1 each for boyfriends, and they have families, and maybe jobs and sports, too. It grows, fast. There was that one wedding where no one wore a mask and none of them died, but people close to them ended up dying. Your brother could be doing everything right, but if a boyfriend's mom does something stupid then it can get to him. He can control his own actions, but not those of others, and those are the people that end up getting people ill. I'm sorry he's not realizing this. Eating takeout at a park is definitely the best thing you can do right now.
 

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I am young and have a good immune system (almost too good, since allergies to everything). I am not worried about covid because I might get sick for a week or two, or the ~1% chance I'd die. I'm not even too concerned about the chance to end up in the hospital. What I AM worried about is permanent damage to my body. Lungs, heart, kidneys, neurological problems. I could never, ever forgive myself if I become permanently disabled because I wanted to go eat at a restaurant.

I'm transgender, so I'm already investing a lot of time, money, and pain to have a body that I am even comfortable having. I can't do things like swim or go to the gym or even put myself on the dating scene until I have my surgeries (which are on hold indefinitely because of covid). If I get covid and my body becomes irreparably harmed, then I might not be well enough for those "elective" surgeries. I might not be healthy enough to even do hormones anymore. Or I might still get those, but I can't breathe well enough to work out or do physical activities I want to do. If that happens...then what was the point of all that? It's not something I want to think about.

I think your brother is forgetting just how big his "social circle" really is. The two nieces have probably 5-10 people on each sport team, +1 each for boyfriends, and they have families, and maybe jobs and sports, too. It grows, fast. There was that one wedding where no one wore a mask and none of them died, but people close to them ended up dying. Your brother could be doing everything right, but if a boyfriend's mom does something stupid then it can get to him. He can control his own actions, but not those of others, and those are the people that end up getting people ill. I'm sorry he's not realizing this. Eating takeout at a park is definitely the best thing you can do right now.

This is the thing that makes me anxious. As my spouse put it: it's a bit like serial monogamy without adequate protection and testing. Even if you're only socializing/sleeping with one person or family at a time, the risks add up over time. Sooner or later you run into someone with a venereal disease (or in this case, Covid-19). And yes, when you live with someone (especially when you are a kid or young adult living with parents), you have no control over how careful they are. It's also really hard to stop teenagers from doing dumb things when they are out with their peers, because it's just too easy for them to lowball the risks. I see lots of them at parks, in groups within 6' of each other where only one or two of them are wearing masks, for instance. Outside is less risky, but prolonged close exposure still confers risk, especially with lots of talking.

Which is why I've given up on the dog park. No one wears a mask there, lots of people stand close and talk (especially risky behavior) and sometimes I do have to get close to other people for a moment to give my dog a drink or to grab him if he's being a bit too friendly and jumping on people.

I haven't heard of any dog park or youth sports outbreak clusters, but then our contact tracing is so cruddy in the US we probably miss a lot of the infection sources.

I hear you about not wanting to screw up your body, and I'm sorry the virus has put your gender confirmation surgeries on hold.
 
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Kat M

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I am young and have a good immune system (almost too good, since allergies to everything). I am not worried about covid because I might get sick for a week or two, or the ~1% chance I'd die. I'm not even too concerned about the chance to end up in the hospital. What I AM worried about is permanent damage to my body. Lungs, heart, kidneys, neurological problems. I could never, ever forgive myself if I become permanently disabled because I wanted to go eat at a restaurant.

THIS. Me too. People seem to ignore that potentiality and it scares the living daylights out of me.

Sorry about your surgeries. MaeZe, hoping for the best possible outcome w/the awkwardness.
 

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I am young and have a good immune system (almost too good, since allergies to everything). I am not worried about covid because I might get sick for a week or two, or the ~1% chance I'd die. I'm not even too concerned about the chance to end up in the hospital. What I AM worried about is permanent damage to my body. Lungs, heart, kidneys, neurological problems. I could never, ever forgive myself if I become permanently disabled because I wanted to go eat at a restaurant.

I'm transgender, so I'm already investing a lot of time, money, and pain to have a body that I am even comfortable having. I can't do things like swim or go to the gym or even put myself on the dating scene until I have my surgeries (which are on hold indefinitely because of covid). If I get covid and my body becomes irreparably harmed, then I might not be well enough for those "elective" surgeries. I might not be healthy enough to even do hormones anymore. Or I might still get those, but I can't breathe well enough to work out or do physical activities I want to do. If that happens...then what was the point of all that? It's not something I want to think about.

I think your brother is forgetting just how big his "social circle" really is. The two nieces have probably 5-10 people on each sport team, +1 each for boyfriends, and they have families, and maybe jobs and sports, too. It grows, fast. There was that one wedding where no one wore a mask and none of them died, but people close to them ended up dying. Your brother could be doing everything right, but if a boyfriend's mom does something stupid then it can get to him. He can control his own actions, but not those of others, and those are the people that end up getting people ill. I'm sorry he's not realizing this. Eating takeout at a park is definitely the best thing you can do right now.

Forget about everything you did in the past. Just change what you do in the future.

After a couple of weeks the past exposures will be passed, behind you. Reassess and go forward with your new knowledge.
 

Lyv

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I've been yammering on about the long-term effects of coronavirus, both what is known so far and that there is still so much to learn. But because every medical problem I have is from a childhood illness (the treatment), I've been focused on this. I think we're in big trouble, as a society, because of what this thing can do long-term to even young, healthy people, even those who had mild or asymptomatic cases. Unlike countries with good leadership, our numbers are out of control, and a good percentage of those people are going to have lasting, perhaps permanent, damage.

I've been shaken by reports of cardiac, lung, and other organ damage, as well as neurological issues, even brain damage. Then I read this:

"The primary trend across the Covid-19 long haulers that Greenspan is working with is a condition called dysautonomia, a condition marked by a miscommunication between the autonomic nervous system and the rest of the body.

The autonomic nervous system regulates automatic body functions such as breathing, sleep and digestion. When it's not working, symptoms can present in myriad different ways, depending on the person."

My autonomic system doesn't work (my diagnosis is autonomic insufficiency, which for me is progressive), and it's the number one reason I stopped life-extending measures and then, before coronavirus, was, with the backing of my team, hastening my death. It's miserable. It's why all day, every day, because I touch something cooler or warmer than the air, or go to a room that's a little different temperature, or feel any draft (can be my husband walking by), or eat or drink anything, my body goes "haywire" (says my PCP) and I have about two hours of either violent shivering or badly overheating (and I can't sweat). Sometimes because it's cold, my body tries to cool me down. I once got a heat rash because it was cold.


That's just temperature, and it's only a fraction of what happens. Every single thing your body does automatically can be affected. Respiration, heart rate. And when my body does go haywire, which it does almost constantly, my brain frazzles, causing what I assume feels like a panic attack. For hours. A few things are simply, like I always have something in my eye because I don't blink properly. There are so many other ways it impacts me. I'm an extreme case, but even mild ones aren't fun. You do not want this. You don't want anyone you care about to have this. Trying to be my own autonomic system is hell. Pure and simple. Please, please, take this seriously and get the word out as much as you can about possible ongoing effects. I don't want to scare those who have or had coronavirus or know someone who does. Like I said, my case is extreme, even among those with similar medical histories. But please, please spread the word about long-term effects if you can.
 

Roxxsmom

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I've been yammering on about the long-term effects of coronavirus, both what is known so far and that there is still so much to learn. But because every medical problem I have is from a childhood illness (the treatment), I've been focused on this. I think we're in big trouble, as a society, because of what this thing can do long-term to even young, healthy people, even those who had mild or asymptomatic cases. Unlike countries with good leadership, our numbers are out of control, and a good percentage of those people are going to have lasting, perhaps permanent, damage.

I've been shaken by reports of cardiac, lung, and other organ damage, as well as neurological issues, even brain damage. Then I read this:

"The primary trend across the Covid-19 long haulers that Greenspan is working with is a condition called dysautonomia, a condition marked by a miscommunication between the autonomic nervous system and the rest of the body.

The autonomic nervous system regulates automatic body functions such as breathing, sleep and digestion. When it's not working, symptoms can present in myriad different ways, depending on the person."

My autonomic system doesn't work (my diagnosis is autonomic insufficiency, which for me is progressive), and it's the number one reason I stopped life-extending measures and then, before coronavirus, was, with the backing of my team, hastening my death. It's miserable. It's why all day, every day, because I touch something cooler or warmer than the air, or go to a room that's a little different temperature, or feel any draft (can be my husband walking by), or eat or drink anything, my body goes "haywire" (says my PCP) and I have about two hours of either violent shivering or badly overheating (and I can't sweat). Sometimes because it's cold, my body tries to cool me down. I once got a heat rash because it was cold.


That's just temperature, and it's only a fraction of what happens. Every single thing your body does automatically can be affected. Respiration, heart rate. And when my body does go haywire, which it does almost constantly, my brain frazzles, causing what I assume feels like a panic attack. For hours. A few things are simply, like I always have something in my eye because I don't blink properly. There are so many other ways it impacts me. I'm an extreme case, but even mild ones aren't fun. You do not want this. You don't want anyone you care about to have this. Trying to be my own autonomic system is hell. Pure and simple. Please, please, take this seriously and get the word out as much as you can about possible ongoing effects. I don't want to scare those who have or had coronavirus or know someone who does. Like I said, my case is extreme, even among those with similar medical histories. But please, please spread the word about long-term effects if you can.

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this, Lyv. It's horrible.

I agree that it's foolish to be cavalier about a virus when we don't yet know all the possible long-term effects, or even how common they might be. What is especially concerning is that some have them even after very mild or asymptomatic cases.

With our health care system being so unequal and inefficient already, and with our aging population already putting a strain on health care resources, I'm not sure we'll be able to handle the increase in demand. Will Americans finally embrace single-payer health care of some kind? Hard so say, even among Democrats, anything that smacks of the "S" word evokes fear and anxiety. I guess it's terror over a loss of control, though I can't imagine anything more terrifying than having a disease and health insurance insecurity (I'm not sure this is a term, but it ought to be the way food insecurity and housing insecurity are) being so common, even among people who currently get it via their jobs.
 

Lyv

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Thanks, Roxxsmom. I am frantic trying to get through to people. With me, you can name any body part or system, and I can tell you all the things wrong with it (in my case, radiation damage is progressive, so I keep getting new stuff almost daily). When information about lasting effects started to trickle out and there were so many different sites and kinds of damage, it chilled me. While not everyone will get every effect and some might not get any, I truly fear there will be millions of people left with chronic, overlapping, and possibly debilitating conditions. I had to take the radiation and chemo to live, but no one needs to go to a restaurant or bar or party and risk all kinds of lasting or permanent medical problems. And yet, there is almost to talk about lasting effects.

I can't get through to even many who do believe it's a serious virus. There's no hope, I don't think, for the Trump true believers. I mean, they don't see the disconnect between his words that it's a hoax (and his words that it isn't and that it's serious) and his actions of getting tested constantly, keeping people away from him, and having a nice big buffer zone between him and the public.

After that huge rally yesterday, a reporter asked if he was afraid of contracting coronavirus from the big, indoor rally with few attendees masked:

“I’m on a stage and it’s very far away,” Trump said. “And so I’m not at all concerned.”

“I’m more concerned about how close you are, to be honest,” Trump told a Review-Journal reporter who thought she was socially distanced.

So, he knows it's something to be concerned about and avoided, but tells his rabid, willfully ignorant throngs to go maskless, cram in close together, and live life as usual, and they just...do. He says the quiet part loud, tacitly admits he knows everyone there is risking their lives, and they still just worship and obey him. It's creepy, but so damn tragic and dangerous.
 

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The new reporting procedures seem to be working exactly as planned -- it very much appears that new cases are dropping off, and so are deaths. So everyone -- including the reporter on NPR this morning when I came to work -- is lulled into a false sense of security.

I'm already seeing mask compliance dropping off, locally, partly due to false confidence that the virus is fading away, and partly (I suspect) due to hyper-attentiveness fatigue.
 

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The new reporting procedures seem to be working exactly as planned -- it very much appears that new cases are dropping off, and so are deaths. So everyone -- including the reporter on NPR this morning when I came to work -- is lulled into a false sense of security.

I'm already seeing mask compliance dropping off, locally, partly due to false confidence that the virus is fading away, and partly (I suspect) due to hyper-attentiveness fatigue.

I'm afraid you're right. There is this odd push-pull effect with this pandemic, where numbers start to improve a bit, so people think it's over, but of course it isn't, and the numbers surge again. I suspect it has to do with the way we are wired up to assess risk and exercise caution. We're good at knowing when the bear is done chasing us, or the fire is out, or the flood has receded, so we can go back to our normal activities. But pandemics go on, and on, especially with a virus like this one where it spreads easily, has a long incubation period, and approximately half of those infected don't show obvious symptoms.

And if we succeed at flattening the curve, people die in the background, in hospitals, without all the blaring sirens and overflowing morgues as they saw in NY for a while. So many people continue to think it's not a big deal--no worse than a normal flu season, unless they or someone they know personally gets really sick with it. "Do you actually know anyone who has died of this?" many of my relatively privileged friends say.

What's scary are the people who say that all this social distancing and mask wearing is just prolonging the agony, and we should just all get it and get it over with, the way it happened in past pandemics. Aside from this not actually being the case (the plague came in many waves, as has smallpox and other nasty bugs), it's just idiotic, because so many more will die this way, and because we don't even know if immunity lasts long enough to allow the virus to be snuffed out before people who had it earlier start getting it a second time.
 
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The new reporting procedures seem to be working exactly as planned -- it very much appears that new cases are dropping off, and so are deaths. So everyone -- including the reporter on NPR this morning when I came to work -- is lulled into a false sense of security.

I'm already seeing mask compliance dropping off, locally, partly due to false confidence that the virus is fading away, and partly (I suspect) due to hyper-attentiveness fatigue.

The local NPR station's news site always has cautionary headlines when reporting stats for Minnesota; it's usually along the lines of "Well, yeah, but..." (today: Hospitalizations at two-month low; cases rise). And you actually have to read the article to get to this part:

Despite the generally positive trends, health officials have warned community spread with no precisely known origin is growing in Minnesota, driven by informal get-togethers, weddings and other social events where people are not wearing masks, socially distancing or taking other precautions to stem the disease.
Readin's fer yellerbellies!
 

Lyv

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Many of us guessed this was the case:

C.D.C. Didn’t Write Testing Guidance Published on Its Website, Officials Say

A heavily criticized recommendation from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention last month about who should be tested for the coronavirus was not written by C.D.C. scientists and was posted to the agency’s website despite their serious objections, according to several people familiar with the matter as well as internal documents obtained by The New York Times.

The guidance said it was not necessary to test people without symptoms of Covid-19 even if they had been exposed to the virus. It came at a time when public health experts were pushing for more testing rather than less, and administration officials told The Times that the document was a C.D.C. product and had been revised with input from the agency’s director, Dr. Robert Redfield.


But officials told The Times this week that the health department did the rewriting itself and then “dropped” it into the C.D.C.’s public website, flouting the agency’s strict scientific review process.

Hey, who cares if this kills a bunch of people? Trump wants to keep the job he's incapable of doing, past enriching himself. The GOP is enabling mass murder. It may not fit the legal definition, but it's the tragic reality.
 

Lyv

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Ah, that explains the talking point I've been seeing all over that in all states with Democratic governors, the elderly were being rounded up and executed. No, really. It's a shame Cuomo made a terrible error in judgment and good that he walked it back. It's also a shame that people like DeSantis and Kemp didn't take the lessons those of us in the Northeast learned the hard way, by getting the virus first, and also are only interested in the mistakes made in the early days to score political points.

I find it encouraging that Wednesday, I got an email from one of the largest medical systems in Massachusetts, affiliated with Brigham and Woman's hospital, announcing flu vaccine clinics and urging patients to schedule appointments. The next day, I got this update:

" Due to overwhelming interest, Brigham Health Flu Vaccine Clinic time slots are filling up rapidly. We apologize for the inconvenience.

With your health and safety in mind, we encourage you to consider these options:


1.) If you have an upcoming appointment already scheduled with a Brigham Health provider, ask your provider in advance of the appointment if you can also receive your flu vaccine during that time.


2.) Visit a local pharmacy such as CVS or Walgreens to obtain your flu shot. Health insurance companies are required to cover flu vaccines without charging a copayment or coinsurance, but may require you to receive the vaccine at a specific facility. Be sure to check your insurance company's requirements.




We are working on adding additional flu vaccine clinics."

It's unusual for the Brigham to recommend their clients go to CVS and Walgreens. It appears more people are going to get the shot, or they're getting it earlier.
 

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I agree. That's almost as terrible as mandating COVID-19 positive patients be sent back to nursing homes.

https://apnews.com/b29d0a5eb51a5aed21d5efe132c33374

Yes, that was incredibly stupid, but the story you linked is over two months old.

Since the beginning, there has been a lack of coherent, centralized leadership and coordination between different agencies and databases, and a desire by officials at all levels to believe the least alarming hypotheses about the virus and its patterns of spread instead of the more alarming ones (in terms of its contagiousness).

I don't know if we'll ever know how many extra deaths resulted from this ignorance, lack of leadership, and miscommunication, and from the tendency for public officials to err on the side of optimism and not pessimism when it comes to deciding which guidelines to follow, which scientific reports to credit. Not to excuse the bad choices, but NY state was in a horrific situation last spring with overflowing hospitals, and they had no safe place to release recovering nursing home patients, some of whom might have still been contagious. But imo they should have been more careful and more creative about finding places to quarantine these still recovering. Maybe those mostly unused hospital ships? Emergency field hospitals in warehouses or parks or stadiums? I suppose bureaucratic red tape prevented that too.

Hindsight is always 2020, but the most infuriating thing about this pandemic (in the US in particular) is how uncoordinated, disparate, and inconsistent the guidelines and policies still are, which has left state officials scrambling for solutions in the dark and (as always seems to happen) scrambling to cover their asses when their solutions fail.

I think we all know who is ultimately to blame for this--the man at the top who knew in Feb how dangerous this virus was and who chose to spread lies and conspiracy theories about it instead. Now we have a situation where something that should have brought us together has become so politicized many people still swear it's a hoax or a mild virus "like the flu" and think it's just fine to send their kids to school when they're Covid-19 positive months after we should have left the "scrambling in the dark" phase behind.

I don't blame Cuomo for that.
 

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The point is if you are going to ask for penalties for "criminal, maybe even malicious, negligence" you should ask for penalties across the board. Not just cases of convenience.
 

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The point is if you are going to ask for penalties for "criminal, maybe even malicious, negligence" you should ask for penalties across the board. Not just cases of convenience.

There's plenty of culpability to go around.

You think politicians making very poor, half-informed decisions when they were in the throes of a crisis with no good solution months ago is the moral equivalent of someone sending their own child to school knowing full well that child could infect other students and school employees. Fine, push for their prosecution and imprisonment, or make sure it is an issue, at least, that is brought up when they run for re-election.

I'm still not sure what the point of raising this now is, when there have been countless opportunities to point fingers and demand Cuomo's resignation and prosecution in these Covid threads going back months here on AW. Maybe there should be an inquest into the way everyone at all levels of government has handled various facets of this crisis. Maybe there should be criminal penalties for officials whose poor choices were made with either full knowledge or willful ignorance.

But the fact that a particular government official bungled things, or practiced criminal negligence (however you want to argue it), several months ago does not mean individual citizens shouldn't be held responsible for decisions they make now, when we know how long people can spread the virus and when asymptomatic transmission is common knowledge.

I am getting pretty tired of people, months into this crisis, saying they "didn't know" the quarantine period, or the incubation period, or that masks should cover your entire external respiratory system (not just your mouth), or that gathering with dozens or more people is a piss-poor idea right now, or that kids and young adults can indeed spread the virus, even when asymptomatically infected.

But maybe I'm just cranky because about 5% of my students (taking the class online) said they "didn't know" when their first exam was being given, even though it was on their syllabus, posted on the class website, sent to them in e-mails, and announced three times in the two weeks leading up to the exam.

I've had it up to here with people at all levels not knowing things when the information was flapped in their faces for weeks (or months).
 

mccardey

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I am getting pretty tired of people

Ain't that the truth, though?

Down here, in summer, the rips and currents on our surf beaches can be very dangerous, so we have flags on either side of them, and a Swim Between The Flags notion civil responsibility because of the risk to lifesavers if they have to go out and rescue the Very Stupid or Very Entitled.

I saw a lovely tweet today that said "Nobody's drowning, so why do we have to swim between the flags?" with the covid hashtag.

Fell immediately in love.
 

aurora borealis

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[snip]

I am getting pretty tired of people, months into this crisis, saying they "didn't know" the quarantine period, or the incubation period, or that masks should cover your entire external respiratory system (not just your mouth), or that gathering with dozens or more people is a piss-poor idea right now, or that kids and young adults can indeed spread the virus, even when asymptomatically infected.

[snip]

I've had it up to here with people at all levels not knowing things when the information was flapped in their faces for weeks (or months).

So much this.

I'm in Ontario, which is doing much better than comparably populated states in the US in terms of numbers of cases, but we're officially in our second wave now. While it's mostly because of the completely bungled return to school, a fair number of these rising cases are from people not following public health guidelines. At this point, with as many announcements and ads and everything that has been posted publicly and put on TV and on the radio, everybody knows that they should be wearing their mask (and wearing it covering it both their mouth and their nose). I just assume that somebody not wearing a mask in a place where they should be wearing a mask is just too inconsiderate of other people to slightly inconvenience themselves by putting on one. It makes me furious, because we've been in this pandemic for six months now, and we're not going to go back to normal any time soon if these people keep refusing to wear basic PPE.
 

Roxxsmom

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So much this.

I'm in Ontario, which is doing much better than comparably populated states in the US in terms of numbers of cases, but we're officially in our second wave now. While it's mostly because of the completely bungled return to school, a fair number of these rising cases are from people not following public health guidelines. At this point, with as many announcements and ads and everything that has been posted publicly and put on TV and on the radio, everybody knows that they should be wearing their mask (and wearing it covering it both their mouth and their nose). I just assume that somebody not wearing a mask in a place where they should be wearing a mask is just too inconsiderate of other people to slightly inconvenience themselves by putting on one. It makes me furious, because we've been in this pandemic for six months now, and we're not going to go back to normal any time soon if these people keep refusing to wear basic PPE.

Europe is having a resurgence of cases too

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/17/9141...-coronavirus-cases-are-rising-in-europe-again

The World Health Organization warned on Thursday that weekly coronavirus case numbers are rising in Europe at a higher rate than during the pandemic's peak in March.

At a virtual news conference, Dr. Hans Kluge, regional director of WHO in Europe, warned, "We do have a very serious situation unfolding before us."

"Weekly cases have exceeded those reported when the pandemic first peaked in Europe in March," he said. "Last week, the region's weekly tally exceeded 300,000 patients."

Wearing a green face mask, Kluge said, "Strict lockdown measures in the spring and early summer yielded good results. Our efforts, our sacrifices paid off. In June, cases hit an all-time low."

Given that very few countries have waited to open until they had no cases at all, of course there will be a new surge of cases once they open up. The first wave was generated from just a few cases, so second and third waves can certainly springboard off "low" numbers of cases that were still occurring when they re-opened.

I've seen the way people are behaving in Europe and the UK on the news--people not wearing masks anymore and certainly not staying home or avoiding crowds.

I am beginning to think that human nature is incapable of dealing with this kind of prolonged crisis. Because as soon as case numbers drop to something less catastrophic, people will chafe at restrictions and stop wearing masks. Which mean numbers will surge again.

Not that some cultures aren't worse than others. It appears that the UK has had similar issues as the US with mask compliance and they were late to the table with passing and enfocring laws requiring them.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...p-workers-fear-asking-customers-to-wear-masks

https://www.eppingforestguardian.co...police-arent-fining-people-not-wearing-masks/

Some people are just stupid, though he does have a point about allowing people to go to restaurants and pubs without masks and allowing people to take them off to eat on trains. There is no safe way to eat or drink in public right now, at least not around other people, and that just needs to be halted.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...es-to-wear-face-mask-despite-uk-laws-12072712

A recent study in the US found that having eaten in a restaurant was a major risk factor among people who get Covid-19 now.

https://www.livescience.com/restaurant-dining-covid-19-risk.html
 

MaeZe

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Can you imagine how awful this child must feel?

MMWR (CDC): Transmission Dynamics of COVID-19 Outbreaks Associated with Child Care Facilities — Salt Lake City, Utah, April–July 2020
Twelve children acquired COVID-19 in child care facilities. Transmission was documented from these children to at least 12 (26%) of 46 nonfacility contacts (confirmed or probable cases). One parent was hospitalized. Transmission was observed from two of three children with confirmed, asymptomatic COVID-19.
My heart aches for this kid.

I understand that parents really want their kids back in school. But devastating some families is too high a price.
 
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Roxxsmom

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What a horrible thing. And yeah, that poor kid. Kids are great at blaming themselves for stuff that affects their parents, and in this case they really did give the virus to their parent. It wasn't the kid's fault, of course, because they had no choice in the matter. But the sense of guilt will be there.