Vulgarity/Violence in Christian Media

gduber

Registered
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
tl;dr: Life is vulgar. While it can be utlized excessively, some degree of vagarity adds authenticity and enhances almost any narrative.

I'm currently having an ongoing debate with a friend about the content of my manuscript that she disagrees with. The story's main character is Christian, but the non-religious characters occasionally say the s-word and allude to intimate situations in their dialogue. The scenes/dialogue in the story do not involve sexual intercourse (nobody is naked or using hands on body parts or speaking in great detail about it). There is a hopefully-humorous scene where a woman in her underwear is pursuing the main character, but she isn't trying to sleep with him (and hopefully it works better in the context of the story than that description implies). Again, clothes on, no intercourse or even kissing. My friend feels that these words/scenes are not proper for a Christian-themed story.

She cites the old movie/tv-shows that told good stories without the use of graphic violence or vulgarity. My argument is that those characters, while memorable, rarely feel authentic (to me). We understand that they are The Bad Guy, but we don't really know how bad because the most we ever see are other characters reacting to the aftermath (describing what happened while looking down at the out-of-frame victim) or shadows interacting behind a curtain. We rely on our imaginations to fill in the details. They lack depth.

Also, visual media is different from literature. A writer simply can't afford to rely on the reader's imagination to fill in some aspects of his/her narrative without risking the loss of emotional impact. Most of the time, a reader must be shown in order to understand. Is it important for a reader to know the details of a sex scene to understand how passionate the characters are for each other? I don't think so. I've never personally encountered a descriptive sex scene in literature that contributed meaningfully to the narrative. In fact, they always feel unnecessary to me. Is it important for a reader to know what level of viciousness the murderous antagonist is capable of? Yes, because it enhances the suspense and makes the hero's victory feel more rewarding. In real-life investigations, it's important to know how many times a murder victim was stabbed. Did the murderer hate the victim for some reason, or did he just want his wallet? Knowing that information is helpful for investigators and, I believe, helpful for a reader in connecting with the story.

I feel like Christian media (speaking mainly of television/film) could use more vulgarity and gore. I'm not talking about Tarantino levels, but the films that I've seen always feel overly sanitized. One facet of my position is that we don't live in a sanitized world. We hear vulgar words and are exposed to grotesque situations to varying degrees on a regular basis. It's part of everyday life for most people. The other facet is that the Bible is far from sanitized (depending on what translation one chooses to read). God did not use vulgar language (at least in the King James Version of the Bible, I don't know about how vulgarity levels in the original Greek/Hebrew texts), but He certainly did not sugar-coat characters or situations. As a result, we have a better understanding of the events and characters that He wants us to learn from. I'm not saying that anything I write would be equal to the Bible, but I do believe many Christians writers overly sanitize their work and harm their narratives.
 

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
873
Reaction score
562
Location
California
Ah geez, next you're gonna want left-handed assassins disemboweling middle eastern despots on-screen or a young widow widow taking the clothes off a rich, drunk man in the middle of the night.
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,211
Reaction score
15,811
Location
Australia.
God did not use vulgar language (at least in the King James Version of the Bible, I don't know about how vulgarity levels in the original Greek/Hebrew texts), but He certainly did not sugar-coat characters or situations.

I'm not sure if you're asking for an opinion or just letting us know how you feel about things, but if it's the first I'd say William Tyndale (be still, my heart) had a lot of influence on word-choice in the KJV, and if it's the second - thanks for sharing. If I had to choose I'd agree with you, but when it comes to religion, if it helps her and if it's not hurting anyone else, your friend gets to think what she thinks, too. So that's fine.

I don't like televised sport, but I don't get to make the TV rules. Although, if I did we'd see a lot more of this sort of thing, let me tell you. (VSFW ;) )

You write what feels good to you, is my point. Let your friend read what feels good to her.
 

Maryn

Sees All
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,429
Reaction score
25,447
Location
Snow Cave
(What a good post, mccardey!)
 

gduber

Registered
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
@mccardey Yeah I was just hoping to get other people's opinions on the subject. Thanks for the video link, I haven't watched it all yet but I would definitely watch that sort of thing before sports.
 

Kat M

Ooh, look! String!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
951
Reaction score
627
Location
Puget Sound
OK, I have to nerd out here. I have heard that the original Greek of Philippians 3:8 "I count them all as garbage," the Greek word for "garbage" is equivalent to sh** in English. However, I did a quick Google and on Bible Hub it only says that the word can mean "dung," and I'm not a Greek scholar . . .

Getting back to your original point, I'm essentially with you. As a consumer of stories, I want stories to feel real. I want characters who sin—not for titillating depictions of sin, but because that is reality. It's impossible to explore themes of our common humanity, or such Christian themes as grace and redemption, without having real authentic sin in the stories.

And one of my reasons for that is precisely what Litdawg said: even a cursory reading of the Bible shows deeply flawed, deeply human characters, some of whom get their just desserts and some who are given grace.

That said, if you want to write as you say you do, and market in the Christian publishing world, you might have a bit of an uphill climb. It's not my expertise, though, so I'll stop with the publishing advice right now.
 

Belle_91

With her nose stuck in a book
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
2,677
Reaction score
682
Location
Tennessee
There's a well-known Christian author who writes about historical novels where I live. Tamera Alexander. A couple of years ago--or maybe just last year, time has no concept now--she talked about writing a book about the Battle of Franklin, which was one of the bloodiest of the Civil War. I haven't read the book myself, but she said she wanted to accurately portray the battle so I suspect there is a fair amount of violence. I think she said it shocked some of her faithful readers and some reviewers. However, the book did get published.

According to the website, the book is With This Pledge. Maybe take a look at it and see how she handles violence. Keep in mind, it is within the historical context and violence is what war is.

Anyways, I have VERY limited knowledge on the Christian market, but I hope my example will help. Hopefully, this will give you the chance to see how other Christian authors handle violence.
 

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
873
Reaction score
562
Location
California
The biggest name Christian writers haven't traditionally published in Christian markets. Sheesh, Christians have only been able to have their fiction published by Christian publishing houses in any volume in the past forty years. So most Christians who have ever written fiction have been published in mainstream markets. So I think the framing of the OP's question is a little off. A forty year blip in niche marketing where "Christian fiction" was published by firms that explicitly narrowed their market share to Christian consumers is no basis for generalizations about what it is possible for a writer who is a Christian to accomplish.

And, yeah, Judges 19 and Ezekiel 23:20. [tiptoes out the door as flames lick up the wall]
 

E.F.B.

Stories, stories everywhere
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
6,351
Reaction score
1,829
Location
Valinor
Website
www.etsy.com
I'm not sure if you're asking for an opinion or just letting us know how you feel about things, but if it's the first I'd say William Tyndale (be still, my heart) had a lot of influence on word-choice in the KJV, and if it's the second - thanks for sharing. If I had to choose I'd agree with you, but when it comes to religion, if it helps her and if it's not hurting anyone else, your friend gets to think what she thinks, too. So that's fine.

I don't like televised sport, but I don't get to make the TV rules. Although, if I did we'd see a lot more of this sort of thing, let me tell you. (VSFW ;) )

You write what feels good to you, is my point. Let your friend read what feels good to her.
So much this.^ I have a friend who's a self published author and fellow Christian. I love her to pieces, especially her passion about her faith and her writing, but I can't read half of what she writes because it's either too intense or graphically violent for me. (Both those elements in a story can kick up anxiety for me so I have to be careful about reading such things.) Do I sometimes selfishly wish she'd tone it down a bit so I could read more of her work? Yeah. What stories of hers I have been able to read were really well done and I want to support her! But at the same time, I know she's writing what she feels called to write and feels morally okay with writing, so I'd never say anything to her about it. I just do what I can to encourage her in general, share on my socials about her books when she has a new release and such, and occasionally beta read for her if it's one of her works that I can handle.

As for myself, there's some violence in my WIPs (One MC almost dies of a stab wound) but I don't feel comfortable getting graphic about it. I'm basically like, "there was blood" and that's it. :p I hope to get my WIP with almost-dying MC published as Christian fiction and I don't feel my handling of the violence should cause any problems with that.

My friend on the other hand has self pubbed some of her books as Christian fiction, but her current series in progress that has graphic violence and some vulgarity, she's decided to publish as general fiction. Meanwhile, she recently signed with a small Christian publisher on a book that got rejection feedback from other publishers ranging from, "This was the darkest thing I've ever read," to, "This reads too young for YA." (The latter of which made everyone's head spin around because what? :p) So, just goes to show how varied different Christian publisher's tastes can be.
 

Yawn of Death

How did I get a pen mark there?
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2018
Messages
12
Reaction score
6
Location
In a tree
Website
aechandler.wixsite.com
Maybe your friend is thinking of Philippians 4:8 “Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” It sounds like your friend and my mother have a lot in common. My mother won’t read some of my work, because it looks at things she objects to, even if those things are portrayed as objectionable and are not necessarily the focus of the work.

I agree with other posters, that it depends on what market you want to sell to – Christian or secular, and then which publishers within those markets. You see horror publishers with a wide range of guidelines, from anything goes, to blood and gore only if it’s necessary to the story-line, to no violence or gore allowed in your horror story. Some allow violence but not sexual violence – every publisher is different. Christian publishers probably have this same sort of variety in their guidelines.

My novel was published by a secular publisher, while all the characters are Christian – it’s set in medieval Europe – and the topic of religion does come up, mostly subtly as part of the characters’ daily lives, but in some events it’s the main theme being examined. It’s about Robin Hood and, while it deals with Christianity more than most modern versions do, it doesn’t discuss Christianity as much as the original source material, which is absolutely steeped in Christian values and societal commentary.

When looking at publishers, it’s worth considering how Christian and mainstream audiences will interpret your work through different lenses. I think our society is losing its sense of nuance. People were protesting the filming of the American Psycho movie because it “glorified violence” when actually the movie portrays violence (and there is a LOT of it) as brutal and ugly. None of those people had seen the movie – obviously, because it was still being filmed – but they thought that just by having a movie showing violence that glorified violence. It seems like quite a few people have that same reaction to Christian fiction, where if there’s a character that’s misinterpreting Scripture and behaving hypocritically, then the book isn’t trying to have some kind of commentary on how different people incorporate their religion into their everyday lives in ways that may or may not be in line with God’s Word, but is actually advocating throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and instead of trying to properly understand Scripture and Christians’ personal relationships to it, that the message is simply “religion is bad.” I recently read a review of Jane Eyre where the reviewer thought that Charlotte Bronte, the devout daughter of a clergyman, was advocating anti-Christian values, rather than acknowledging that people and their institutions aren’t perfect, but thankfully God and His Word are. I knew I wanted to go with a mainstream publisher, and made the Christian material in my book as clear as possible to show modern readers what medieval audiences instinctively knew because of the culture they lived in - that my characters were Christians who weren’t perfect and who had a problem with some aspects of the church at the time, and not with Christianity itself - but you can’t control how everyone will interpret your work, especially on into the future when cultural ideas change.

Readers and publishers have a lot of different ideas about Christian fiction or fiction where at least some of the characters are Christian, what they expect to see, and what they think is appropriate – it’s pretty individualized. I think as long as you’re making a genuine effort to put what you’re writing as in-line with Scripture and Christian values as possible, that’s about the best you can do. Then it’s a matter of finding a publisher who’s on the same wavelength, and making sure that you’re revising your writing for their audience to hopefully understand where your characters are coming from.