Does it matter WHERE a venom enters the body?

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efreysson

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I'm writing a story where vampires have paralysing venom in their saliva, that subdues prey a few seconds into a bite. I usually have them going for the neck, as is tradition. But does the location matter when it comes to how quickly the venom will kick in and immobilise the victim? Could I just as well have them grab someone's arm and bite down on the wrist?
 

InkFinger

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Venom has to travel the blood stream to have effect. I presume that like a topical anesthetic your victims wrist would go limp immediately, but the venom relies on the heart to pass through the body. You may also want to consider other effects of the bite, they can be nasty without venom.
 

MaeZe

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Depends on the kind of venom.

Natural History Museum: Poison or Toxin?
Venom and poison can both be deadly, but they're two distinct natural weapons.

The terms 'venom' and 'poison' are often used to mean the same thing: a toxic chemical produced naturally by an animal. However, the key difference between them lies in their delivery.

Dr Ronald Jenner, venom evolution expert at the Museum, explains the similarities and differences between these two fascinating toxic substances.

What's the difference between venomous and poisonous?
A fundamental difference between venom and poison is how the toxins enter the body of the victim.

Ronald's rule for telling the difference is straightforward: 'If you bite it and you die it's poison, but if it bites you and you die, that's venom,' he says.

The hallmark of venom is that it's introduced via a wound. It can be injected through a number of means, including teeth, a sting, spines or claws.

'Poison is different as there is no wound involved. It can be absorbed into the bloodstream through the skin, inhaled or ingested,' he says.
The bolded part cracked me up.

CDC: VENOMOUS SNAKES
Symptoms and First Aid
Lay or sit down with the bite in a neutral position of comfort.
Remove rings and watches in anticipation of swelling.
Wash the bite with soap and water.
Cover the bite with a clean, dry dressing.
Mark the leading edge of tenderness/swelling on the skin and write the time alongside it.

An extremity is slower to act. Head and neck, very fast. Imagine your neck swelling vs your leg swelling. At some point though, the venom does spread through your body via your bloodstream. That's why you want the person to be calm and not move around too much.

[Tourniquets and sucking out venom from the wound are not recommended. Everyone should get rid of their old snake-bite kits. ;) ]
 

MaeZe

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I know there's a big artery in the inner thigh...
Blood in an artery is on its way to the tissues, not on it's way to the heart. Venous blood returns to the heart, passes through the lungs to exchange gasses (O2 & CO2) then back to the heart to be pumped around the body.
 

Kjbartolotta

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Blood in an artery is on its way to the tissues, not on it's way to the heart. Venous blood returns to the heart, passes through the lungs to exchange gasses (O2 & CO2) then back to the heart to be pumped around the body.

Well there goes any chance of me pressuring Elí to take his story in a sultrier direction.
 

ChaseJxyz

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There's two main kinds of poison/venom/toxin: vasoconstrictors and neurotoxins. The latter is probably what you want, as it works on the nervous system. Vasoconstrictors make your blood vessels, well, constrict. It's the same thing epinephrine does (which is why you always want to inject in the thigh and not lower on a limb). The vessels in your digits are smaller and can "die" quicker if blood supply is cut off, which is where snakes or spiders are probably going to bite you. Your nervous system starts at the brain, goes down the spinal chord and then branches out to go wherever it needs to go. A bite to the neck would be closer to the brain/spine. When a nerve is damaged or blocked everything "downstream" is affected, which is why a broken neck can cause paralysis from the neck down.

Biting someone on the wrist probably won't do too much, it would just interfere with the hand/wrist. But also your story is about vampires so I'm sure you can fudge some details.
 

Helix

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What you want is something like tetrodotoxin (TTX), which is a toxin produced by a bacterium. It's sequestered in various tissues in a range of organisms. Pufferfish (fugu) store it in their livers, as do some marine gastropods, but blue-ringed octopus keep it tucked away in their salivary glands, along with hapalotoxin. It acts rapidly and causes paralysis of skeletal muscle.

ETA: If you have a look at case studies of blue-ringed octopus bites, you'll see that location of bite doesn't really matter. The effects on the 'victim' are really interesting and worth looking into. (I put victim in inverted commas, because the real victim is the harassed occy.)
 
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MaeZe

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Great posts in this thread.

Just wanted to add that when you are bitten the toxin spreads through the tissues it was deposited in. Highly toxic venom can kill very fast because only a tiny amount needs to make it to the bloodstream. Less toxic but still lethal venom spreads out through the tissues causing severe local damage as small amounts are leaked into the blood vessels.The toxin acts more slowly in these cases but does eventually build up in the bloodstream.

In fiction a vampire usually bites directly into a blood vessel. This is different of course, from how other kinds of toxins enter a person's body.

You get to write it however it works for the story.
 
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TulipMama

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You should also be aware of where the fangs deposit their venom and the mechanical make-up of the fangs. Are they like hypodermic needles with one exit at the end, or are they fluted with several exit points along the fang? If your vampires have a the paralytic in their saliva as you mentioned, the fangs are just going to be coated and carry that coating into the victim plus whatever they can drool into the wound. That could limit how deep you're venom of the day goes, making them have to aim for veins out of necessity. If you bit into the meaty portion of an arm you're getting a paralytic into the muscle tissue, but the bloodstream isn't going to transfer the venom very effectively especially considering the relatively low dose you can administer (limited by whatever the teeth carry in with them, you can't pump more in). If you upped the potency so that a 'meat bite' would paralyze the person then you run the real risk of murdering the poor blood-bag by paralyzing their heart and lungs. At that point it'd be more effective to just spit in their victims eye or carry a well drooled in squirt gun to get the goo into the bloodstream near the brain (paralytic mace?).

I don't know how much you want to limit the morphological changes needed to go from human to vampire (developing murder spit vs whole new dental mechanisms and organs), but traditional snake like fangs are efficient at delivery and dose control. Your vampire can more easily tailor the dose of venom to bite location and body mass, giving a few extra pumps for the 150 kg ex Seal they just bit on the gun show while reeling it in for the 60 kg Otaku they just nibbled via surreptitious hickey.
 

Tazlima

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Something to ponder if you haven't already, how painful is the venom? Pain levels will also vary depending on location.

Years ago, I got finned by a small, mildly-venomous fish. Now I'd had a couple other pokes that day from the same species, and yeah, you noticed they were there, but they barely hurt at all. This one, though, got me right up under my thumbnail and it buuurrrned. The pain didn't ease up for nearly an hour.

Or is vampire venom an anesthetic like mosquitos have? If so... do vampire bites itch afterwards?
 
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efreysson

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Thanks for the replies, everyone. I guess I'm continuing to go with the neck, on the grounds that it is indeed the most practical location.

Well there goes any chance of me pressuring Elí to take his story in a sultrier direction.

At least we learned something new today.
 
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