Are artists obliged to meet audience's deadlines

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Aegrin

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(strong language quoted in the article)
https://bookriot.com/authors-dont-owe-you-books/

It really sickens me to see people who harass and offend authors like Rothfuss or Martin and act like spoiled brats. I understand that waiting years (or even almost a decade) for next installment of favourite book or any piece of art can be difficult. I know that authors make a promise to their audience. But creating an art is hard and demanding. Creating great art can be monstrously demanding. In my opinion if a writer needs 20 years to complete next book, audience should honor that and endure (not mentioning that mocking an artist is unacceptable in any case). What do you think?
 

ironmikezero

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IMHO . . . If one has made a promise, one's word should be kept. (Enforceable contracts are another kettle of fish.)

Simple solution - make no promises (iron-bound contracts, etc.), one cannot keep.

A writer/author cannot control how the reading public will react to a work; so, trying to please everyone is an exercise in futility.

Please yourself first, otherwise why bother? If it's only a job (think work-for-hire, subject matter & style as dictated by the boss) the passion fades, the art of the craft pales, and the work ultimately suffers, failing in its primary goal--to please its author.

So, promise nothing; ignore all but your muse. Satisfy yourself first. Good art is always personal.

Remember, this is just one person's opinion.
 

frimble3

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And this person's opinion is that if you feel that your Great Work of Art is going to be a long time a-coming, play fair. Don't do it as a multi-volume epic - do it as a series of stand-alone books (even if it turns into, say, 2 or three short stories per volume) but don't keep people hanging for years and expect them to be waiting eagerly at the end.
At the beginning, Martin's output was reasonable. Now, it's been years.
Maybe, as some have suggested, it's because he's overwhelmed by the complexities of his storylines, or, maybe he's milked it for all he can.
He was a best-seller, he got a TV show (which had to write it's own ending - probably another problem - how to make their ending fit his vision), what's his rush now.
Or, and I suspect more likely, he's just got bored of the whole thing. It's not like he's been sitting alone in his room, sweating the plot all this time - he's done other stuff.

It's no biggie to me, I read the books, liked them well enough, but only cared about a couple of characters. Didn't watch the TV show, but in my head I am satisfied with my continuations of their stories, so ...
Do what you want, GRR Martin.
But I wouldn't come out beaming with a Brand New Giant Saga and expect anyone to bite.
 

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It goes without saying, I'm sure, that neither Martin nor Rothfuss deserve abuse over this.

And no, I don't think a writer is obligated to any deadline they haven't signed a contract for - and even there, contracts have non-delivery clauses. If a writer doesn't deliver a book, the contract has remedies built in.

Yes, a lot of readers will "punish" an author by not buying other work they may be doing. But I think those of us who are tuned in to these things overestimate what average readers pay attention to. Martin, for example, has a wide base of readers who will buy anything with his name on it, whether or not it's GoT. They might think "Wish this were a GoT book," but they'll buy anyway, which is the publisher's main concern.

And of course with less successful authors, series sometimes get discontinued. Readers are welcome to be angry about that, because the author probably is, too. Publishing is this strange middleman between artists and art consumers, but it has the most control over what actually ends up out in the world.
 

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It goes without saying, I'm sure, that neither Martin nor Rothfuss deserve abuse over this.

And no, I don't think a writer is obligated to any deadline they haven't signed a contract for - and even there, contracts have non-delivery clauses. If a writer doesn't deliver a book, the contract has remedies built in.

Yes, a lot of readers will "punish" an author by not buying other work they may be doing. But I think those of us who are tuned in to these things overestimate what average readers pay attention to. Martin, for example, has a wide base of readers who will buy anything with his name on it, whether or not it's GoT. They might think "Wish this were a GoT book," but they'll buy anyway, which is the publisher's main concern.

And of course with less successful authors, series sometimes get discontinued. Readers are welcome to be angry about that, because the author probably is, too. Publishing is this strange middleman between artists and art consumers, but it has the most control over what actually ends up out in the world.

All of which is true but we've taken the time to learn this from either a need or a desire to know. The ignorance displayed in the quoted comments can to a certain extent be forgiven. The levels of entitlement and insolence necessary to thinking of another human being as a machine whose creative product must be spat out at their personal whim are appalling.
 

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While it is true that you can't force an author to produce anything on a timetable that they do not personally commit to, the simple fact is, an author is running a business and their clients are their readers and if they manage to piss those readers off sufficiently, they won't have readers, or a paycheck, anymore. Now yes, it is a fact that there are a ton of immature children running around out there making demands and those people need a swift kick where the sun don't shine, but for authors who go years and years, or decades between books, they probably deserve some kind of criticism. Every business needs to be accountable to their customers. There are plenty of people out there who simply don't care.
 

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Blizzard Games would only announce a game when they knew for sure they could get it out at a certain date, which was usually not more than a year away. They kept things under wraps and would only tease a well-made, polished product. "Blizzard time" could be annoying when you're waiting for a sequel of a much-loved game but you knew the finished product would be good. They've famously made several games that were really far into development and then just throw them out because it had major issues in design or just wasn't fun. They had plenty of other games to keep the lights on so they could afford to wait until they knew for sure when something was coming out.

So the thing that gets me about GRRM is that he's had a lot of deadlines. Before the show went past his books, before the show ended and before the con in New Zeland this week, to name a few. I can't imagine how difficult it is to write a book as large and as complicated as the asoiaf books, but he's also not publish or perish. He doesn't need to keep churning out new stuff to keep himself fed. I know he has a lot of projects going on and those take his time, and that's fine, but to keep making deadlines, ones he announces publicly, and then to keep missing them by a lot...just don't share those deadlines anymore. Just don't tell us. Vaporware sucks! Having your hopes constantly dashed sucks! And I'm sure the guys in accounting aren't happy that they can't project that huge bump in revenue whenever it does come out (or the massive cost to get a book that big out in multiple languages and formats).
 

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I feel a bit bad for Martin, tbh. The TV show nosedived so spectacularly in its last season that it must have been disheartening and creativity-killing. The TV showrunners took his notes and made the worst possible version of his intended ending. How would you find the energy to try to fix it?

Fans deserve nothing. Fans have been the worst, since at least Arthur Conan Doyle, and probably going back to Byron-stans. To certain point I emphasise with Cephus's point, that businesses (the author) should look after the customer, but that doesn't extend to the expectation of endless sequels, imo. No book should be bought with the expectation of a sequel.
 

DeleyanLee

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It was 14 years before Incredibles 2. (And it was totally worth the wait.)

It was 9 years between the first two How to Train Your Dragon movies.

How many years have people waited for the next Avatar?

Thomas Harris took 7 years between Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs, and then another 11 years before Hannibal.

Things, especially artistic things, don't happen on a schedule. They never have. They happen when they happen. And any expectations or demands from anyone else is just them being spoiled brats, IMO, and should be ignored by everyone for what they are.

If you truly want THAT artist's work, then you have to let that artist go through their process to produce that work. Demanding they short-cut that successful process means that you're NOT going to get what you want, even if you get it fast. You still won't be satisfied.

Now, if the writer/artist/whoever can just churn them out in a week (two if the fish are biting), then it's not about the art. It's a formula they can just repeat ad nauseum and if people like that, cool beans--but those people aren't doing the artistic/creative end of things. That's why you can't really put a deadline on such endeavors and expect it to stick. The creative mind just doesn't work that way.

So, no, no artist owes speed (or anything else) to their fans' demands.
 

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for authors who go years and years, or decades between books, they probably deserve some kind of criticism.

No. They don't. Ever.

Books are works of art, not scheduled assemblyline bullshit. Every author works differently. Sometimes every book works differently.

Unless you have paid me money for a thing, I owe you nothing.

Every business needs to be accountable to their customers. There are plenty of people out there who simply don't care.

An author isn't a business. A publisher is a business. An author is an author, and they're entitled to write or not write. Buy or don't buy, but lay off the schedule.

I'm not keen on cutting Martin slack for anything today. But as Albedo says, I wouldn't blame him a bit if he's abandoned GoT. HBO destroyed it, pretty much overnight.
 

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Some classics (To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye) were (more or less) one offs by the authors and thank God those authors were not held to some silly idea of throughput.
 

Roxxsmom

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Authors are human beings, and human beings have all kinds of reasons for failing to meet deadlines from writer's block to catastrophic illness. As others have said, they aren't machines. And gods help anyone who hopes to make a living off their own creativity when and if we do get to where a publishing company hires programmers who create algorithms that generate mechanically plotted series written in a smooth, agreeable style on a predictable schedule.

GRRM is an extreme case, and I have pretty much assumed the end of ASoIaF is not ever going to come, aside from what was written for the TV show. It's easy for me to say this, perhaps, because I lost interest in the series after book 3 or so anyway, and I only watched part of the TV series (not having HBO, I had to catch episodes when they had "free" weekends). It's a bummer for those who are more avid fans, but I can see why it would be almost impossible for him at this point. Maybe he'd have finished it by now if he hadn't signed a contract for a TV show before the series was complete, but I don't blame him for that choice either. I doubt I'd be able to resist if someone waved that kind of money in my face for an unfinished series that was popular before but hardly a household word for those who don't generally read fantasy.

I certainly know what it's like to be soured on something I once was enthusiastic about to the point that trying to continue with it almost makes me physically ill. I don't know GRRM, so there's no way I can speak for him, but I imagine if I were in his shoes I wouldn't really feel like ASoIaF was even mine anymore.

Having said this, I get why fans feel frustrated with waiting for something they felt was promised and wasn't delivered. We live in a world where we've gotten used to instant gratification. We get pissed off if we go to the grocery store and they are out of our favorite cookies, and hell hath no fury like mine if something takes longer than two days to arrive from Amazon. Writing takes time (I can think of a few authors who say they can bang out a new novel in a weekend, but I think they are unusual, especially in a genre that now expects doorstop-sized mega epics with involved world building). Still, some authors (and their publishers) have somewhat adapted. So a sequel often comes out a few months (sometimes sooner) after the previous book in a series, especially with newer or less famous authors. Some now publish shorter works at more frequent intervals. There's a marketing model at work here, because if a reader is waiting for a new installment that doesn't come soon, they get bored and distracted and "forget" what they were so impatient for. They may not remember how eager they once were for the sequel by the time it comes out because they've moved on to other things.

But this approach doesn't work for all stories and authors. Real life is messy and unpredictable. We can't really count on everything happening according to plan, and people needed to remember that even before we had a global pandemic.
 

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Some classics (To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye) were (more or less) one offs by the authors and thank God those authors were not held to some silly idea of throughput.
But those books, like most novels, were never designed to be series. They were complete in themselves. No sequels were promised or threatened.
If GRRM had only said "That's it, there is no more, I've given you all the pieces, draw your own conclusions" it would, I think, have been griped at, but more palatable than just dragging out the 'official ending' with promises, promises. Might have been kind of cool, really.
 

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No. They don't. Ever.

Books are works of art, not scheduled assemblyline bullshit. Every author works differently. Sometimes every book works differently.

Unless you have paid me money for a thing, I owe you nothing.

And I owe you nothing either. I don't have to buy your book and neither does anyone else.

An author isn't a business. A publisher is a business. An author is an author, and they're entitled to write or not write. Buy or don't buy, but lay off the schedule.

I'm not keen on cutting Martin slack for anything today. But as Albedo says, I wouldn't blame him a bit if he's abandoned GoT. HBO destroyed it, pretty much overnight.

I don't care what he does. I don't read GoT regardless. I didn't watch the show. I don't care. However, using him as an example, if his readers decide to stop buying his books because he can't produce, then he's not much of an author anymore is he? Especially if he has bills to pay.
 

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And I owe you nothing either. I don't have to buy your book and neither does anyone else.

Now you're getting it.

I don't care what he does. I don't read GoT regardless. I didn't watch the show. I don't care. However, using him as an example, if his readers decide to stop buying his books because he can't produce, then he's not much of an author anymore is he? Especially if he has bills to pay.

You may want to use a different author to illustrate whatever point it is you're trying to make.
 

Albedo

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I'm pretty sure GRRM (net worth $120 million) doesn't have to worry too much about bills these days. There'd be plenty of authors making a living from their writing who do worry about bills, and no doubt that's an incentive to speed up production, but again, none of them owe their readers jack, unless those readers are personally covering the utilities for them. (Patreon's actually an interesting spanner in the works to this, I must admit. To the point it worries me a bit. Are creators who charge specific amounts for the future expectation of content obliged to produce? You could make that argument, but in Patreon's case, it's an explicit arrangement. Very different to traditional publishing.)
 

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There'd be plenty of authors making a living from their writing who do worry about bills, and no doubt that's an incentive to speed up production, but again, none of them owe their readers jack, unless those readers are personally covering the utilities for them.

Writing is such an uneven business, even if you produce consistently. The advice I've heard (and given) is: don't give up your day job. I've had multiple writers tell me it takes 10 years of writing and consistent sales before you get anything like a predictable living wage. It goes without saying most writers don't get 10 years of consistent sales.

Self-publishing is a different animal. In some genres, making a living wage is possible. But self-publishers are both writer and publisher. And they still don't owe anybody anything they don't choose to give.

(Patreon's actually an interesting spanner in the works to this, I must admit. To the point it worries me a bit. Are creators who charge specific amounts for the future expectation of content obliged to produce? You could make that argument, but in Patreon's case, it's an explicit arrangement. Very different to traditional publishing.)

I've subscribed to some Patreons where I pay by the piece, rather than by the month. IOW, if the author writes a story, I get billed; otherwise, nothing. OTOH, I've subscribed to some where I pay monthly, regardless of what's being produced, and in some cases those artists have had multi-month gaps. But I can cancel at any time (one artist, aware there'd be a major gap, send their subscribers an email suggesting they unsub for a while), which I suspect covers any liability issues.

The pressure an individual artist might feel is different, of course. I've avoided Patreon because even if I set it up as pay-by-piece, I'd feel bad not producing. Guilt is not a useful creative incentive for me; others may react differently.
 

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I don't care what he does. I don't read GoT regardless. I didn't watch the show. I don't care. However, using him as an example, if his readers decide to stop buying his books because he can't produce, then he's not much of an author anymore is he? Especially if he has bills to pay.

Iā€™m not really sure what larger point youā€™re trying to make in this thread? Iā€™m pretty sure the published authors here already understand how capricious the business of selling books is. What you seem to want to impress upon us is that authors should be fearful and write as fast as they possibly can, Or Else, Because They Are Powerless?

I suspect most published authors canā€™t earn enough these days from writing to pay their bills, let alone earn a decent living at it. If writing is a side gig for someone, then I suspect theyā€™re not taking your ā€œfrantic assembly-line workerā€ approach to their craft, but producing as time permits and pride in their work allows?
 

Ari Meermans

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Alrighty, then. I caution everyone to be very careful in your responses. Remember our one guiding principle: Respect Your Fellow Writer (RYFW).

Fair Warning: I have a low threshold of tolerance for attacks on writers in general . . . but especially wrt attacksā€”such as I've seen on social media latelyā€”on those who are not participants in the conversation and aren't around to defend themselves.

Carry on but proceed carefully.
 

Roxxsmom

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I'm not sure of the point either. As I understand it most published authors have day jobs too, because they don't make nearly enough from their books. Unless one is fortunate to write a runaway bestseller, the only way to live on novel writing is to be very productive over a long period of time and to sell at least moderate amounts. Yeah, most writers must churn out books to make a living at it. A small percentage manage to do this. Most don't.

That's not about a moral obligation, though. It's a given their fans won't buy books from them if the books don't appear.

Writers like Martin, and possibly Rothfuss, are in the tail end of the distribution:writers who wrote a single work--or body of works--that became so successful they probably don't have to write another thing as long as they live. Rothfuss is also unusual in that his debut novel, which he had a hard time even finding representation for, was a bestseller. Again, there's nothing moral there. I don't know either of these men, but I suspect they aren't thumbing their noses at their fans as they sit on their piles of money. Creativity doesn't always perform to order, and maybe wild success with an earlier work can make it hard to follow up.

Would fans be happier if the expected sequel came out in a timely manner and it was a complete dud? That happens sometimes too.
 

lizmonster

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I truly think most readers aren't this tuned in to your average writer's schedule.

A mystery writer I've long enjoyed recently published a book after a seven year hiatus. When I saw the news, my reaction wasn't "Hmph. Who does she think she is, making me wait this long?" My reaction was "Oh, goody! New book!!!" (And it was, indeed, lovely.)
 

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At the end of the day, the author can take as long as they need (or even want) to write more in a series, unless they are in a contract that requires a deadline.

And authors do not deserve to be attacked for not writing at a pace that audiences want.

However, authors do risk losing audience by taking too long to write the next book, whether it's fans who just got angry about it or readers who liked the earlier work but lost interest over time in picking up the next one (which, btw, happens to me all the time). Whether an author cares about that or not and lets it affect their writing speed is a different matter.

So are they obligated to meet audience deadlines? Absolutely not. Are there consequences if they don't meet expectations? Depends on the audience member.
 

Cephus

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Iā€™m not really sure what larger point youā€™re trying to make in this thread? Iā€™m pretty sure the published authors here already understand how capricious the business of selling books is. What you seem to want to impress upon us is that authors should be fearful and write as fast as they possibly can, Or Else, Because They Are Powerless?

I suspect most published authors canā€™t earn enough these days from writing to pay their bills, let alone earn a decent living at it. If writing is a side gig for someone, then I suspect theyā€™re not taking your ā€œfrantic assembly-line workerā€ approach to their craft, but producing as time permits and pride in their work allows?

The point being, as a writer, you can't just flip your readers the bird and say "screw you, I'm doing what I want to do". Not if you've got bills to pay and have to depend on the largess of your customers to buy your books. GRRM certainly doesn't have to care today, but when he was starting out, he absolutely did. I don't think anyone on AW has the millions of GRRM.
 

Ari Meermans

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Nope. The point is I said to stop singling out writers by nameā€”especially those not participating in the conversation and therefore are not able to defend themselves. I'm not kidding about being a strict adherent to the RYFW principle.
 
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