Science Fiction is Rivets, Fantasy is Trees

Jason

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I just finished Enders Game by Orson Scott Card (and as an aside, totally hooked on audio books now!), and there was a really good postscript by the author at the end. Lots of interesting nuggets about the origins of the novel itself:

1. He first submitted it as a short story to Analog (publication from Conde Nast), and it was rejected for being too long at 75 pages. He trimmed it to 60, resubmitted and it was published on page 100.

2. Ender's Game, originally published as a novel in 1985, so just recently celebrated its 35 year anniversary.

3. In his audio post script (and he's got a great baritone narrator kind of voice too), Orson said that he got started as a screen writer, and only started into writing science fiction to help pay the bills!

4. Finally, on his initial submission (even before it went to Analog I think), the publisher rejected it, saying that it didn't fall under science fiction, it was fantasy!

Which brings me to a quote he made that I found rather interesting. His statement basically said that if you look at the cover of a book, if there's rivets on it, then it's science fiction. But if there's trees on the cover, then it falls under fantasy. I found that to be a clever turn of the phrase, and cannot think of an example that doesn't adhere to that principle. Doesn't mean there aren't any, just not in my own limited readings.

So, with an inkling toward hearing others thoughts on this generalization - do you agree with the declaration of Orson here? Disagree? Thoughts on making distinctions between the two genres? I often see science fiction and fantasy genres both combined and split apart. Would be interested in hearing more about this.
 

Aegrin

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That is quite neat comparison. For me sic-fi is different in themes, goals and design assumptions than fantasy. One can have unexplained supernatural elements in sci-fi and one can have scientifically exlained hard magic system in fantasy. Technology is also irrelevent in my opinion.
 

Albedo

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Card's wrong. It's SPACESHIPS on the cover of SF, vs. DRAGONS on the cover of fantasy. That's the difference. But yeah, I think the general point is right. There's more to combine the two genres than there is to separate them. And the distance between two works of either can be much wider than between similar works from differing genres. If I was cleverer, I'd argue for SF being a subset of fantasy, and fantasy itself being a subset of romance. But I'm not clever, so I'm just posting memes.
 

Woollybear

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Neither trees nor rivets on my self-published science fantasy...

So yes, in principle I agree, heh.
 

ironmikezero

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Science fantasy! Yes! The eco-overlords patrol the Multiverse in their interdimensional living-ships to ferret out the insidious chlorophyll smugglers and their corrupted AI-controlled android crews--those slippery pirates, the galactic scourge clandestinely supported by a secret pantheon of banished old gods who plot their return to power.

(The cover may be at issue . . .)
 
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Stytch

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Aliens are just elves in space. Or goblins, or whatever. For instance, some Trekkie geeks may (if we're plainly just dealing in silly stereotypes here) firmly believe Star Trek is science fiction, pointing to the intricate (and weirdly messed up) engineering and SCIENCE happening everywhere... Meanwhile, the friendly neighborhood pointy-eared alien who's the second in command can touch your face and read your mind. Scientifically.

....Sure, that's not fantasy, totally something separate and distinct. All good here.
 

MaeZe

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Lots and lots of trees in my sci-fi novel and I'm not sure if there are any rivets in the transport ships. Maybe, but the characters don't mention any. ;)
 

zanzjan

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If taken as a somewhat absurd reductionist statement on cover art, it was probably generally true, especially in the mid-80s. In terms of describing content, I'd say it's probably impossible to come up with any single binary that encompasses everything that is or might be SFF, much as one would have great difficulty meaningfully dividing every single hue of color--or vast multicolored tapestries--into only either black or white.

As a thought exercise, kinda fun to try to come up with new binaries though.
 
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Friendly Frog

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I like the idea of rivets versus trees. It is close to the usually broad distinction of tech for SF and nature for fantasy that I tend to use myself to differentiate between the two.

But I balk at using covers to mark the difference. It would require the publisher and the cover artist to have a very good idea of what the story is and that is not always the case. Some stories also defy being slot into one category only.

Just a gander at my dad's collection of 80's sci-fi and fantasy books will show some covers that absolutely have nothing to do with the content. Some of this is probably due to editions in translation, of publishers here buying rights to foreign books because they're popular but not really knowing what they were about in the first place.

And then there is the thing about some publishers thinking women writers need covers that only appeal to female readers because no men would be caught dead reading a women writer. So not a rivet in sight when they should be. Not saying this thing is common, but it does happen and it all makes covers IMO unreliable to indicate the contents of a book always correctly.

Day of the Triffids? Pure sci-fi and not a rivet in sight.

Just walking trees.
A bit too easy, IMO. Surely a rivet must have occurred either in the lab in which the triffids were raised, or in the space weapon that caused mass blindness early in the story?
 

Chris P

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Considering the covers come well after the story is written, edited, etc., I think it's an oversimplification, but I see his point.

The nugget of truth behind his oversimplification is that different things drive the two types of stories. To my own oversimplification, fantasy is driven by magic, be it magical creatures, magic users, or some type of mysticism. Here it can cross over into paranormal, although the difference to me is paranormal takes place in real-world settings. I think Twilight would be fantasy if it took place in a non-Earth world.

Sci-fi is driven by the technology. Even if, as said above, aliens are just space elves, the world does not rely on magic or mysticism so much as altered laws of physics or an ability to use physics in different ways (time travel, etc.).

Yeah, yeah, exceptions, exceptions, and "Whaddabout..." But isn't the point of genre and marketing to make oversimplifications so the customer has at least a chance of identifying what they are interested in?
 
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Afalstein

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Tolkien has an observation in one of his writings that space travel stories often have the same logic as "a wizard did it." What powers the hyperdrive? Magic. Which, Tolkien's character says, if it's the same as a wizard waving a wand and teleporting him to another planet, he'd rather have the wizard than the spaceship.

It sums up a lot about the distinction. There's also the sense that science fiction is often curious about the future, while fantasy is nostalgic, on some level, about the past.
 

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Arthur C. Clarke's third law: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
For once I would like to read science fiction that is both engaging and totally believable. Most science fiction is almost as lacking in credibility as high fantasy.
 
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CMBright

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Not all sci-fi is rivets, I have a group of GMO mice who are unintended consequences of a project on human learning. Deliberate mutation followed by artificial selection for intelligence led to self awareness. Basic evolutionary theory, save for the fiction of machines to allow manipulation of genomes that precise. A small amount of hand waving, but rodents tend to be wicked smart when it comes to getting what they want, see any YouTube video about squirrels and birdfeeders.

Star Trek aliens tend to be humanoid with a few visible differences. KPax (forget the name of the book/movie, remember the planet) said aliens tend to look human for the same reason all soap bubbles look more or less alike. Star Wars tends to have actual alien aliens, if that makes sense.

I like the Arthur C. Clark quote, but take it farther, that even magic has science at the core. Otherwise it is just random phenomena that can't be repeated.
 

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Arthur C. Clarke's third law: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
For once I would like to read science fiction that is both engaging and totally believable. Most science fiction is almost as lacking in credibility as high fantasy.
Gosh, that's a pretty sweeping and damning statement. Are there not any SF or F books you've read and enjoyed?

Though, of course, there are heaps of readers who just plain hate those genres and can't suspend disbelief over the speculative element, which is perfectly fair.
 

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I feel like urban fantasy is severely underrepresented in this thread…
That's because a unicorn stabbed urban fantasy with its horn and killed it. Killed it DEAD.
 

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I have a confession...I'm a bit unclear on what urban fantasy actually is!
Set in a city, and usually where the majority of humans are oblivious to the fantastical element (vampires, werewolves, etc).
 

Jazz Club

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Set in a city, and usually where the majority of humans are oblivious to the fantastical element (vampires, werewolves, etc).
Oh I see. Thanks for the answer! So the fantastical element have to creep around and keep their existence secret, etc?
 

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Oh I see. Thanks for the answer! So the fantastical element have to creep around and keep their existence secret, etc?
In general, yes, but this can be interpreted pretty broadly as I understand it. I think Stacia Kane's truly excellent Downside series is marketed as UF, but while it's definitely city based it's alt-contemporary and the magic/fantasy/ghost aspect though only accessible to a select subgroup is widely accepted by the population.
 
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Arthur C. Clarke's third law: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
For once I would like to read science fiction that is both engaging and totally believable. Most science fiction is almost as lacking in credibility as high fantasy.
I think you need to read a lot more.