The order of things: Agents, editors, betas ... oh my!

UntoldStoryteller

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Hello,

I'm should start by self-reporting: I'm a total newbie. Despite a lifelong love of writing, I'm only just dipping my toe into the waters of the publishing world (and these forums). As they say, it takes a village. And what I'm learning is that publishing is no exception. I understand the general roles of an agent, editor, beta, publisher, etc. ... but I don't understand more practically when to engage each of them.

Do you wait to have a novel completed before looking for an agent? Or just a few chapters and a pitch?

Would you seek a beta at chapter one and go through the journey with you or once an editor has given things a once over and you're looking for eyes that closely resemble your potential audience?

Are you pitching in hopes of getting an agent, an editor, a publisher, or all the above?

These are probably silly questions, but ... we all start somewhere. It feels like there isn't a formulaic answer and that the process can vary, but I'd like to better understand how things generally are "supposed to" go.

Thanks in advance for any guidance!
W
 

Woollybear

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Hi W, (note: I am not an agent.)

For nonfiction, the rules are different.

For fiction, which it sounds like you write, the common advice is to (step 1) write, revise, and polish on your own to the best state you can make a complete manuscript. (step 1b) An option at this point is to find a writers' group. Check on meetup.com in your area. These vary in quality, but they are a way to 'crowdsource information' with others who are going through what you are--and a good bet to find expertise. Writers' groups are run in various ways--you can have rough drafts critiqued, or even brainstorm ideas for something you've not written. You can take polished work. Basically, you're finding 'like minds' in your local neighborhood who benefit from you as much as you benefit from them.

After you have a solid draft, possibly your best draft--but you will know for yourself what is best, here, and it can change from one project to the next--you (step 2) hand a few chapters to a beta (if it's a stranger) or the complete manuscript (if it's someone reliable and trustworthy, often the people in the writers' groups are a good place and now you've built the relationships.) There are Facebook groups and so on to find beta readers. But many flake out. Swapping a few chapters first, and being responsible on your end with beta'ing their writing, will help you see if they hold up their end on your writing.

Also, the issues in your early chapters may be present throughout your story (too much telling, too much repetition, etc) and a complete beta won't be needed. If you have been in a good writers' group, there's a better chance your manuscript won't suffer in this particular way.

You may or may not agree with the beta reader. You might work with many. Some may give fewer than five comments and others may give hundreds. Super-variable from one reader to the next, and no guarantee of improvement although it's likely, but you will come to understand your work from a new perspective, which is highly valuable. I used family, at first, and then friends and then strangers--that was for my first wobbly attempt at a novel. Now I will go straight to the most helpful beta readers, which includes one family member who used to be involved with Clarion.

After working with the beta feedback, or at any point really, there are lots of ways to approach your writing to improve it. An optional step is (step ?) to consult 'craft books' and also (step ?) to analyze your own favorite books for methods that you likely have not mastered as yet. Incorporate what you learn. But now you (step 3) start querying to agents. (Unless you wish to self publish out of the gate, and that's a different model.)

(Step 4) You are free to concurrently query some publishers directly. The plus side is that if a publisher is interested, you can pursue it or add the information into your query letter to agents. (I neglected to take advantage of that option, and I wonder what would have happened if I had.) Some recommend not doing this. Some say it's fine.

You can hire an editor if you like--this is not required--I did this about halfway through my agent queries, to (a) ensure i wasn't missing anything in the writing which might explain the low interest from agents and (b) prepare my manuscript for self publishing, which looked more and more likely. If you hire an editor, later is better because good ones are pricey. Don't blow cash on a bad draft. There are multiple types of editors. This part turns into its own discussion.

But if an agent wants to represent you, (and if you decide if it is a good fit, then) I believe you stop everything else and follow their guidance. They may ask for revisions or not. They may recommend an editorial pass or not. Eventually they will submit to acquisition editors at publishing houses.

It's a long process, but it starts and continues with lots of writing.

Good luck.
 
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Maggie Maxwell

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Hardly silly! These are all things we learn as we go. No harm in asking for the answers directly instead of picking them up piecemeal.

Do you wait to have a novel completed before looking for an agent? Or just a few chapters and a pitch?

- Yes, you MUST have a finished novel. Pitches are for nonfiction. You may hear some stories of people who got agents with unfinished novels, but if true, you'd need the most amazing chapters and pitch to beat out all the stories that are already done for the agent's attention.

Would you seek a beta at chapter one and go through the journey with you or once an editor has given things a once over and you're looking for eyes that closely resemble your potential audience?

- When you get a beta is entirely between you and the betas. There's no hard and fast rule for getting more eyes on the story. If you feel like you need someone to walk with you chapter by chapter during development and that having someone waiting for the next one will encourage you to finish, then get a beta at chapter one. If you want to have it as clean as possible before anyone else is allowed to see it, then wait until you're done and have gone through a first draft. Editors are entirely optional before getting an agent and are actually often not recommended unless in circumstances such as writing in a language that's not your native tongue. There's nothing stopping you from paying someone to edit your work, but when you get a publisher, they're going to give your book to their OWN editor (at no cost to you) and they might undo everything the paid editor did. It's usually recommended to just use beta readers to clean up as best you can yourself unless, like I said, there are extenuating circumstances that would benefit a paid editor before submitting.

Are you pitching in hopes of getting an agent, an editor, a publisher, or all the above?

It all depends on you and what you want. An agent is a person who has connections with publishers and will advocate for the best deal for you in a contract. They don't get paid until you get paid, so it's to their benefit that you get the best deal possible with your book. They can often get your book in front of the bigger publishers who do not allow unagented submissions. However, there are other publishers (and publishers will always come with their own editors, so just focus on publishers), often smaller, who allow you to submit directly to them. Either of these avenues will get your book published, but an agent is more likely to get you a better deal. That is not a guarantee though, always do your research before agreeing to anything, or preferably before submitting to someone.

There are 2 pieces of advice you'll often see related to this topic.
1) Aim high. Try for agents before publishers. You don't know who will be the first person to say yes, so don't start low in the hierarchy. The rejections will sting, and there WILL be rejections, but it's better to try and get a "no" than to go for the bottom tier and get a "yes" without knowing if you could have done better.
2) Do not submit to agents and publishers at the same time. You can only walk the bridge between you and publishers once per book. Agents have connections and better know-how on how to sell a book to a particular person, with a more personal touch. If they're open to unagented submissions and you send your work to them and they say no, your agent cannot go to them later with the same book, even if they're sure that they would buy it with a different angle. Don't burn your bridges too early.
 

Cephus

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For fiction, you must have your book finished and in submittable form before you query an agent. If they want the whole manuscript, you'd better be able to provide it. If you're not done and it's not perfect, then don't bother.

Beta readers do not read content until your entire manuscript is finished and polished. They should never see anything unless it's a finished product. They are your last line of evaluation. If you're not at that point, you need to seek out alpha readers, who are typically industry professionals or established writers who can see where you are going wrong developmentally. There are also developmental editors, but that's extremely expensive.
 

lizmonster

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At its simplest (and most common), the trade publishing path (for fiction) looks something like this:

1) Finish MS.
2) Query agents.
3) Sub to publishers.
4) Deal with the soul-crushing realities of the publishing business Get published.

There are details in there, of course, but they're all optional. Having other eyes on your manuscript is a good idea, but an agent isn't going to ask how many people are in your crit group.

There are other paths to publication as well, and it's common to combine them - there are several authors here on AW who are both trade and self published. But it all starts with a finished, polished manuscript. If you need help getting there, you've got a lot of options, but you've got to get to THE END first.
 

Mutive

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Beta readers do not read content until your entire manuscript is finished and polished. They should never see anything unless it's a finished product.

Eh, beta readers whatever you and they mutually agree upon them reading. I've had "betas" (at least in the way it's used here and most other forums) look at a half-finished manuscript where I've asked for advice as to how to proceed. It's the kind of thing that will generally require a pre-existing relationship, but it can happen.

You *are* more likely to be able to acquire a new, good beta with a polished, complete manuscript, though. (Good betas can pick and choose and generally prefer to work with material that's enjoyable to read and they feel stands a chance of being published, at least in my experience.)

Also, aside from meetups, there are a number of online critique groups that are awesome for finding betas, including good old AW. :)

(And agreed with lizmonster that betas aren't necessary. I've had stories published that were heavily betaed and others that never saw anyone's eyes but my own prior to submission. Betas can help, but about 99% of them are not professional writers and the helpfulness of their advice is exceedingly variable.)
 

UntoldStoryteller

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Thanks, Woolly!

(step ?) to consult 'craft books' and also (step ?) to analyze your own favorite books for methods that you likely have not mastered as yet. Incorporate what you learn. But now you (step 3) start querying to agents. (Unless you wish to self publish out of the gate, and that's a different model.)

Any fav "craft books" you recommend? I've done a tiny bit of research for something like that, but mostly feel kind of ... eah ... about how many options there are and not sure what might be a good place to start.



(Step 4) You are free to concurrently query some publishers directly. The plus side is that if a publisher is interested, you can pursue it or add the information into your query letter to agents. (I neglected to take advantage of that option, and I wonder what would have happened if I had.) Some recommend not doing this. Some say it's fine.

I didn't realize that was an option. Do you mean that as publishers expressed interest, you would have leveraged that for a better/different agent? And, if so, what would the advantage be of getting an agent after a publisher already picked up interest in your book (guessing to make sure the project actually goes through and/or for future work? #newbiestatusquestions).

Thanks for this great overview ... that makes sense! MUCH appreciated!
 

UntoldStoryteller

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There are 2 pieces of advice you'll often see related to this topic.
1) Aim high. Try for agents before publishers. You don't know who will be the first person to say yes, so don't start low in the hierarchy. The rejections will sting, and there WILL be rejections, but it's better to try and get a "no" than to go for the bottom tier and get a "yes" without knowing if you could have done better.
2) Do not submit to agents and publishers at the same time. You can only walk the bridge between you and publishers once per book. Agents have connections and better know-how on how to sell a book to a particular person, with a more personal touch. If they're open to unagented submissions and you send your work to them and they say no, your agent cannot go to them later with the same book, even if they're sure that they would buy it with a different angle. Don't burn your bridges too early.

It's funny because if if someone told me to "aim high" before reading your post, I might assume aiming directly at publishers vs. agents made more sense. This really helps clarify the "why" behind the "what" of agents ... and makes a lot of sense. This is my greenness talking, but I didn't realize some of the bigger publishing houses may not let you pitch to them WITHOUT an agent. Great insight here and two good pieces of advice I'll definitely be keeping in mind. THANK YOU!!
 

UntoldStoryteller

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Thanks gang. Appreciate the guidance, Mutive, Liz and Cephus. I'm guessing I'll go the beta route because I'm new to the writing game and ... feels less intimidating. Thanks for your help along the journey. :)
 

Woollybear

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Mmm.... Frankly, most advice is to approach agents and not publishers, if you are hoping to get an agent. Small operations (press? publisher? I don't really know this difference) participate alongside agents on Pit Mad (twitter), and so you can get a like from a small operation sometimes. Often new presses, and possibly dodgy; it's all variable. But sometimes that goes somewhere, when you followup on it.

I would never ever sub to a major publisher (say, Tor, which I think you can sub to without an agent) if I wanted an agent. But if a small press with a name like "Carbon Dioxide Is Killing Earth" :) :) (I made that up...) liked my PitMad tweet, I'd look into them because it would look like the right home, to me, and they had invited me to submit.

I've heard that agents find offers-in-hand an attractive part of a query, but also heard the opposite. You'd have to look into it and decide, as is true with lots of this stuff.

~~

Craft books--Try the library when it opens. Under nonfiction. Grab a bunch. I forget the call numbers.

Otherwise, I liked How not to write a novel, Steering the craft, and The emotional craft of fiction. And a few others. There are some really good ones out there.
 

UntoldStoryteller

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But if a small press with a name like "Carbon Dioxide Is Killing Earth" :) :) (I made that up...) liked my PitMad tweet, I'd look into them because it would look like the right home, to me, and they had invited me to submit.

Haha ... my kind of house. I'll keep an eye out for Carbon Dioxide is Killing The Earth for my first pitch. :-D


Craft books--Try the library when it opens. Under nonfiction. Grab a bunch. I forget the call numbers.

Otherwise, I liked How not to write a novel, Steering the craft, and The emotional craft of fiction. And a few others. There are some really good ones out there.

Thanks for those ... feels like some good quarantine reading for the weekend. Much appreciated.
 

waylander

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@UntoldStoryteller Are you in touch with other writers in Austin? AFAIK it has a number of writers groups who could help you.