Am I Actually Query Ready?

mwritesdragons · Jul 12, 2020

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I both am in need of a little bit of hand-holding (or possibly reining in), and I couldn't find an existing active thread on this question.

The question: am I actually query ready?

I know none of you can tell me for sure. At a certain point, I'll have to jump off the cliff and into the trenches. But, I know there is such a thing as being too eager. So, here's what I'm working with with my adult epic fantasy novel:

Draft (not 1st draft) was completed fall 2019 (at a hefty 218K word count)
After two-ish rounds of beta readers (four people total) I made what I think are substantive edits, cutting around 24K words
Kind of out of the blue I had one more person ask to beta read for me, so they read the "lean and mean" 194K draft; they had some critique, but overall were positive and the book worked for them.
I've picked an initial round of 5 agents who've at least, according to QueryTracker, sent partial or full requests for manuscripts with a 190K word count.
I've been playing at writing a query letter and synopsis during this whole process, and I've been reading the threads on here to give me more pointers. (One day I'm sure I'll post in SYW, but I'm perfectly happy to fall flat on my face for this initial round , while I get to know the community here and thicken my skin a bit.)

Especially after the generally positive review from my most recent beta reader, I'm chomping at the bit to send some emails. (After re-writing aforementioned query letter about a dozen times, of course, as is natural.)

Am I committing the sin of querying too early? Should I do one more editing pass? (We all know I'll find things to fix if I do.) Ultimately I am proud of what I've got. And though the draft worth mentioning was completed in 2019, this is one of those projects that has been resurrected several times over too many years. I have an impulse to finally, at last, get it out there.

More generally for myself the the other novices to querying, if any of the veterans have checklists for being query ready, what do they look like?

Thanks all in advance!

P.S. If this should be in a different section please move! I know it's not about the writing per-se but I saw some query question threads in this sub-forum.)

FletcherHavarti · Jul 13, 2020

Congrats on the finished manuscript! I strongly recommend getting the same level of feedback on your query letter as you've been collecting for your novel. Having gone through the agent query process myself before, I can say that the form rejections can come in surprisingly fast if your letter is not quite up to snuff. Rather than burn through your A-list right away, why not spend a bit of time posting your letter for critique once you have the 50 posts?

I should point out that I'm in exactly the same place right now: I have a completed/polished novel ready to send out, I've drafted a query letter, and now I'm working my way up to the requirements to post it here.

200k words is very tricky to sell as a debut novel, so the letter has to be as solid as it can possibly be. My advice, fwiw, is to take a little bit of extra time to get that critique and refine the letter until it shines.

Maryn · Jul 13, 2020

I am far from expert, but if your book stands at 194K now, I don't think it's query ready. Regardless of its quality, that word count alone could cause rejection, including in genres that accept high word count.

What's a typical word count for an author's first book in your genre?

A merciless edit bringing it pretty close to that number is probably necessary. It may be bloody.

Maryn, sorry to have to say this

Chris P · Jul 13, 2020

Wow, it's like I'm looking at a prior version of myself: my labor of love book (my second completed novel-length work) clocked in at 250K, which I cut to about 190K. I was convinced it couldn't budge further and still be the same book.

I won't go in to the full story (much of what I had to do might not help you), but relative you your post I'd like to offer some suggestions:

Try writing the query letter and synopsis. Read the threads here on what works and what doesn't, and polish up both. Then, run these past the beta readers you used for the book. Ask them if they were surprised; Is this how they would describe the book? What do they think of the book now? I have on other projects written a draft query letter very early in the book process to help me focus. Writing the query and synopsis for the 250K doorstopper forced me to focus on those scenes that did not support the points in the query letter.

Be ready for a radical rethink. The wisdom of the ages is that (with minor variances for genre) querying anything over 100K is super hard. Actually, the querying is easy, the success rate is another thing! I needed structural changes to how my novel was told to even get it looked at. It was a travel novel, and my first reaction was "But they NEED to go to all these places!" Well, turns out they didn't. I started their journey at what was the original halfway point, and tweaked scenes so they included stuff from the previous, now cut scenes. It worked. I got some nibbles, but no agent.

In the end, I split it into two separate books; wrote a new beginning to the old ending as an action novel, and wrote a new ending to the original beginning for a character-driven bildungsroman. Neither book has sold, but each are at the 90 to 100K mark and much better.

Lauram6123 · Jul 13, 2020

First of all, congratulations! You've finished a novel and should be very proud!

I am also no expert in publishing and querying, but I do try to follow querying trends.

Agent Kelly Peterson from Rees Literary Agency tweeted just the other day about about auto-rejecting queries based solely on word counts. It's worth taking a look at that thread.

I would also be curious about your beta readers. In my experience, friends and family, even those who are highly educated and readers of the genre in question, can't give the kind of beta feedback that a writer can give. It's even better if you have a beta relationship with someone who doesn't know you all that well and thus won't be fearful of hurting your feelings.

If I were you, I really think hard about that word count and ask myself if there was any possible cutting to be done. Then, I'd find myself a beta (maybe do a swap) with another writer and get a fresh perspective.

lizmonster · Jul 13, 2020

Since everyone's carping about the word count, I'll share an anecdote about my first book. There was a plot complication my agent kept asking me to move closer to the start of the story. At one point, she told me bluntly I needed the event before the 25% point.

I thought that was unreasonable, impossible. But I shaved and shaved, and after six weeks and I don't know how many back-and-forths, I had that plot complication on the page earlier.

It made the book better. I honestly thought I'd lose too much of the story, but I was wrong.

That said, sure, there are some books that really need to be 190K. Everyone knows about Rothfuss and Clarke. Yours may be one of those books - but if it is, it's worth preparing yourself for rejections based purely on length. Fair or unfair, the length will mean some agents won't bother reading any of it, and its quality won't matter.

I've seen agents on Twitter say they'll cheerfully read epic fantasy at 140K. You might get away with 160K. 190K is pushing it. Just something to be aware of.

Woollybear · Jul 13, 2020

I'll approach this from a different tack. Also, this is my opinion only, it's how my brain works, and many people here have brains that work otherwise. And all of that diversity is OK. So this post may or may not be helpful for you.

So. Are you ready to query? I'd say that if you held your book side by side with a comp title and felt it competed well against that title in a head-to-head match, then you are ready. How do you assess that?

My advice is to format your book to trade-print style (size, font, everything) and print it that way or use a one-off printer like this one that LitDawg found. (There are also printers called espresso printers at some bookstores that will bind a PDF into a 'book' for you.) Then read it alongside the comp title. Open both to page one, and ask which one is superior (craft-wise, hook-wise, etc). Why? Flip to page two and repeat. Etc.

If you are ready to query, you will be able to identify whether your product is of comparable quality to what agents are looking for and have represented. If you cannot tell if yours is of similar quality of not, then I'd say you might be closer to your work than you want to be for this decision.

Incidentally, I was stunned how many new errors--including overwriting--popped out in my face when I put my book into standard print format 'like a real book.' I even repeated this process maybe five times and always found a ton of things that needed editing.

You've not said if you've done this sort of trick or not, or any of the other ones floating about, but it's one way to look at your words with fresh eyes.

In other words, in my opinion you should aim for a dispassionate eye to your own work.

Disclaimer: My work has not found an agent. But I do work on this stuff every day for three years and counting.

mwritesdragons · Jul 13, 2020

Thank you, everyone! This is exactly why I joined AW -- I was lacking in a community to ask questions and have these sorts of conversations with.

These are all good thoughts to chew on.

I am very aware 194K is way over the debut industry standard, even for epic fantasy. The highest I've seen ranges go is 150K, and I understand even 150K could be a hard sell for many agents.

I would also be curious about your beta readers. In my experience, friends and family, even those who are highly educated and readers of the genre in question, can't give the kind of beta feedback that a writer can give.

My betas were mixed: One was a friend who does know me well, the others were friends-of-friends to varying degrees, and one of those is a fellow writer. He gave me the feedback that helped me make some of the bigger cuts I have made already. Though this isn't the first book I've finished necessarily, it was the first time I asked for beta readers so I was leery of stranger-danger when soliciting. The most recent beta reader was probably the person likely to be the most impartial based on the people-who-know-you-well metric. But, it's not an unbiased sample group, for sure, heard. Oh and I had seen that Twitter thread! Appreciate the link for posterity.

"But they NEED to go to all these places!" Well, turns out they didn't.

Chris P, mine is a case of, "But I NEED all these POVs!" Because that's why my book is so long. I have...wait for it...12 (twelve) POV characters. I tend to do the Sanderson/Martin thing of using side character POVs to draw out a certain aspect of the main characters' narratives. More POVs, more need to establish character, more words. And I have tried to make myself cut some of them. I promise! I'm probably not being merciless enough, it's true. (They are all my babies, poor things...) The diversity of perspective is essential to the story earlier scrapped drafts failed to tell.

If I'm right about that, then it may be a story that needs to be this long. And therefore a hard sell. Which I only understand academically at this point. With my pre-rejection rose-colored glasses I have that silly little hope that my sample pages will demand an agent's attention. (While realizing this is unrealistic, writer brain is so contradictory.)

Woollybear -- I wasn't aware of that trick! The only trick I used was during edits, and I set my document to read-only and my tablet to read-mode to mimic an e-reader. I then read it cover to cover trying to be as much of a "normal reader" as I could, and only let myself make comments for future me to deal with. That alone did bring out a lot of pacing issues and inconsistencies for me to work on.

Again, appreciate the anecdotes and thoughts all!

MaeZe · Jul 13, 2020

There's great advice preceding my post. So I'm just going to look at the length issue.

Are the twelve POV characters main characters?

One of my favorite books, The Poisonwood Bible has five POVs and it works very well. The author is a genius writer in my opinion.

Sparknotes: Poisonwood Bible

Narrator The book is narrated by five different characters, Orleanna Price and her four daughters Rachel, Leah, Adah, and Ruth May. ...

Point Of View Each of the narrators speaks in the first person, giving us a view of the story as it looks to them at the time. That is, we see the story through the eyes of the character narrating at the time. What we are most often presented with is simply the thoughts, feelings, and general reactions of the narrator to the events unfolding....

Protagonist Arguably, the protagonist of the story is the only Price who is not given a voice, the father Nathan. It is his blind religious fanaticism that brings the family into the Congo, and it is in reaction to him that all of the women must find their own paths. However, since the story is also largely a story about how these paths are paved out one could also claim that Orleanna, Rachel, Adah, and Leah share the role of protagonist.

The way this novel is structured you can see how purposeful the choices were in POV and protagonist.

If you have twelve character POVs, do they focus on a central protagonist or theme? Are they twelve different stories? Do they see the events from different POVs?

Woollybear · Jul 14, 2020

mwritesdragons said:
I tend to do the Sanderson/Martin thing of using side character POVs to draw out a certain aspect of the main characters' narratives. More POVs, more need to establish character, more words. And I have tried to make myself cut some of them. I promise! I'm probably not being merciless enough, it's true. (They are all my babies, poor things...) The diversity of perspective is essential to the story earlier scrapped drafts failed to tell.

I'm a Mistborn and Elantris fan, and a definite Sanderson fan though cannot get into WoK or WoT, still I am not opposed to many viewpoints... *but*

... I reread Mistborn this year b/c I was guesting on a podcast bookclub. I was stunned to see how deftly he can use viewpoint. There's a guy somewhere around page 500 who we've never met but are suddenly in his viewpoint for all of two pages, in order to learn about the pits of Hathsin.

Again, I was stunned that we simply dropped into a stranger's head, given advice about limiting viewpoints. Clearly there are ways to do it, and elsewhere I've seen the advice that I agree with--A new viewpoint is fine if the reader wants it. We were ready to learn about the pits and Sanderson could have done it through Kelsior revisiting the pits, a flashback, this trick he used, or perhaps some other trick. But this few pages, although in a new viewpoint, did not require us to learn anything about that character--no arc or backstory--we were there to experience the pits, and that was all. So, a couple pages in a stranger's head, and done. But an independent viewpoint.

Additionally though, Sanderson did not publish Mistborn first. (and incidentally on this read-through I did spot areas he could have trimmed downward, for my tastes anyway, but he likes to write and write and his fans are fans.) So although it has a half dozen viewpoints or so, he didn't get an agent on this one, but on Elantris, which IIRC has two viewpoints (I could be **wrong** about that.) Elantris was slim and standalone.

Your manuscript may be perfect. But it bears acknowledging that for Sanderson anyway, it was his ... 12th? manuscript that got an agent and his first deal was for a slim, standalone novel. Then, I believe, he was able to work some of his older manuscripts into marketable form.

Have not read GRRM.

FletcherHavarti · Jul 14, 2020

mwritesdragons said:
Chris P, mine is a case of, "But I NEED all these POVs!" Because that's why my book is so long. I have...wait for it...12 (twelve) POV characters. I tend to do the Sanderson/Martin thing of using side character POVs to draw out a certain aspect of the main characters' narratives. More POVs, more need to establish character, more words. And I have tried to make myself cut some of them. I promise! I'm probably not being merciless enough, it's true. (They are all my babies, poor things...) The diversity of perspective is essential to the story earlier scrapped drafts failed to tell.

If I'm right about that, then it may be a story that needs to be this long. And therefore a hard sell. Which I only understand academically at this point. With my pre-rejection rose-colored glasses I have that silly little hope that my sample pages will demand an agent's attention. (While realizing this is unrealistic, writer brain is so contradictory.)

I'm reminded of George RR Martin with his 10+ POVs in each book. I don't know if your project is as ambitious as his series, but it's an impressive feat if you can pull it off.

GRRM also had a well-established writing career by the time he put out the first book in that series. If he had pitched his first ASOIAF novel as a brand new writer, it might have gone nowhere... we can never know. All of which is to say, don't get discouraged if you do see rejections out of the gate. It's possible that you have a great story that you can only sell once you've published something else first.

But I agree with what Maryn said above: If there's ANY way you can trim this thing down, maybe by taking some subplots out for a sequel, it will make your job of selling the novel a lot easier.

mwritesdragons · Jul 14, 2020

Lots of food for thought, thanks again all! FWIW I consider three of the POV's main characters (two protagonists and an antagonist) the rest are supporting cast members, some get their own subplots which do line up with the central themes of the main narratives (I think they do anyways!)

This has been an effective way to convince myself to slow down and walk a mile before I try to run five. It's time to give editor brain some more caffeine and see how merciless I can be to my darlings.

Unimportant · Jul 14, 2020

mwritesdragons said:
T mine is a case of, "But I NEED all these POVs!" Because that's why my book is so long.

Based just on pure pragmatism, as I can't speak to your book or its quality:

You need all of those POVs for the book to be exactly as it is. You could cut some and create a different book. It may be less rich and nuanced. It may be tighter and easier for the reader to follow. It may lack depth, or it may gain focus. I can't say. But it may be worth you considering what would happen, and if you'd be happy with the result.

From what I can see, you've got three basic options:

1. Cut it down to make it what the market/agents are looking for in a debut novel. Even if it's not AS GOOD as in its current form, as long as it's GOOD ENOUGH, it may get your foot in the door.
2. Leave it as is and send it out, knowing that its length alone will significantly reduce the likelihood that an agent will be interested.
3. Leave it as it is and set it aside. Write another book that will fit better with the debut novel expectations. Once you're established and famous, you can publish this book with as many zillion POV characters as you like, and neither readers nor editors will quibble.

Only you know how badly you want to publish this book, versus how badly you want to be published.

be frank · Jul 14, 2020

Another aspect to consider aside from "Do I really need all these POVs?" is "Do I really need all these words?"

I'm sure you've already cut and culled and tightened, but IME, there's always more to trim. Always. Once you hit 50 posts, it could be worth posting a sample in SYW for critique (side note: a great way to hit that target is to crit other people's work). Just something to think about!

screenscope · Jul 14, 2020

In addition to the points made, no one ever really knows for sure if their manuscript is query ready. It's a guess you have to make yourself, because you can always do more. The thing to remember is that the person you are querying is not expecting perfection, just something close

I query when I reach the, 'f#%k it, I've done enough' stage.

mpack · Jul 14, 2020

Woollybear said:
Your manuscript may be perfect. But it bears acknowledging that for Sanderson anyway, it was his ... 12th? manuscript that got an agent and his first deal was for a slim, standalone novel.

Elantris is ~200k words. Not quite slim, by most standards.

Unimportant · Jul 14, 2020

mpack said:
Elantris is ~200k words. Not quite slim, by most standards.

Hopefully someone who knows more than me -- and honestly no one can know less! -- will chime in re what if anything has changed in the last 15 years since that was published.

lizmonster · Jul 15, 2020

Unimportant said:
Hopefully someone who knows more than me -- and honestly no one can know less! -- will chime in re what if anything has changed in the last 15 years since that was published.

There are always exceptions to the rule. It's not impossible to find rep for a book of unconventional length. It's just more difficult, even if the book is really good.

I know nothing of Sanderson, but it's also possible he didn't query a 200K book. I queried a 109K book, which was combined with another before it was published at 130K. Not nearly as long, of course, but the point is a lot can happen between querying and publication.

In any case, OP - I'll add to the chorus of people recommending Share Your Work. The first few thousand words of a book are often revealing in ways the author doesn't recognize. Whether or not any feedback leads to changes, you'll undoubtedly get good insights. You might consider posting your synopsis there as well.

Sonya Heaney · Jul 15, 2020

screenscope said:
I query when I reach the, 'f#%k it, I've done enough' stage.

Honestly, no matter how fancy and intelligent authors might sometimes sound, that ^^^^ is the best way to decide if your book is ready - at least for me. When I've reached the point I literally cannot look at it anymore I know the book is done.

mpack said:
Elantris is ~200k words. Not quite slim, by most standards.

There are always those books that don't fit requirements and sneak through to success. *Grumbles about authors who manage to do that.*

However, in a few weeks I'll be sending my fourth book off to my publisher, and I still feel like a newbie. I still don't think I can break the rules, and I panic about word counts. There are always exceptions, but before you're an established author your best chances of getting published are to follow the industry standards.

Woollybear · Jul 15, 2020

mpack said:
Elantris is ~200k words. Not quite slim, by most standards.

Wow. My memory was way off on this one--Thank you for the correction.

(Double wow--and it has nine POV characters--I remember two, possibly three. I retract my comment about the metrics of Elantris.)

mpack · Jul 15, 2020

Unimportant said:
Hopefully someone who knows more than me -- and honestly no one can know less! -- will chime in re what if anything has changed in the last 15 years since that was published.

Most secondary world fantasy debuts in the last five years have been between 150-200k words. Tamsyn Muir, R.J. Barker, R.F. Kuang, Anna Spark Smith, David Mealing, S. A. Chakraborty, Nicholas Eames, Melissa Caruso, Tasha Suri. Go back a few years and Wexler, McClellan, Staveley, Islington, etc, are all in the same range.

I find it odd when I see substantially lower numbers recommended.

mwritesdragons · Jul 16, 2020

screenscope said:
I query when I reach the, 'f#%k it, I've done enough' stage.

Half of me feels like I'm at this stage. The other half wrote this post. I'm also on a alternating work schedule still (one week in the office, one week at home, working this week), so next week when I'm at home pretending to be a writer full time we'll see which part of my nature wins out

lizmonster said:
I know nothing of Sanderson, but it's also possible he didn't query a 200K book. I queried a 109K book, which was combined with another before it was published at 130K. Not nearly as long, of course, but the point is a lot can happen between querying and publication.

Yeah, I think I'm going to make it a point at every (especially SFF) author Q&A how long their book was when they queried! Because there are a fair number of recent exceptions that could show a trend -- but we don't know what those books looked like before they had rep. Very much a newbie, but if there is a different between the word count advice we see most commonly, what agents are repping, and what publishers are buying, it'd be nice to have indications. Not that anything but the writing really matters in the end, but, I always like having more data.

mpack said:
Most secondary world fantasy debuts in the last five years have been between 150-200k words. Tamsyn Muir, R.J. Barker, R.F. Kuang, Anna Spark Smith, David Mealing, S. A. Chakraborty, Nicholas Eames, Melissa Caruso, Tasha Suri. Go back a few years and Wexler, McClellan, Staveley, Islington, etc, are all in the same range.

I find it odd when I see substantially lower numbers recommended.

If I had to guess, I think it's because agents would rather have the strong bones of a story to beef up in editing, than a behemoth to cut? Who knows. But, a high word count can easily indicate poorer writing. I know this firsthand, because the actual first draft of this novel I completed in year redacted from slight embarrassment was also 217K, and it was by my standards BAD. So, in that case, it's most efficient for agents to request a 120-150K max to knock out the majority of the chaff.

Woollybear · Jul 16, 2020

mwritesdragons said:
... if there is a different between the word count advice we see most commonly, what agents are repping, and what publishers are buying, it'd be nice to have indications. Not that anything but the writing really matters in the end, but, I always like having more data.

ICYMI Query tracker (even the free version) indicates the lengths of manuscripts (in 10K bins) requested by agents, under 'reports.'

lizmonster · Jul 16, 2020

mpack said:
Most secondary world fantasy debuts in the last five years have been between 150-200k words. Tamsyn Muir, R.J. Barker, R.F. Kuang, Anna Spark Smith, David Mealing, S. A. Chakraborty, Nicholas Eames, Melissa Caruso, Tasha Suri. Go back a few years and Wexler, McClellan, Staveley, Islington, etc, are all in the same range.

Again: There are always exceptions to the rule, and you don't know how long these books were when they were queried (or if these were the books that got the author an agent).

Fair or unfair, a debut author querying a book that's longer than "conventional wisdom" suggests it should be is going to have a harder time of it. Not necessarily an impossible time, if the book is good - but there are agents who will reject on length. The book should be as long as the book needs to be, but it's good to have your expectations in the right place: you're likely to get a lower request rate, even with an excellent query.

Woollybear said:
ICYMI Query tracker (even the free version) indicates the lengths of manuscripts (in 10K bins) requested by agents, under 'reports.'

These things help, but it's worth remembering QueryTracker data is self-reported. You can sign up and use the service without providing any of this information. So it's maybe better than anecdotal, but not by a lot.

gothicangel · Jul 18, 2020

My advice would be to put a bit of space between you and the book (1 month?) and then go for a One Pass Edit (my favourite model being Holly Lisle). https://hollylisle.com/one-pass-manuscript-revision-from-first-draft-to-last-in-one-cycle/

Also, I would say that there's a difference between a writer like GRR Martin who is tried and tested submitting a 194k book and someone who is querying a debut.

Am I Actually Query Ready?

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