Police Brutality In Crime Fiction?

gothicangel

Toughen up.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
7,907
Reaction score
691
Location
North of the Wall
I am currently reading a novel with a scene that has a senior police officer banging the head of a just-arrested suspect's head off a wall until it bleeds. Personally, I found it repellent and would like to believe that the majority of police officers are professional and good people. Officers who do such things have no right to be in their jobs. Now if the plot had been revolving around a Floyd-type incident, then I would have accepted it, rooting for the officer to get what was coming to them. But to me this was gratuitous and glorifying the kind of police behaviour we have seen recently.

Any thoughts?
 

Maryn

Sees All
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,320
Reaction score
25,288
Location
Snow Cave
There was a time when I read a lot of police procedurals and mysteries in which the POV character is an outlier-type police officer. While many glorify the beat cop as a hero who does no wrong, what we consider police brutality is also commonplace, and sometimes part of the hero cop's basic behavior. It doesn't happen to a character who doesn't deserve it--except, of course, no character deserves it.

Maryn, who rewatched Dirty Harry a few months back and cringed repeatedly--he needed to be fired
 

gothicangel

Toughen up.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
7,907
Reaction score
691
Location
North of the Wall
There was a time when I read a lot of police procedurals and mysteries in which the POV character is an outlier-type police officer. While many glorify the beat cop as a hero who does no wrong, what we consider police brutality is also commonplace, and sometimes part of the hero cop's basic behavior. It doesn't happen to a character who doesn't deserve it--except, of course, no character deserves it.

Maryn, who rewatched Dirty Harry a few months back and cringed repeatedly--he needed to be fired

:)

Just read another chapter. The same cop has just committed hit-and-run (while drunk) and now MC is covering up for her. Now I want to write a novel about the police watchdog investigating police brutality/corruption.
 

Maryn

Sees All
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,320
Reaction score
25,288
Location
Snow Cave
If you do, I will buy it!

I suppose the author is showing us the Blue Wall that no cop, good or bad, willingly breaks unless his plan is to quit and move far away, because surely the author doesn't think drunk driving resulting in a hit-and-run is A-OK.

There's a reason the good cops don't pull the bad cops off or cooperate with Internal Affairs. Yet the city where I used to live voted down a movement to have a non-police board investigate claims of improper or illegal behavior by the police.

The main cop series I still read is Michael Connelly's Harry Bosch. I'm pretty sure Harry condemns the acts of bad cops, but IIRC, sometimes he gets in trouble for being one. Now I want to reread some and see for sure. Although it might be an interesting question to pose to authors on Twitter and elseweb.

Maryn, rarely this political online
 

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
31,660
Reaction score
11,406
Location
lost among the words
I'm presently writing a Fantasy police procedural, so I've been thinking about this kind of thing and what I want to do with it. My goal for my heroes is that violence is always the absolute last resort and not a default. In everything I've written thus far, there are no gun fights--not even magic fights (that they start, though they might finish it). My POV char is a stick-in-the-mud, by-the-book kinda guy and it's hard to get him to waver. The other hero isn't as strict on that, however because he's ex-Black Ops, he's not anxious to start anything violent because he knows what he can do and how it will end.

My world is ours (with magic) in the year 2000. Brutality was a reality there. I'm going to have to address it in some way at some point, but it's the focus of the series. But, no, I don't see how my heroes are going to be able to go with that flow.

Will have to do more thought on the subject. Thanks for the subject.
 

kinokonoronin

Purveyor of Madness
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 13, 2020
Messages
568
Reaction score
581
Location
US
I [...] would like to believe that the majority of police officers are professional and good people.

And yet minimal research will bear out the fact that this is not the case. I'm sure they think of themselves as professional and good people, and most of them are nice folk when they're not in uniform. But what you call...

the kind of police behaviour we have seen recently

...is, in actuality, the kind of police behavior that occurs every day. This is the norm, and it has been ever since the US became a police state. That so many people don't see this is a testament to how unequal the daily experiences are between different portions of the populace (and how biased our media is).

Edit: forgot to say that I agree with the general point. That behavior should not be glorified, of course. And cop hero characters should probably focus on the less-violent interpretations of the trope. But disproportionate and unnecessary police violence probably should be represented. And we should be careful not to lionize the police force as an organization since in real life they are a suppressive force of -- at best -- ambiguous moral quality.
 
Last edited:

gothicangel

Toughen up.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
7,907
Reaction score
691
Location
North of the Wall
Edit: forgot to say that I agree with the general point. That behavior should not be glorified, of course. And cop hero characters should probably focus on the less-violent interpretations of the trope. But disproportionate and unnecessary police violence probably should be represented. And we should be careful not to lionize the police force as an organization since in real life they are a suppressive force of -- at best -- ambiguous moral quality.

Maybe this is a US/UK thing.

However, I find it hard to stomach seeing characters behave in such a way in novels and then not be made to pay a price (as what happened in this book - heck, in the book the hit-and-run was never mentioned again).
 

kinokonoronin

Purveyor of Madness
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 13, 2020
Messages
568
Reaction score
581
Location
US
characters behave in such a way in novels and then not be made to pay a price

Yeah, it's unsatisfying for sure! I don't think most books should treat these sorts of actions in a consequence free manner. Leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Unless it were thematically relevant to the book that the cop see no consequences (i.e. the book is about the injustice of violence from authority), which I'm guessing is not the case for the book in question.
 

mewellsmfu

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
488
Reaction score
194
I would be very interested to know your sources for the premise that "minimal research bears out the fact that it is not the case" that "the majority of police officers are professional and good people." And by research, I mean facts, figures, research, not opinion, by unbiased recognized professional organizations/institutions/individuals and their methodology. There are 800,000 police officers in this country. I'd like to see the data that establishes that more than 400,000 of them are not good people.

Please, share some of your research.
 

kinokonoronin

Purveyor of Madness
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 13, 2020
Messages
568
Reaction score
581
Location
US
I'd like to see the data that establishes that more than 400,000 of them are not good people.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not asking in bad faith from a heels-in viewpoint, feel free to DM me. I don't want to derail gothicangel's whole thread which, I think, has more to do with consequences for unethical/immoral actions taken by main characters. After you DM me we can find a more appropriate place on the forum for a robust and fact-based discussion about this.
 

mewellsmfu

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
488
Reaction score
194
I feel no need to pursue this, kinokonoronin, although I confess I have no idea what "bad faith from a heels-in viewpoint" means, nor do I need a "robust and fact-based discussion" about this subject. My point was that fact should be separated from opinion. If you state something as a fact, then be prepared to defend it as such. I don't ask people to defend their opinions, just that they always consider that their opinions are not necessarily facts.

Thus, if you'd prefaced your statement with "in my opinion" I would be fine with it. What I quibbled with is presenting something as a fact and not being willing to put your cards on the table.

That said, I absolutely agree we should respect thread integrity and I personally derive a great deal of joy (and knowledge) from the good people I have met on this site, so I am fine with leaving this alone. And whatever your writing goals are, I hope you fulfill them.
 

kinokonoronin

Purveyor of Madness
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 13, 2020
Messages
568
Reaction score
581
Location
US
I likewise hope that you fulfill your writing goals.

Nevertheless you have inherently challenged my integrity in a deeply meaningful way. You have, in effect, insinuated that I have represented my opinion as fact.

I have not. I come from a reasonably well-researched viewpoint and yes, I can back up my claims. Your final response here is a sort of "last word" message signaling that you are correct and I am wrong. I am content with disagreement of course. It's the matter of accusing me of misrepresenting opinion as truth that cannot be left alone. You're essentially telling me these three messages: "you're deceiving", "back up your argument with evidence" and "I don't want to hear your evidence". It's fine if you don't legitimately care, and I will not pursue this discussion beyond this last post, but you cannot both demand evidence and refuse to engage with it. This belies a preexisting bias of opinion and an unwillingness to consider evidence -- so don't challenge me for it. That is exactly what I meant by "bad faith".

As for my basic claim, you misunderstood it. This is, I think, a consequence of how I quoted the OP. I admit fault for that particular misunderstanding, which was a communicative error on my end.

I quoted this bit:

I [...] would like to believe that the majority of police officers are professional and good people.

And it DOES seem like my basic claim might be "police officers are unprofessional and/or bad people". Whether people are good or bad is facile and, frankly, barren grounds for discussion. This was never my point. Note that afterward, I quoted the more relevant point:

the kind of police behaviour we have seen recently.

My main point is that, with minimal research, you will come across overwhelming evidence that the recently publicized police behavior is 1) nothing new and 2) historically an everyday occurrence. CAN I back this up with factual evidence? Yes. No doubt. Is it my responsibility to educate people about easily searchable statistics and the very public history of a large governmental organization? Not really. If anyone wants this info, I can point you in the right direction, but I don't think I'm required to offer proof of facts which are public knowledge. The same way that I won't site extensive physics research when mentioning gravity or magnetism.

I won't be characterized as an irrational person or a liar, especially in a public place with an audience. That being said, let me reiterate that I take responsibility for the aforementioned communicative failure. I should have made my main point more clear. I don't personally characterize people as "good" or "bad" and that was not what I was doing here. It is my fault that you read it that way, though. I had hoped to go over this all in DMs so you understood all this, but your last post necessitated that I do so here instead.

Lastly, I hold no ill will and am sure you are a lovely person.

Apologies to gothicangel for the tangent. I'd rather not have done this here.
 

Goshawk31

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 12, 2020
Messages
68
Reaction score
7
True story

A very interesting thread, for which I thank you all. Occasionally, the good guys win & here's a case in point:

My daughter was driving home from a trip to Texas with three dogs in the car. In a small town, in the dead of night, she turned in to get some gas. A cop stopped her, told her she had not stopped long enough at the stop sign, said he would take her to jail except for the dogs and confiscated her driver's license. So there she was. Couldn't get a hotel room b'c no driver's license; was afraid even to drive for fear the guy (who had parked nearby and was watching her) really would take her to jail. She spent the night at the gas station, with the three dogs. Terrified.

My husband and I got up the minute she called (around 1 a.m.), drove to the small town and arrived shortly after dawn. We then ferried her home and, furious, called a lawyer friend. The lawyer friend was equally furious; offered to take the case pro bono; showed up in court armed with all kinds of info, including the fact that the cop took her license without cause; and ... the cop got fired.

Now, did he get rehired? I don't think so but cannot be sure. At any rate, there was some retribution. But the hard part is: Ever since then, she has feared the police and I don't blame her.

Just my 2¢ because I appreciate this thread.
 
Last edited:

Calla Lily

On hiatus
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
39,307
Reaction score
17,489
Location
Non carborundum illegitimi
Website
www.aliceloweecey.net
Hey, gang. Popping to remind everyone to assume good will on the part of everyone posting. If you sense feelings are getting hot, please STOP and reread your post. Add explanations, edit, or simply copy it to a clipboard and save it for later.

Citations and facts should be out in the open so everyone in the discussion can see where each POV is coming from. A simple link will do. In this way the conversation can continue and be helpful for writing well-rounded characters and worlds which make sense.

"As you know, Bob," the world is crazy, time has lost all meaning, and if nothing else cabin fever may be here for quite awhile. IOW, we all may be on a shorter fuse than normal. An extra level of patience is more than helpful; it's necessary.

Thanks.
 

cmhbob

Did...did I do that?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
5,729
Reaction score
4,773
Location
Green Country
Website
www.bobmuellerwriter.com
The next series I've got in mind, that I've basically been planning for over a year, is supposed to be an Oklahoma-based police procedural. The original plan was to bounce around from agency to agency, kind of like an episode of COPS or LivePD. But I'd also go home with the cops, like Hill Street Blues or SouthLAnd. Kind of like Wambaugh's Hollywood Station books, and 87th Precinct. You might not see the same officers in each book, because I might be in the Panhandle in book 3, and over in Green Country in book 5. But there would be continuity throughout the series, where officers in one agency might talk about the weird case over in Enid, or something like that.

But I've honestly been second-guessing that whole idea right now. As I sat down to look at some ideas, it seemed very "cop-worshippy," and that was never really my intention. So I figured out that I need to revise some ideas, and I may change the whole focus anyway.

I really didn't need another reason to think this whole series over. I'm kind of wondering what the police procedural market is doing right now. I know the overall market seems to be depressed, but I wonder if cop stories are doing any better or worse.
 

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
1,737
Reaction score
426
Location
Haunted Louisiana
. . . I'm kind of wondering what the police procedural market is doing right now. I know the overall market seems to be depressed, but I wonder if cop stories are doing any better or worse.

I'm in general agreement that the mystery/police procedural market seemed a little slow, if not depressed; but, I suspect that's changing, albeit subtly. Maybe the Covid-19 situation has something to do with it (more folks at home and all, a bit bored? . . . IDK). At any rate, my sales have ticked up and I've gotten some inquiries (unfortunately short of actual offers) typically regarding rights (dramatic/film, graphic novel rights, etc.)--even a probe from a computer gaming enterprise (that was a surprise, to say the least). Most of this interest (but not all) is centered on a m/s/t/pp published in late 2015--go figure?
 

ChaseJxyz

Writes 🏳️‍⚧️🌕🐺 and 🏳️‍⚧️🌕🐺 accessories
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2020
Messages
4,524
Reaction score
6,202
Location
The Rottenest City on the Pacific Coast
Website
www.chasej.xyz
(In America, I can't speak for other countries) there is a really interesting history about policing. What we think of as the police is a very modern invention. This video does a really good job explaining it, but to tl;dr they were created for catching fugitive slaves. Crime hasn't increased over the years, we have only just created "new" crimes. Cough medicine used to be cannabis, heroin and meth all in one handy little bottle, but now any of those things can get you thrown in jail and ruin your life.

There is also a really long history of cop propaganda in the US (which this video goes over pretty well, too). I'll admit it, I love SVU, but it's propaganda and it takes advantage of the ignorance of the law of the viewers. An individual doesn't choose to "press charges," for example, and the cops need a warrant in their hands before they kick in your door and arrest you, not hope the judge gets it signed by the time they take you to the precinct. The first 12 seasons Elliot broke laws, procedures, physically assaulted suspects etc, and people would always say "Oh Elliot you can't do that, desk duty for a week" but it was always framed as it was a just thing to do. Who's going to stand up for a pedophile when their teeth get knocked out? When the cops break the laws, it's because they have to, they can't wait for a warrant, a child might die, someone else might get assaulted. In a recent episode someone was taking upskirt photos of women on the subway. He was black and was wearing a really specific outfit. He does this to the rookie female cop and she chases him, calling out his description on her radio (black male), so some cops in the station end up grabbing some random black man who's calmly walking and minding his own business, ignoring the black man who's very clearly running from something. Random citizens pull out their phones and yell "Police brutality! They're arresting an innocent black man!" and the entire story is "The police are trying their best! Don't be so judgmental!" It was so disgusting. This only happened in the story because the cop gave an intentionally vague description, because the cops forgot to use their brains and realize someone running is more suspicious than someone who isn't. In an episode where an innocent unarmed black man was shot and killed by the police, it was framed in the same way. The cops had no way of knowing he was not the suspect, a rookie was legitimately afraid and had to empty his entire clip etc etc. Not everyone is media/genre-savy enough to realize that this is propaganda and is telling us that it's okay for the cops to break rules, since they're only doing it for our benefit. I can go on about the history of superheroes, especially Batman, and the history of inept policing but this post is already getting really long.

People are still going to want to read/watch/consume police stories, people still want to see bad guys get caught, they still want to get into the mind of a serial killer and why they do what they do, but I think we should be mindful of how we portray things and do our due diligence. We need to be aware of why there are certain policies, laws, norms, etc, what affects those have on people. We can't pretend that all cops are good cops, or that breaking rules is justified. The original "loose canon cops who don't play by the rules" did so because the police were "ineffective" and corrupt in general, that's why Gotham needed Batman. If anything, if your cop is breaking rules, they are doing so because they refuse to uphold unjust and discriminatory policies and laws. I think it would be much, much more interesting to see a cop trying to fix the system from the inside and take down bad guys, no matter who they are or the uniform they wear, because they honestly believe in the spirit, and not necessarily the letter, of the law.
 

kinokonoronin

Purveyor of Madness
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 13, 2020
Messages
568
Reaction score
581
Location
US
But I've honestly been second-guessing that whole idea right now. As I sat down to look at some ideas, it seemed very "cop-worshippy," and that was never really my intention. So I figured out that I need to revise some ideas, and I may change the whole focus anyway.

Good on you for rethinking it. I certainly enjoy the idea of bouncing from agency to agency. Especially if there still exists a sense of continuity and/or guest appearances. I'm a sucker for those.

If anything, if your cop is breaking rules, they are doing so because they refuse to uphold unjust and discriminatory policies and laws.

Always a strong premise because there's built-in conflict and the main character gets likability points so long as the reader can agree with their core principles. There are real-life examples to draw on as well.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
The British and American books and TV/movies I have seen have a common trope where a hero cop "breaks the rules" to get a bad guy, while facing opposition from a coward boss and/or rule-following peer (often female).

Of course this is all predicated on the hero cop being perfectly accurate in telling who is a bad guy, and the bad guy "deserving" whatever happens to him up to and including death.

Hopefully this trope is on the way to retirement, or at least not being quite so common. Time for an internal affairs hero.