Abolition of the Police

AMCrenshaw

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Let us talk.
Possible benefits. Possible harm.
What could keep peace better than police?


*personal note: I am writing from a phone and have technical difficulties at times. Please bear with me if I derp. *
 

jennontheisland

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Things like welfare/wellness checks for could be done by social workers, with police backup on call or standby only.
 

lizmonster

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What do you mean wellness checks? Door to door? How frequently? Is there a non invasive way to perform such tasks?

Not to speak for anyone, but around here, if you want a wellness check for (say) an elderly relative, you call the police for that. Similarly if you're concerned about someone's mental health. This isn't what the police are trained to do, and yet it's a fair percentage of what they spend their time doing. Seems sensible to conclude public money would be better spent shoring up the systems that ARE trained to deal with such situations.

A June 19 article in the NYT (warning: paywall) asserted 4% of police calls involve violent crime. That seems like a lot of responsibilities that could be redirected elsewhere.
 

jennontheisland

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Wellness checks are social welfare or mental health check-ins by police initiated by the community. Usually if someone goes silent, or has a history of mental illness, and you're concerned about that person, your only option to have someone check on them is the police. https://globalnews.ca/news/7092621/police-wellness-checks-experts-change/

Calling police to mental health crises rarely seems to end well, and in Canada, the primary victims of police wellness checks are Indigenous (POC).
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-...ous-woman-shot-by-police-edmundston-1.5601097

I've had psychologists threaten me with wellness checks when I was experiencing suicidal ideation, and if officers had shown up at my door during those times in my life, I would not have gone quietly.
 
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Lyv

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I'll let you Google "wellness checks" if you don't get the gist from this article about police killing people, especially Black people, during wellness checks. Off the top of my head, I can remember half a dozen victims. Some are different from the examples given in the article.

When a police wellness check becomes a death sentence

The tweet is blunt: "Dear neighbors (and I mean this in the most sincere way) please don't ever, EVER call the police to do a welfare check on me. PERIOD."


It's a sentiment some African Americans are expressing on social media and elsewhere since Atatiana Jefferson, a 28-year-old black woman, was shot and killed last weekend by a Fort Worth, Texas, police officer who was conducting a wellness check at her home.
 

Gregg

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You can abolish the police but doing so will not abolish criminals. People commit crimes not because of the police but because they think the police won't catch them. Eventually some sort of law enforcement will emerge In most communities. They won't all be the same. In some areas the guy or guys with the biggest guns will be the law.
Will a District Attorney prosecute someone brought in by vigilantes? Would a judge try them?
The police are part of a bigger system. All parts of the system are needed in order to function.
Don't abolish the police. Provide better training. Make it easier to get rid of bad cops. Then look at city policies and leaders and find out where changes must be made.

- - - Updated - - -
 

MaeZe

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Keep in mind, one reason people call police to check on someone that hasn't been seen outside their home and isn't answering the phone (wellness check) is because no one can break in to check on them except the police.

And sending social workers to help someone in a mental health crisis without police backup is dangerous.

The status quo, however, is untenable.
 

Roxxsmom

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What do you mean wellness checks? Door to door? How frequently? Is there a non invasive way to perform such tasks?

My understanding is a wellness check is what you do when you have a neighbor, family member, or friend whose health you are concerned about and you can't get in touch with them or visit in person. Like, say, I couldn't reach my elderly mom for several days (she lives in another part of the state). One time, when I lived in an apartment complex, an elderly resident was wandering around with tweezers, asking people to help him "remove something" from his ear. I looked in his ear, and there was nothing there, but he insisted he was going to try to remove whatever it was himself, and couldn't be dissuaded. He seemed rather disoriented, and I was concerned he might injure himself. So I called 911 and told them about the situation, and they sent police officers, not health care workers or paramedics. Police officers are often the "go-to" people they send when there's a situation with someone behaving oddly, or there's a potential health issue that isn't immediately life threatening.

In this case, it ended OK (though the elderly man's family sent him off to a nursing home not long after), but what if he'd been black? What if he'd been acting more belligerent or confrontational, or if he'd gotten freaked out by the cops coming? What if I'd lived in a "higher crime" neighborhood, where cops are more jumpy and on edge? What if they'd gone to the wrong address or apartment? In any of these cases, or a combination of these, it could have ended badly, like it did for Atatiana Jefferson when neighbors called the police because her front door was open and the neighbors were concerned for her well being.

It would be nice if there were some social workers on call, or people whose go-to mechanism for dealing with problems isn't to pull out their gun and shoot something or someone. Yes, cops are needed to "break into" homes in these situations and to be backup, but if the mental health worker or health care worker is in "the lead," it changes the entire tone of the visit. But we've underfunded everything from animal care to human social services in this country, so the police department often has to step in and deal with situations they aren't really equipped to deal with without direct access to people who are trained to keep situations non violent.

It would also be nice if cops weren't trained with the assumption that they live in "combat zones" and so should respond with extreme force to any resistance, or even to any uncertainty, as if they were actually soldiers under fire. I am not sure that this even makes it safer for them, since it has turned entire communities against the police and created a level of fear and resentment that makes some perpetrators more likely to fight back or flee. It's very troubling that a highly popular police training system in this country likens the public to being either sheep or wolves (and law enforcement is the sheepdogs). Not only is that rather insulting, it's dangerously simplistic and does not consider how nuanced most people are. This guy needs to be put out of business.

Policing in this country is not working for a large segment of our population, and it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. In addition to the long-term issue of institutionalized racism and systematic inequality and personal biases that lead even Black police officers to treat Black suspects differently, we have the fallout from decades of the complete failure known as the "war on drugs" which has criminalized a social and mental health issue and created a mentality that law enforcement is "at war" with an entire segment of the population.
 
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mccardey

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I did read an interesting thing recently (I'll try to find a link) that said a close examination of events showed that acts of police brutality (particularly shootings) were more common in cases where police had just come from one violent/distressing case straight to the next case. The suggestion was that some chill-out debrief thing should be mandatory.

I think if you're going to keep a militarised police-force, which America seems to want, that would be an excellent add-in.

I'll need time to remember where I read it. Will find a link.
 

frimble3

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Yes, wellness/welfare checks should be done by someone other than the police. A social worker or a paramedic, perhaps. There are probably some fine reliable police officers out there, but some cannot seem to step back from 'policing' to 'helping'. And, if there are mental or physical problems, most of them are probably of no more help than a kindly passerby.
If the victim/person of interest has a negative opinion of police officers (and that isn't just POC, just ask the poor or teen-agers) the officers' presence may only escalate things.
It's not just in-home welfare checks, where the responders have an idea as to who they're going to see. There are also the times when they're called because of someone wandering the streets, or raving outside a store, or otherwise worrying people.
 

jennontheisland

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<snipped>

It would also be nice if cops weren't trained with the assumption that they live in "combat zones" and so should respond with extreme force to any resistance, or even to any uncertainty, as if they were actually soldiers under fire. I am not sure that this even makes it safer for them, since it has turned entire communities against the police and created a level of fear and resentment that makes some perpetrators more likely to fight back or flee. It's very troubling that a highly popular police training system in this country likens the public to being either sheep or wolves (and law enforcement is the sheepdogs). Not only is that rather insulting, it's dangerously simplistic and does not consider how nuanced most people are. This guy needs to be put out of business.

Policing in this country is not working for a large segment of our population, and it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. In addition to the long-term issue of institutionalized racism and systematic inequality and personal biases that lead even Black police officers to treat Black suspects differently, we have the fallout from decades of the complete failure known as the "war on drugs" which has criminalized a social and mental health issue and created a mentality that law enforcement is "at war" with an entire segment of the population.

The dangerous simplifications may be required if this ancient story about people being selected out of the class for being too smart is still valid:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

And yes, the wars that we have cops fighting need to be withdrawn from.... maybe they wouldn't feel the need for military grade gear and weapons if we stopped telling them they are at war.

Yes, wellness/welfare checks should be done by someone other than the police. A social worker or a paramedic, perhaps. There are probably some fine reliable police officers out there, but some cannot seem to step back from 'policing' to 'helping'. And, if there are mental or physical problems, most of them are probably of no more help than a kindly passerby.
If the victim/person of interest has a negative opinion of police officers (and that isn't just POC, just ask the poor or teen-agers) the officers' presence may only escalate things.
It's not just in-home welfare checks, where the responders have an idea as to who they're going to see. There are also the times when they're called because of someone wandering the streets, or raving outside a store, or otherwise worrying people.

Nice catch on the public disturbance. Those are cases where de-escalation by non-authority figures are likely options.
 
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AMCrenshaw

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Have they “kept peace”?


I wouldn't be posting this if I truly believed the Police were peace keepers, no.

Someone had asked me a very direct question that upset me to answer (so I didn't): when was the last time the Police helped you, as opposed to instilled you with fear or inconvenienced your life?
 
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mccardey

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I wouldn't be posting this if I truly believed the Police were peace keepers, no.

Someone had asked me a very direct question that upset me to answer (so I didn't): when was the last time the Police helped you, as opposed to instilled you with fear or inconvenienced your life?
You're only asking for the American experience, I'm guessing?
 

AMCrenshaw

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Thank you for the insights about wellness checks. Surprised after so many years i honestly didn't know about them, or the police's involvement with them, which admittedly makes no sense to me.

Part of what drives me here is a desire to focus more on victims than perpetrators although i am convinced some part of the news/media, even of the worst sort, is for some a form of entertainment and not much more. And victims aren't as intriguing as villains; neither do they garner the proper amount of attention, nor receive a proper amount of aid, in my opinion.



In my opinion it is untenable to support the Police in their current iteration and I do not believe I would support a militarized clone copy repackaged as something more peaceful.
No matter how wonderful sounding the precepts.

***
I would like to discuss obvious issues here. How does a community respond to things like domestic violence or any violence I guess that is happening in real time. What would our crisis responders be like? Would they carry guns to defend themselves? Etc.

***
I think it is a rational fear to believe that those with the biggest guns will run the town because that's what happens now. So to support the status quo, which i am gonna go ahead and define the US by its policing, is to assert not only that you are ok with granting some with the ability to kill, however little they earned it (and how could they?) but the ability to kill specific people.

And we know which people.

I've had enough. I hope anyone who reads this finds a way to rid themselves of the desire to rule by hatred and fear rather than by compassion.
 

jennontheisland

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I wouldn't be posting this if I truly believed the Police were peace keepers, no.

Someone had asked me a very direct question that upset me to answer (so I didn't): when was the last time the Police helped you, as opposed to instilled you with fear or inconvenienced your life?

Canadian teenager experience (metalheads with long hair and a lot of black clothing, white, lower middle / working class, in a primarily white city):

Cops were a hassle, asked us to empty our pockets, chased us out of playgrounds where we hung out, and were never once seen when we were breaking into construction sites and climbing onto low rise buildings. Cops "carded" my friends (a Canadian police practice where they demand to see your papers) and occasionally walked off with their weed.

I had a few friends get tossed to the ground, knelt on, scuffled with, handcuffed and thrown in the back of a cop car before being released (those ones were always clearly for power display), and once a couple were held in a jail cell overnight without formal arrest because they looked vaguely like a description given about a break and enter call. They were released the next day, no charges, no apology.

I came from anti-authoritarian parents who taught me to ask "am I under arrest" if a cop tried asking me anything, because they were not to be trusted with any information. My father was particularly paranoid, but had many run-ins with them himself as a teenager and young adult who lived a counter-culture lifestyle

As an adult, I've only ever been pulled over for speeding, or some kind of registration lapse and each time it was a ticket and done. I have always assumed this is because I'm white and female.

The only time a cop has helped me: Because of my upbringing and general disdain for authority, I enjoy asking police officers who are standing imposingly on a sidewalk for directions. They have all helped me find a nearby street. (note that at no time did I need the directions, I just like diminishing their authority to that of a map or tour guide).
 
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mccardey

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I wouldn't be posting this if I truly believed the Police were peace keepers, no.

Someone had asked me a very direct question that upset me to answer (so I didn't): when was the last time the Police helped you, as opposed to instilled you with fear or inconvenienced your life?

Well, all the police I had contact with during the recent-ish Australian fire catastrophe were kind and exhausted and patient and very helpful. I've never felt afraid to approach police, and I've never come away feeling worse for the encounter.

But even down here, that would not be the universal experience - though it would be the usual white experience. There are horrific problems here with police brutality toward Aboriginal people, especially in remote areas (but also in the cities).
 

AMCrenshaw

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Wow, just fuckin wow. After reading about wellness checks i read about Elijah McClain, from August 2019, a young man police murdered for appearing weird. Smh. I think i have to go back to sleep.
 

lizmonster

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I once called the police when my live-in partner (now long ex), who'd called me around 6 saying he was on his way home, hadn't showed up by 2:00 am.

An officer came to the apartment. He seemed relaxed and unconcerned about my partner, which was actually a relief. He said he was likely drunk and pulled over somewhere, sleeping it off. (He was right about the drunk part, wrong about the pulled over part). He took the report, and told me to call the police station if/when my partner showed up.

My partner came home shortly after the police officer left. When I called the station to report this, the officer said "I'm glad to hear that." And then, quite seriously, "Tell him that if I'd still been there when he got home, I'd've busted him for a DUI."

I didn't tell my partner that, because it would have made him angry. (Pretty sure he never found out I called the police.)

Had I been a non-white woman in this situation, I have no doubt my reception would have been different. And my partner would absolutely have been taken in for a DUI. Frankly, I wish he had been - in this particular case, the officer's "kindness" to me ignored evidence that this guy had been on the road for hours under the influence.

What kind of service would be better than the police in that case? I don't know. But they for sure wouldn't have needed military gear, or even guns.
 

jennontheisland

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Wow, just fuckin wow. After reading about wellness checks i read about Elijah McClain, from August 2019, a young man police murdered for appearing weird. Smh. I think i have to go back to sleep.

JFC, they shot him up with ketamine! That kid OD'd; the paramedics killed him at the behest of the cops.

The original caller has never been identified in any of the articles I've found. No weapon, no one in immediate danger, just a black kid in an out-of-season hat dancing his way down the street. That is the clearest case of "arrest him because he's black" that I've seen in a long time.

If cops are going to keep carrying guns, they need to start doing it in a way that does not allow the public to take it from them. There also need to be clear rules about responses to "reaching" for things. Because reaching toward someone is not illegal and shouldn't be. Until someone actually takes the gun, no crime has been committed. My understanding is that US cops are not allowed to prevent a crime (thought police and all that), and have to wait until one is committed. No crime is committed until the gun is taken, so "he was reaching for my gun" should never be an allowable argument for the defense.
 
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