5th Century Ship Mooring on River

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WriteMinded

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The Situation: Saxon ships were banked on a British river, and then, when the occupants were through murdering and plundering, left the area.

Question: Is there a way to determine whether they took their ships on upriver or turned back the way they came?

Really appreciate any input. Thanks.
 

Mutive

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I don't know a huge amount about Saxon sailing technology, so a lot is dependent upon this. I do know a bit about sailing, though, so will chime in on that aspect.

Regardless, one can eventually sail (with modern technology) in any direction that *isn't* within 45 degrees of whatever upwind was. But it took a long while for the technology to develop (both keel and sail - I believe the Vikings did much of the work on the keel, the ancient Greeks had some idea as to how to use the sail dynamics - but, eh, I could be wrong there) to get anywhere near 45 degrees. Before that, you could go down wind and maybe slightly upwind, but only slightly.

Now, of course, it's pretty easy to tack to go upwind (if the wind is coming from the north and you want to go north, you start at NE, then go NW, go NE, NW again, and keep going and going until you hit wherever you want to be). But without that technology, going upwind is difficult.

Depending on the technology + river width (you need at least some distance to tack effectively), you could potentially rule out *sailing* both up river and upwind. (Or at least sailing far in a limited time frame.)

Of course, if the ship has oars (I believe most did prior to better sailing technology), that's off, too. (Because they could just lower their sails and paddle upwind.)
 

jclarkdawe

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Most likely boat used by the Saxon's would have been a longboat. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship Incredible boats capable of doing a lot of different things. It would have been based on the Viking's boat, as this type of boat was capable of handling the North Sea. It would be able to row upriver and under certain conditions, sail up the river.

The problem with rivers for attacks is the limited range of motion a river provides. You can basically only go in two directions, rather than the much larger choice of directions when you're in a sea. Defenders could use the shore for cover and launch projectiles at you such as rocks, spears, and arrows. If the defenders' technology included flaming arrows, then there was a strong possibility of being set on fire, one of the most dangerous situations for a ship.

Defenders, and the depth of the river, would be the limiting factors in going upstream. Although longboats were not deep draft boats, they'd still need a couple of feet of water, the exact amount depending upon the size of the boat.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

WriteMinded

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Thanks so much for answering guys. Really appreciate you taking the time and trying to help.

However, to reiterate my question: Is there a way to determine whether they took their ships on upriver or turned back the way they came? Such as, If I drive into my driveway and leave tire tracks, you would be able to tell which direction I came from. If I backed out again and left tracks, you would be able to tell which direction I went. I was wanting to know if a ship/boat/whatever you want to call it, would/could leave marks on the bank that would leave similar evidence.
 

waylander

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I don't think there would be any way to tell if the river was wide enough for them to turn the ship. If you need your characters to know which way the ships went I would be inclined to have rapids/shallows upstream that are not passable.
 

jclarkdawe

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Are they looking for friends or enemies?

Friends are very simple. There were a variety of codes ranging from an arrow drawn in the sand at the landing point to more complex signals that would not be obvious to enemies, such as how many rocks are placed in a small pile.

Enemies are a bit more complicated. But if they've traveled a bit upriver, they'll know whether the other boat has passed them going downstream. More subtle is the ability to out guess what your enemy is going to do. Tracking involves both physical signs and figuring out what someone likely did in the situation. Ships have limitations as to where they'll go. And there are limitations as to how much food and water they can carry, which limits their range.

Marks on the shore would be relatively meaningless. You tend to push off from shore in a straight line and then set course. With my beach catamaran (which is usually launched from shore), from my usual launch point, what tracks I make would indicate that I had turned the boat to put the bow away from shore, pushed into deeper water at a slight angle and on a starboard tack. I always start on a starboard tack because it gives me a bit more room to work with while getting everything set up. Finally, usually in about ten feet of water, I set a more final course. Absolutely no tracks at that point to indicate my final course.

But someone who is experienced with beach catamarans would be able to predict how I leave shore. There are certain things that make this logical.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Chris P

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Thanks so much for answering guys. Really appreciate you taking the time and trying to help.

However, to reiterate my question: Is there a way to determine whether they took their ships on upriver or turned back the way they came? Such as, If I drive into my driveway and leave tire tracks, you would be able to tell which direction I came from. If I backed out again and left tracks, you would be able to tell which direction I went. I was wanting to know if a ship/boat/whatever you want to call it, would/could leave marks on the bank that would leave similar evidence.

I seriously doubt it. Any wake left by a boat is going to dissipate at best within a few minutes, and even sooner (in a matter of seconds) in a river with any current. Any marks on the shore as a result of the wake (washed up twigs, leaves, sand, etc.) are not going to be distinguishable from those of wind, falling river level, etc. River banks are chaotic jumbles of debris; there's no way to know. Even speedboats don't leave characteristic wake marks on the shore, a wind or oar-powered boat is surely not going to.

Your best bet is going to be a survivor eyewitness who can say "they went thataway."

ETA: If you had to have uncertainty regarding which direction they went, as a reader I could be convinced that if the river was tidal (near the ocean) that the Saxons could not have gone downriver at that time of day because of rising tide. Or, if the English characters knew the Saxon boats were exclusively sail powered (no oars and a slack river current) and the wind was from downriver, then they could only have gone upriver. Not a perfect solution for me as a reader, but plausible enough it wouldn't pull me out. (Unlike one book where the characters rappelled by rope down a cliff with their horses​).
 
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Al X.

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Here is one potential way to track the direction of travel. Back in the days before center mounted rudders were used, boats were steered with a paddle called a 'larboard.' This was normally mounted on the right, since the preferred side to use for docking was on the left (hence the term 'port' side.) The term larboard eventually became 'starboard' and it is the term we use to this day for the right side of the boat.

Let's say the boat was travelling in a shallow mud bank, and both the keel and steering board left visible drag marks. You might be able to see them at low tide, and you would be able to differentiate which drag mark was which - the steering board would be all squiggly.

Another note - useful mnemonic: There is some Red Port wine Left.
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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The ships used in the 400s in Britain would not have had masts and sails. They'd have been like the Sutton Hoo ship--the hull would have been very like a Viking longship, (lap strake construction with a starboard and keel, but no mast footing) with thole pins instead of oar holes.

Ways you could tell which way they went:
- The river is narrower than the ship is long so it can't turn around. This would make it more likely they went upstream. (But in that case, they probably wouldn't have gone so far up the river they couldn't turn around.)
- The locals know there are rapids up stream so even if the raiders went that way, they'd have to come back or port the ship around the rapids (or they can't port the ship because the river peters out).
- The river gets very shallow upstream (less than three feet deep) so they'd have to go downstream or turn around.
- It's quiet out and they haven't been gone that long. In which case, someone might be able to hear oars splashing up or down stream.
- It's quiet out and the person KNOWS the ship has just left and can't hear oars, which would make it more likely they were drifting down river with the current.
- The river is very straight, it hasn't been long since they left, in which case the person can just see them.]
- Climb a hill or a suitable tree and have a look up and down stream.
- Walk, run, or ride a horse up or down stream looking for them.
- The raiders are raiding again and the person can see smoke up (or down I suppose) stream.
- It's been a while and a survivor of another raid appears to tell you which way they went. Or someone who saw them go by.
- The person knows the raiders loaded their ship so full of loot that it's more likely they went downstream to go home rather than upstream to overload the ship with more loot they can't carry.

[Al X.--the old Norse word for steering board was "starboard" (hence starboard side of the ship) and the loading side of the ship was called the larboard side. Later larboard was changed to port. And yes, the starboard was--in all cases we know of--on the right side of the ship (Vikings TV show be damned.)]
 

Al X.

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The ships used in the 400s in Britain would not have had masts and sails. They'd have been like the Sutton Hoo ship--the hull would have been very like a Viking longship, (lap strake construction with a starboard and keel, but no mast footing) with thole pins instead of oar holes.

Ways you could tell which way they went:
- The river is narrower than the ship is long so it can't turn around. This would make it more likely they went upstream. (But in that case, they probably wouldn't have gone so far up the river they couldn't turn around.)
- The locals know there are rapids up stream so even if the raiders went that way, they'd have to come back or port the ship around the rapids (or they can't port the ship because the river peters out).
- The river gets very shallow upstream (less than three feet deep) so they'd have to go downstream or turn around.
- It's quiet out and they haven't been gone that long. In which case, someone might be able to hear oars splashing up or down stream.
- It's quiet out and the person KNOWS the ship has just left and can't hear oars, which would make it more likely they were drifting down river with the current.
- The river is very straight, it hasn't been long since they left, in which case the person can just see them.]
- Climb a hill or a suitable tree and have a look up and down stream.
- Walk, run, or ride a horse up or down stream looking for them.
- The raiders are raiding again and the person can see smoke up (or down I suppose) stream.
- It's been a while and a survivor of another raid appears to tell you which way they went. Or someone who saw them go by.
- The person knows the raiders loaded their ship so full of loot that it's more likely they went downstream to go home rather than upstream to overload the ship with more loot they can't carry.

[Al X.--the old Norse word for steering board was "starboard" (hence starboard side of the ship) and the loading side of the ship was called the larboard side. Later larboard was changed to port. And yes, the starboard was--in all cases we know of--on the right side of the ship (Vikings TV show be damned.)]

Yeah you're right.
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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I thought of another scenario.
- The raiders took slaves, who are still yelling and crying and making a lot of noise.
 

WriteMinded

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I thought when I posted my question that I was making it easy for you by being short and to the point. Now I realize it might have been easier if I'd explained the situation.The guys after the Saxons are definitely not friends. They are on horseback, and they are out for blood. I'm sticking with there is no way to tell which direction they took when they left the scene of the massacre. I just didn't want to get it wrong. But I'm keeping the information Al X provided for future reference. At any rate, my question has been answered, and I'm very appreciative of your help.

Oh yeah, and they did take slaves Ultragotha. How'd you know?
 

jclarkdawe

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If I was the Saxons, and I wanted to lose a bunch of horsemen, I'd head out to sea about five miles (enough so no one on land could see me). Then it's a fifty/fifty chance whether they guess the right direction that the ship chooses to travel. But as each day goes by (and a longboat could stay at sea for at least a week), the area in which the horsemen have to guess correctly where the Saxons would land becomes larger and larger. Within a couple of days it becomes next to impossible. This ability to "hide" at sea was part of the reason for the success of the Vikings. Along the coastline, the Vikings would suddenly appear to conduct their raids. Jim Clark-Dawe
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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Oh yeah, and they did take slaves Ultragotha. How'd you know?

Well, taking slaves is a thing raiders of the time did. Vikings did it hundreds of years later, too.

As to Al X's thing with the steering board marks, bear in mind that a steering board juts down about two feet below the keel. When the ship is drawn into very shallow water, the crew will remove the tiller and unship the steering board (untie and remove the round top part from it's seat) and pivot it around the wart to bring the blade of the steering board above the bottom of the keel. THEN they'll beach the ship. Otherwise you can snap the steering board blade in half (don't ask me how I know). There are a bunch of good photos if you scroll down on this page. (Bear in mind that whole page is on Viking ships. Remove the yard, sail, mast and mast fittings to get an idea of Saxon ships. Also these ships have oar ports. Saxon ships most probably used thole pins. Also also, I notice that page calls the gunwhale a gunwhale (gunn'l) but I try to avoid that in period books since it's a 15th century term. Sheer strake (topmost strake of the ship) might work a substitute.)
 
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