Sequel Expectations - What You Want To Write VS What Your Readers Expect

Fiender

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I couldn't finish the last three books I attempted to read. Tons of factors decide whether someone likes a book or not (recent events raising the bar for how good the writing has to be to pull me out of the real world notwithstanding), but all three of those books were sequels to others I had finished. My trouble with each sequel, ultimately, was how little those books delivered on my hopes from the first books.

This has kinda shaken me into awareness of reader expectations for sequels, and how my own plans for sequels might rub readers the wrong way. Now, I know no sequel (or book, really) is going to grab every reader. Some will put a sequel down because it's too different, some will put it down if it's too similar. But I think there might be pitfalls to avoid so hypothetical fans of a book aren't severely put off by that book's followups.

The sequels for the book I'm currently querying were going to involve significant time jumps between books, and each book would have a new-to-the-series main character (with the odd previously-existing character returning in a supportive non-POV role). Each book would introduce a problem and a development arc for that character, which they would definitively 'resolve' for better or ill by the end of that book. Each book would have a subplot that continues into the next installment, escalating each time, until it came to fruition in the finale. My intent was to start each sequel with some inciting incident that would engage new readers, while immediately re-grounding existing readers in the world (oh, this faction is up to their old tricks again, shakes fist). Cool, great, nothing wrong with that, right?

Well, assuming future books were written as well as the first, what if the main character of book 2 doesn't grab the same kind of reader as the MC of book 1? Even if readers would've liked the book 2 character had they picked up a different book, what if they really really wanted more of book 1 character and are instantly, irrevocably put off that that's not what they're getting? I feel like I could say each book is a 'stand-alone' story, but they would forever be listed on Goodreads/Amazon as BOOK 1, BOOK 2, etc, which sets expectations. I wanted to write the series in this manner because I feel giving a small cast of people the burden of solving every crisis that arises each book is a bit silly, considering how different the crises are, and considering the story I want to tell. And it's all the more fun when an old character does show up, especially in a major way.

Now, I haven't gotten an agent to even read my book 1, let alone get it into storefronts, but it never hurts to discuss these things. In what ways have book sequels dissapointed you? What sequels were dramatically different from your expectations, yet still grabbed you?
 

Thornbird

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I'm writing a sequel and very aware of these problems. I decided to make the sequel as exciting and 'read more' as possible. I need to take the reader to whole new level, using the five senses. To laugh and cry, to have fear and desire. My imagination will be tested to the limit, but I feel this is what I have to do and not go backwards on old territory. I have brought the family of a wartime character to the the year 2017 (1935-1948 in the first one) and the book has new characters where only one of them is from the first book. I think it's important not to go back in time, but to take the concept from the first book and move the characters forward into another era. I am putting myself in the mind of someone who read the first novel. They want to know what happened afterwards and I think what they don't want is too many reminders of the main characters in the first book. This is a new book and a different era. I mention circumstances in the sequel which will help to move it forward, but other than that, it's got to feel exciting and moreish. Good luck with yours.
 

lizmonster

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Here's the thing about a series: Book 1 is always going to sell the best. This is in part because readers tend to want to start at the beginning, and in part because it will always be the one that's been available the longest.

As for putting off readers? I'm not sure what the alternative is. You don't know why readers are going to like Book 1. You don't know why they might dislike Book 2. Having different characters might bother some. Having a different theme might bother others. You can't know why your readers are going to pick up Book 2; your job as a writer is to make it the best book it can be, and that's it.

I've dropped two series lately, one because the first had a cliffhanger ending and I just didn't care that much, another because the quality of the writing wasn't there, and eventually the plot wasn't interesting enough for me to get past that. A trilogy I read recently let me down plot-wise after a strong Book 1. I'd read a stand-alone by that author, but I no longer trust them for sequels.

I wrote the sequel I wanted to write. It got better industry reviews than the first, and vanished because it was released on Election Day 2016. You can't know what's going to happen once the thing is out.

Write what you want to write. If you fight your own heart on what you think the story should be, it's going to show in the finished product. Hook your readers with something good, and the change of venue will be forgiven.
 

Woollybear

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Hey Fiender-- For whatever it's worth my conception about sequels is the same as yours. It's fantastic to get into another character's head for a while, and makes the world more developed overall. IMO that's relevant ultimately to broader issues of diversity and empathy and compassion in our own world. I also love standalones, within an existing world. Sort of the Marvel Universe... sometimes the characters overlap and sometimes they don't. But all under the same world rules.

Series I stopped reading? Hmmm. I'm more likely going to stop reading a book within the first three chapters (which happens *all the time*) than a series. I suppose the last series I read was some time ago now... the second trilogy of the Mistborn universe. I had no trouble getting through the first trilogy, and I loved the idea of the second trilogy, which was set hundreds of years later with the question/explore of how the world would evolve and change between the two times (trilogies). I had thought at one point that Sanderson planned a third trilogy for the world which I've not seen appear, although maybe I misunderstood. (I wonder if he rethought that strategy. But I might have been wrong.) Anyway, the second trilogy was harder because the rules of the world were mixed and matched from the first trilogy. e.g. instead of discrete groups of 'powers' (allomancy, ferruchemistry, etc) people could have a little bit of each, and it just made for a mess (in my mind). Also the tone was more 'Crime Western' and less 'Fantasy setting' ... also I had trouble caring about the characters and I am not sure why (Maybe not enough weaving of their back-lives or something) and small parts felt slap-dash (but maybe that was me being tired...), but I did make my way through the second series in the end.

Or perhaps Mistborn is better (easier to read) in comparison because he worked on it for so gol-dang long. Again, I'm not certain I have the details correct but I *think* it was a mashup of several previous trunked novels that he re-worked into a single world. It is rich with depth, and perhaps that is because he drew from his own set of existing trunked novels to create it. Talk about work. Wow.
 

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I write a lot of series and while every individual book has its own complete story, they are all part of a larger complete whole. I don't typically read and absolutely do not write series that are just more adventures with the same characters, every book has to be leading somewhere and I want to see where it's going. As lizmonster said, first books always sell best because a lot of people are checking it out to see if it fits their desires and if it doesn't, they may look elsewhere. That's fine. But once you get them over that hurdle, they tend to stick around to the end, assuming you don't do something wrong along the way. You just have to get them invested in the characters and the over-arching plot and they'll read as many books as you write, so long as they think it's going somewhere.
 
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Kerry56

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I've written two series, though there are only two books in the second series and likely to stay that way.

In my books, I write what speaks to me, and I can only hope it appeals to others. My trilogy is set on the same world, with different leads in each, but the story lines eventually merge with the lives of the two main characters of the first book. Those two MC's often have major roles in the latter books.

The ending of the first book of the trilogy is deliberately made so that it could be read as a stand alone novel. I dislike series that have cliffhanger endings. The books are episodic, and there is only one jump back in time, to show a major event in the life of one character.

In the second series, the two books are so closely related, they could be merged into one big novel, but again, the ending of the first part is satisfying in itself. I'm not going to write something that doesn't conclude well.

The second book takes the characters to new settings and challenges not seen in the first, so it isn't boring repetition.
 

indianroads

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I think this kinda falls into the 'HFN' or 'HEA' category.

Books within the series should (IMO) end with a Happy For Now - or at least have a resolution to the conflict that novel addresses. The final book in the series should (again IMO) end with a Happy Ever After - where that book's problem and the overall series are all tied together satisfactorily.
 

Ari Meermans

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I think this kinda falls into the 'HFN' or 'HEA' category.

Books within the series should (IMO) end with a Happy For Now - or at least have a resolution to the conflict that novel addresses. The final book in the series should (again IMO) end with a Happy Ever After - where that book's problem and the overall series are all tied together satisfactorily.

As a reader of series—and I do tend to favor series—this is the approach I expect. I will happily read a new series in the same world provided that the MC in the new series was introduced as a well-loved supporting character with hints of their own story in the original series with the MC(s) from the first series making at least token appearances for the sake of continuity. I think, though, you have to account for different reader tastes, much as Liz mentioned.
 

DeleyanLee

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Here's what I've noticed about series as a reader:

Writers put tons of wonderful stuff in the first book to attract attention. Most every page holds something "gosh wow" that would keep me reading (for all the present controversy, Rowling is a master of this). However, what happens when it comes to the sequel is there's very little--if anything--new to make the reader "gosh wow" because the author blew their wad in book one. Whatever what charming and wonderful isn't carried over and/or isn't updated or given a new facet, so it's boring. Even in the "same, but different" genres--there still has to be enough different to be enjoyable.

Now, you can make that "same but different" fun (how many different ways can Stephanie Plum destroy someone else's car?), which will do that work and become part of the series brand, but the work has to be done and, frankly, I don't always find the writers do that and that spoils series for me.
 

Woollybear

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Part of that might be because (1) the advice (at least what I've heard 'round town) is to put everything you've got into the first book ... and (2) the issue of a deadline starts to play more of a role in subsequent books.

It's surprising how many authors say that putting out a book every two months (and certainly every year) is important to financial success.

(As a reader, Deleyan, I agree with what you are saying. It feels like that was what happened with the Mistborn trilogies.)
 
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lizmonster

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Part of that might be because (1) the advice (at least what I've heard 'round town) is to put everything you've got into the first book ... and (2) the issue of a deadline starts to play more of a role in subsequent books.

See, I put everything I've got into every book, but YMMV. It's certainly true in trade publishing deadlines start to play a role - but missing a deadline generally means either tighter future deadlines or a slipped pub date, not a canceled contract (unless you miss it very, very badly).

It's surprising how many authors say that putting out a book every two months (and certainly every year) is important to financial success.

The financial models in trade and self publishing are very different. The "every two months" rule, AFAIK, applies to self-publishing, and in specific genres. Financial success in trade publishing is tied more to advances and royalties, and is dependent on building a back catalog over some years (I've heard numerous writers say it takes 10 years of steady sales before they see a predictable income).
 

Woollybear

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See, I put everything I've got into every book, but YMMV.

No, I do too.

(what I said earlier in the thread):

Or perhaps Mistborn is better (easier to read) in comparison because he (Sanderson) worked on it for so gol-dang long. Again, I'm not certain I have the details correct but I *think* it was a mashup of several previous trunked novels that he re-worked into a single world.

^That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I can't find it now, but I think I saw him say on a reddit years ago that Mistborn was basically three-four of his trunked novels into a single story.

=Don't keep any of your cool stuff out of the story. Put all of the cool stuff in.

Sorry I was not more clear.

ETA: I've been poking around trying to find what my brain believes it has seen about Sanderson's path to publication on his early novels. No success. Reddit looks different now too, so ?

The closest I can find is him saying that chunks of Dragonsteel will go (have gone) into the revision of Way of Kings. Same idea, but not what I remember precisely.

Anyway, back to your RSP.
 
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indianroads

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The financial models in trade and self publishing are very different. The "every two months" rule, AFAIK, applies to self-publishing, and in specific genres. Financial success in trade publishing is tied more to advances and royalties, and is dependent on building a back catalog over some years (I've heard numerous writers say it takes 10 years of steady sales before they see a predictable income).

Wow... every 2 months? I write for 5 to 8 hours every day - unless I'm off on a cross country ride on my bike... but even then I schedule those so I can edit at night in my hotel room - and it usually takes me 6 to 8 months to get my book ready for self publishing. Tucked into that timeline are working with my cover designer and editor. I'd be really impressed if someone can produce a quality 100K word novel in 2 months.
 

lizmonster

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Wow... every 2 months? I write for 5 to 8 hours every day - unless I'm off on a cross country ride on my bike... but even then I schedule those so I can edit at night in my hotel room - and it usually takes me 6 to 8 months to get my book ready for self publishing. Tucked into that timeline are working with my cover designer and editor. I'd be really impressed if someone can produce a quality 100K word novel in 2 months.

It's not a model I'm following, but the people I see doing it are producing novellas (10-40K, in the cases I've seen), often themed or in a series. There may be folks writing full-length novels that quickly, but as a general rule, I don't think that's what works best here. Some of those producing multiple short works a year are able to make a living wage out of it - not millions, for the most part, but a decent living.

It takes a tremendous amount of sustained energy, and is not a model I'm personally suited to. I have deep respect for those who accomplish it.
 

indianroads

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It's not a model I'm following, but the people I see doing it are producing novellas (10-40K, in the cases I've seen), often themed or in a series. There may be folks writing full-length novels that quickly, but as a general rule, I don't think that's what works best here. Some of those producing multiple short works a year are able to make a living wage out of it - not millions, for the most part, but a decent living.

It takes a tremendous amount of sustained energy, and is not a model I'm personally suited to. I have deep respect for those who accomplish it.

Glad that I'm not alone.

I love writing and the entire process of creating and self publishing a novel. Over the last 4 years I've published six novels, all of which were around the 100K word count. I'm currently working on the 1st draft of the last novel in a series, and it will be ready to go by the end of this year.

I'm frigging exhausted, and am planning on taking at least a short break once the last one is out.

The problem is that the characters for another story have already shown up inside my head.

ETA:
Wait - when did it become May??
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it's June already.
 
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Cephus

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Glad that I'm not alone.

I love writing and the entire process of creating and self publishing a novel. Over the last 4 years I've published six novels, all of which were around the 100K word count. I'm currently working on the 1st draft of the last novel in a series, and it will be ready to go by the end of this year.

I'm frigging exhausted, and am planning on taking at least a short break once the last one is out.

The problem is that the characters for another story have already shown up inside my head.

Hate to say it but I wrote about 700k words last year, 6 full-length novels, all but 2 of them over 100k (and those were 87k and 96k respectively). If it hadn't been for the stupid Covid-19 thing, I'd be on track to do the same thing this year. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you're used to doing. I put out 5k+ words a day, 5 days a week and it doesn't tire me out a bit. Once writing is a habit, you can do almost anything with it you want. It's why I turned down a Big 5 publishing contract, because I have always written fast and traditional publishers only put out one book a year at most, leaving me with a pile that either won't be published or I'll have to go the self-pub route with anyhow, so I just cut out the middle man. There isn't any right way to do this, but there are a lot of wrong ways. So long as it works for you, who cares?
 

lizmonster

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Hate to say it but I wrote about 700k words last year, 6 full-length novels, all but 2 of them over 100k (and those were 87k and 96k respectively).

Don't hate to say that. I write about 500K, give or take. I just do a lot of revision, which includes throwing a lot of words away. It takes me (on average) 18-24 months to produce a polished, submittable book. (I'm slower than average, from what I've seen.)

I have always written fast and traditional publishers only put out one book a year at most, leaving me with a pile that either won't be published or I'll have to go the self-pub route with anyhow, so I just cut out the middle man. There isn't any right way to do this, but there are a lot of wrong ways. So long as it works for you, who cares?

I had two books come out in a year, so that's not a universal truth for trade publishing. What is true is that the work they do in presales and marketing takes time, so they probably can't realistically schedule more than 2 (maybe 3, depending) a year and still give proper attention to their other titles.
 

Cephus

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Don't hate to say that. I write about 500K, give or take. I just do a lot of revision, which includes throwing a lot of words away. It takes me (on average) 18-24 months to produce a polished, submittable book. (I'm slower than average, from what I've seen.)

There's nothing wrong with that. Whatever works for you works for you. The issue, unfortunately, is that people who are successful or who produce more than the "norm" often get attacked on writing forums. The whole idea of jealousy is absurd though. This isn't a competition. The only one anyone is competing with is themselves.

I had two books come out in a year, so that's not a universal truth for trade publishing. What is true is that the work they do in presales and marketing takes time, so they probably can't realistically schedule more than 2 (maybe 3, depending) a year and still give proper attention to their other titles.

That is not the norm, especially for large publishers. The exception doesn't disprove the rule. The overwhelming majority of writers out there will not get more than one book published in a year through any mainstream publishing house.
 

lizmonster

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There's nothing wrong with that. Whatever works for you works for you. The issue, unfortunately, is that people who are successful or who produce more than the "norm" often get attacked on writing forums. The whole idea of jealousy is absurd though. This isn't a competition. The only one anyone is competing with is themselves.

FWIW I don't see that sort of jealousy expressed here, except occasionally as a good-natured gibe.

That is not the norm, especially for large publishers. The exception doesn't disprove the rule. The overwhelming majority of writers out there will not get more than one book published in a year through any mainstream publishing house.

*shrug* It wasn't just me, and it wasn't just my publisher. One a year might be the norm (although for some genres, such as romance, I certainly see more than that coming from the Big 5), but two is hardly unusual. (7, though, would indeed be surprising. :))
 

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Well, assuming future books were written as well as the first, what if the main character of book 2 doesn't grab the same kind of reader as the MC of book 1? Even if readers would've liked the book 2 character had they picked up a different book, what if they really really wanted more of book 1 character and are instantly, irrevocably put off that that's not what they're getting? I feel like I could say each book is a 'stand-alone' story, but they would forever be listed on Goodreads/Amazon as BOOK 1, BOOK 2, etc, which sets expectations. I wanted to write the series in this manner because I feel giving a small cast of people the burden of solving every crisis that arises each book is a bit silly, considering how different the crises are, and considering the story I want to tell. And it's all the more fun when an old character does show up, especially in a major way.

Now, I haven't gotten an agent to even read my book 1, let alone get it into storefronts, but it never hurts to discuss these things. In what ways have book sequels dissapointed you? What sequels were dramatically different from your expectations, yet still grabbed you?

Hey again Fiender. So I was chatting with some buddies last night about novel endings and one writer said that a novel should resolve, but at the end should open a new door. The reader may or may not want to go through that door (into the next novel).

In this particular writer's very funny novel, Mozart travels to the present day and a disbelieving music agent (our viewpoint) has to bring him up to speed to the twenty-first century, because clearly the guy-who-thinks-he-is-mozart has talent and they both stand to make a bundle. The novel ends with Mozart succeeding in the twenty-first century and traveling ahead, out of the story, another few hundred years. And then the poor agent gets a phone call from a stranger who we immediately understand is Tchaikovsky.

First problem resolved, new door opens.

If we show readers the door to the next novel at the end of the first novel, we will be OK. They will know what to expect. If the door clearly has a different character standing in it (Tchaikovsky instead of Mozart), they won't be angry that Mozart is gone. I think this advice would lead to a natural sequencing (sequels) that could be standalone if the correct threads are tied up in each story.

--FWIW I'm working with a new group on my sequel, which has some overlap with Aerovoyant but is ten years later and stars a different primary protagonist (the first book characters are still there in varying degrees). One ongoing question I pose to this writer group is whether they are lost for not having read the first novel. Basically I am wondering if it can stand alone, which is different than being a sequel, I suppose, but it's the line between the two that I keep returning to in my thoughts. By and large they follow, but are occasionally lost, and that is helpful to know--not sure how to fix it yet, or if I will accept that this is not a stand-alone work, but I'm keeping notes.
 
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indianroads

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In this particular writer's very funny novel, Mozart travels to the present day and a disbelieving music agent (our viewpoint) has to bring him up to speed to the twenty-first century, because clearly the guy-who-thinks-he-is-mozart has talent and they both stand to make a bundle.
(Sorry, I can't resist)
I heard that Mozart changed his name to Vince Neil and sang with Motley Crue before he disappeared.

Years ago I read of a well known author (forget who) that said something along the line of: the best books are those with characters so engaging that you wonder what they did the day after the story ended.
 

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Years ago I read of a well known author (forget who) that said something along the line of: the best books are those with characters so engaging that you wonder what they did the day after the story ended.

And some sequels should never be written, even for the sake of curiosity. I read once that Tolkien tried to write about Gondor, years after the time of the trilogy and everything was dark and depressing, showing some of the worst traits of men, so he abandoned the idea. I think he tore it up, because that piece doesn't show up in any collection I've seen from his son.

But wanting more from your favorite characters, I understand that, and have often written short continuations in my mind after finishing a novel.

Have you ever finished a story, then wanted to rewrite the ending? I've done that too, especially with movies or TV shows. I like my take on the ending of Game of Thrones, but I doubt it comes close to the real one when Martin actually finishes the books in 2055.
 
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The Black Prince

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Interesting topic. I've never published a sequel although I've tried to write a couple and am finally getting to the end of one. The series might even turn into a trilogy (although book 1 doesn't come out until next year). My books tend to have pretty complex plots. I still work full time so every book takes a long time, and none have quite reached the critical mass to take me to the next level (audience wise). Therefore, it's always seemed to me to be a better use of my time trying to create a (totally different) new book 1 that might finally take off. I have a new book 1 coming out shortly. And yes, I've started mapping a sequel...just in case.
 
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MythMonger

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--FWIW I'm working with a new group on my sequel, which has some overlap with Aerovoyant but is ten years later and stars a different primary protagonist (the first book characters are still there in varying degrees). One ongoing question I pose to this writer group is whether they are lost for not having read the first novel. Basically I am wondering if it can stand alone, which is different than being a sequel, I suppose, but it's the line between the two that I keep returning to in my thoughts. By and large they follow, but are occasionally lost, and that is helpful to know--not sure how to fix it yet, or if I will accept that this is not a stand-alone work, but I'm keeping notes.

I've written three manuscripts in a row where there was a different protagonist, the gap was ten years and they were all in the same world with overlapping characters.

What helped me was making the current manuscript I was working on the first book in the series, each time. All the world building necessary for that protagonist in that time frame was there. Only references to other manuscripts were included if they were needed for context.

Please PM me if you want to discuss it more. It's something I've given quite a bit of thought to over the years.
 

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Wow... every 2 months? I write for 5 to 8 hours every day - unless I'm off on a cross country ride on my bike... but even then I schedule those so I can edit at night in my hotel room - and it usually takes me 6 to 8 months to get my book ready for self publishing. Tucked into that timeline are working with my cover designer and editor. I'd be really impressed if someone can produce a quality 100K word novel in 2 months.

I always assumed, when the books come out at a very quick rate (a new one every 2 - 3 months), that they've completed writing the whole series before they start putting them out. But maybe not? I agree that 100K every 2 months seems unlikely.