Appropriating Other People's History?

gothicangel · Jun 6, 2020

Okay, this has been on my mind for a while.

My WIP is more of a psychological thriller than historical, but the story revolves around The Troubles in Northern Ireland between 1975 and 1990. Now, I've read a few articles in the recent past about writers accusing others about appropriating other people's culture (i.e. white people writing a black MC etc.) For a while now, I have a niggling thought in my mind that (if I'm published) some people may think 'you're English, what gives you the right to write about Northern Ireland?'

Now, my thoughts are as long as you do it well (and I do think that I break through the stereotypes - no, the IRA aren't the bad guys this time). I'm doing the work with the history (and getting some great plot twists in the process). I already visited County Kerry (in the Republic) and hopefully next year I will be going to Dublin and planning to visit Belfast and Derry soon after.

Anyone had a similar experience?

Chris P · Jun 7, 2020

I've had a similar question. To take such a thought to an extreme, I would only be able to write about white 50 year old men who grew up in the American Midwestern suburbs. There's some good stories to tell there, but I'd end up writing nothing but a memoir if all I could do was "write what you've experienced yourself." I've been tinkering with a novella I would love to finish, but it takes place in a culture where although I lived there for two years, I was still an outsider and I didn't often get to see "how they talked amongst themselves." I want the MCs to be from that culture, and not write just another book with an outsider MC learning about this culture--which is actually what I was.

I think the key to writing other cultures is "research, research, research." And (most importantly) empathy! The danger is that I don't always know if the sources I'm using are biased, so the broader the diversity in sources the better. I also don't know what unconscious biases I might have that will taint a character from being a real person into an avatar of what I expect someone in that culture would do, say and feel. We have to generalize characters to some degree or we couldn't write, but there is some truth in the "No True Scottsman" fallacy: the meaning words carry will vary from culture to culture and each culture will describe things in slightly different ways. Cultures don't vary so much in what they do, but in how they express what they do. The more you learn about that, the better story you will write.

CWatts · Jun 7, 2020

I've been struggling a lot with this myself. For now I have trunked the novel I wrote for my MFA thesis with a black woman MC (the other MC is a white man who fathered her children, both based on real people) in Reconstruction Virginia. It's not my story to tell, at least until I get far better at telling other stories. Maybe I never will, and that's okay.

I've got a plot bunny right now that's YA from a white girl's POV and I'm getting hung up because she's Irish Catholic and I am Southern WASP. But the key to this story is that the Confederacy was a hellhole for anyone who wasn't the plantation elite. So it's sort of Gangs of Richmond because the immigrant community was central to the events driving the story.

Then I've got another immigrant character I've needed to write for years but am only now doing the work to learn her language (and feeling like an idiot - empathy again, especially since there were no apps then...) and I still need to do a deep dive into political ideology for all the raging debates between Marx, Blanqui and Bakunin...(and figure out when she'd eyeroll along with me at all the men).

Class is a big question underlying so much of this. We middle class 21st century Americans are among the most privileged people who've ever lived, but with two major economic meltdowns in a dozen years we see how fragile that is. I'm leaning towards many of my characters having maybe a lower middle class background until that precarious prosperity collapses. Thoughts?

DeleyanLee · Jun 7, 2020

90% of my heroes are male. By that line of thinking, I shouldn't be writing them.

I'm an American, so theoretically I shouldn't be writing in any other historical time line, even if I have ancestry from it.

People are gonna kvetch about anything I write about. That's just the way people are. However, my opinion is not only the "research, research, research" is necessary, but Respecting the culture and time I'm writing about is essential. Being careful not to take Victorian attitudes (which are very prevalent in several of the eras I'm interested in) which are so skewed, and yet so pervasive.

But, then, I look at historical writers like Wilbur Smith, who writes in a very Victorian Egypt and gets acclaim for it and I figure if you really tell a great story that people like to read (I can't stand him, personally, I find him offensive as everything), that they're not going to say squat about it.

AW Admin · Jun 7, 2020

Use beta readers. Use beta readers who know the language/culture/era.

Research. Seek out primary sources, particularly sources from the era that are not necessarily academic—newspapers, magazines, folklore, cookbooks, poetry, drama, novels, "trash" reading, if it's a literate cultue.

CWatts · Jun 7, 2020

AW Admin said:
Use beta readers. Use beta readers who know the language/culture/era.

Research. Seek out primary sources, particularly sources from the era that are not necessarily academic—newspapers, magazines, folklore, cookbooks, poetry, drama, novels, "trash" reading, if it's a literate cultue.

Oh absolutely! Mid-late 19th century has such a treasure trove of material. When you have a city with multiple newspapers (all as partisan as the modern cable networks or more so!) it is especially fascinating to read multiple accounts of the same events that have almost nothing in common.

Pastelnudes · Jun 7, 2020

I sympathise, Gothicangel. So, do you live in England? Me too. It's really tricky : (

You can probably get away with it if the novel is a thriller, as you say, rather than if it were literary fiction.

Personally, I believe that if we're writing about a marginalised group, we should be very careful. Writers are - on the whole - enlightened, empathetic people, so it's up to us to lead the way. We've come a long way from those terrible films of the 50's, where the minority characters were played by white people in make-up.

My own background; I'm white, but grew up in a very rough area of a grim English city. Being poor wasn't in itself the issue. Unfortunately, our family home was also a violent and stressful place (fighting and loss of tempers exacerbated by poverty and debt). Any writing I do pretty much always has a character with that background, and I'm not sure I'd be delighted to read a novel set on that estate by an author with a more privileged background.

When I started writing fiction in my early twenties, I was super-aware that, although I had so little going for me in terms of connections, opportunities and self-confidence, I did at least have things to write about!

That was very important; a way of turning something awful into something good.

So, I can imagine how important it would be if you were from a properly marginalised community.

- - - Updated - - -

Woollybear · Jun 7, 2020

Seconding Chris P's mention of empathy. Along these lines, the idea of personal and ongoing cost and realism, to whichever character endures the challenge you're worried about appropriating.

Here's my closest experience. A decent percentage of fiction includes death of a child. (Almost every piece of novel-length fiction has death of one sort or another, often enough in the opening pages. Death is a staple in fiction, and death of a child is an angle used from time to time.) I've seen pieces that have been absolutely cathartic reads for me, which is a good thing, and pieces that make me want to throw the book across the room (a bad thing). The difference between them is whether the author is honoring the experience of losing a child, the bereavement, all the pain of it, such that non-fictional sufferers (=a slice of readership) feel seen and heard.

If you can hit a note (or several) of the authenticity of the struggle and pain of the Northern Irish history, the challenge and cost, for example from within a decently immersed character, you will look less like an English author appropriating something and more like an Englishman who understands that struggle on a personal level from 'the other side.' You will help people feel heard and seen.

That's my opinion--aim for empathy, going deep and authentic.

TrapperViper · Jun 7, 2020

I remember a post from early in 2019 by a UK author who was considering writing a story about minorities living in LA and the MC was a teacher (if I remember correctly). My memory is that she chose not to write it because of a lack of familiarity with the culture and the characters, having never lived in LA.

I'm writing a novel about war in Afghanistan and I consider myself a subject matter expert on the material...but when I posted my first excerpt McCardey sent me a PM that addressed a couple of sentences I wrote that discussed something that I thought was true about Muslim culture but was in fact completely false, and offensive.

So, I think that with what you are doing...if you are competent enough to write about it and you solicit feedback from others to identify inaccuracies and to find areas that might be unintentionally offensive, you'll do great.

I imagine that when your WIP is published you will have a long list of people to thank who helped you create the kind of story that is accurate and compelling and culturally aware.

I very much agree with this:

If you can hit a note (or several) of the authenticity of the struggle and pain of the Northern Irish history, the challenge and cost, for example from within a decently immersed character, you will look less like an English author appropriating something and more like an Englishman who understands that struggle on a personal level from 'the other side.' You will help people feel heard and seen.

That's my opinion--aim for empathy, going deep and authentic.

and this

Use beta readers. Use beta readers who know the language/culture/era.

Research. Seek out primary sources, particularly sources from the era that are not necessarily academic—newspapers, magazines, folklore, cookbooks, poetry, drama, novels, "trash" reading, if it's a literate cultue.

Kjbartolotta · Jun 7, 2020

RE: The Troubles, I know Stina Leicht, a German-American author living in Texas, has written an urban fantasy series set amidst the Troubles and [my understanding is that] she gets pretty good marks for her depiction. She's also discussed how she gathered information and went through as many memoirs and personal accounts as possible, I can't really weigh in on her depiction but she stresses diligence and primary sources.

PyriteFool · Jun 7, 2020

I agree, research, empathy and beta readers are important. But part of the issue I don't think we can ignore is the question of *who* ultimately gets to tell the stories of marginalized people? Who gets the recognition, prestige, and money from these stories? Marginalized people (by definition) have historically been locked out of telling their own stories, so no matter how empathetic, accurate, and sensitive the author is, if you aren't part of the group whose story you're telling, I think there is an element of appropriation. Sadly, the reality of publishing mean there are a limited number of slots and a real risk one book could push out another. Obviously that doesn't mean people have to "stay in their lane" at all times! And it's no individual person's fault that the deck is stacked against certain groups. It's systemic, but I do think we each bear an individual responsibility to challenge the status quo. Sometimes that does mean stepping aside and giving someone else the mic.

It's a hard question, and I think it's up to each of us to weigh on a case by case basis. At the end of the day, there are cases where sensitivity readers and research won't cut it. That isn't necessarily the case for the OP, but it should be mentioned, imho. Food for thought.

angeliz2k · Jun 8, 2020

This is such a hard issue to approach. For very good reasons, there is a lot of unrest at the moment in regards to race and race relations. I support that, but the reality is that I'm afraid it might hurt my chances of getting my antebellum (and bellum) novels published, or noticed at all. I'm a white woman, and I think there will be people who believe I shouldn't write about slavery (though it would be much worse to not write about slavery while writing about the antebellum/war period). And I think agents will think the same and won't want to approach my mss with a ten-foot pole because one-of-four or one-of-three of my main characters (depending on the book) are black and enslaved or formerly enslaved. This is the era that fascinates me; I can't avoid the subject of slavery; so should I just stop writing about the era that fascinates me? I feel in a bit of a bind there. To be clear, this isn't all to do with the recent protests--which I support; the question of race in America is a very old and enduring one. This unrest didn't happen overnight. It's not something that I am resentful about, either. It's just a reality I have to navigate. Hey, it's difficult stuff--it requires navigating and deep thought and care.

One thing I will say in relation to getting right a culture that isn't your own is to read primary sources but to understand what people are saying/thinking about it now, as well. I've made a point of consuming as much current scholarship on the antebellum, Civil War, and Reconstruction eras as possible.

CWatts · Jun 8, 2020

angeliz2k said:
This is such a hard issue to approach. For very good reasons, there is a lot of unrest at the moment in regards to race and race relations. I support that, but the reality is that I'm afraid it might hurt my chances of getting my antebellum (and bellum) novels published, or noticed at all. I'm a white woman, and I think there will be people who believe I shouldn't write about slavery (though it would be much worse to not write about slavery while writing about the antebellum/war period). And I think agents will think the same and won't want to approach my mss with a ten-foot pole because one-of-four or one-of-three of my main characters (depending on the book) are black and enslaved or formerly enslaved. This is the era that fascinates me; I can't avoid the subject of slavery; so should I just stop writing about the era that fascinates me? I feel in a bit of a bind there. To be clear, this isn't all to do with the recent protests--which I support; the question of race in America is a very old and enduring one. This unrest didn't happen overnight. It's not something that I am resentful about, either. It's just a reality I have to navigate. Hey, it's difficult stuff--it requires navigating and deep thought and care.

One thing I will say in relation to getting right a culture that isn't your own is to read primary sources but to understand what people are saying/thinking about it now, as well. I've made a point of consuming as much current scholarship on the antebellum, Civil War, and Reconstruction eras as possible.

Seconding all of the above. This is what I struggle with.

I wonder if it helps if it's Reconstruction? Right now my research focuses more on the 1870s which is absolutely fascinating as such a time of change, with so many echoes of issues we still grapple with today. Even before we take Own Voices into consideration, slavery and the Civil War may be overwritten. Historically accurate Reconstruction work seems thin on the ground in comparison, plus so much written about the Wild West and the Gilded Age North doesn't reflect the diversity that actually existed (1 in 4 cowboys were black, for example).

I also wonder if I should shift perspective? There might be a middle grade (?) book involving the real life couple from my trunked novel. Their son married a white widow in 1910 and was a good stepfather to her two daughters (age 12 and 10) but the State of Virginia took them away to an orphanage because of his race - until the girls' mother won a court case to regain custody while also keeping her marriage. (I'd definitely have to research with people who'd been in the foster care system, etc. for this...again, empathy.)

mccardey · Jun 8, 2020

I just want to throw in here that this not a recent development. Back at the end of the 1980s, I found an incredible story about a young Catholic priest in the 1950s who was sent to support an Aboriginal man sentenced to hang for the rape and murder of an eight year old girl. He had admitted the murder, and his statement had been taken down verbatim by the police, and it was only when this priest tried to hear his confession that he realised the man didn't speak English. He requested the interpreter to come and help and was told that there had been no interpreter when the confession was taken. That threw him, and he kept asking questions until it became very clear that this conviction was utterly baseless - everything about it, including the description of where the murder had occurred - was entirely wrong. I found the priest (who was still living) and ended up with a three-part mini-series funded and ready to start production through the ABC when their just-created Aboriginal Unit stymied it by saying No. No that's our story. It will only be told once, and it's ours to tell.

God it hurt at the time - it looked like being the start of a very good career for a 20-something bright-eyed little screen-writer - but I will never regret that I surrendered it with good grace. It was their story - even though it had been lost for 30+ years, and even though I had been telling it from the white Priest's POV.

Just saying there are worse things than losing a good story.

Chris P · Jun 9, 2020

In following this thread and reflecting on the posts, it seems there are three risks (and probably more, feel free to add to the list) of writing about another's culture:

1. Getting basic cultural facts wrong, resulting in inaccurate characters.
2. Making generalizations that are offensive.
3. Falling into a savior mentality.

The first is the grain of truth in the "No True Scotsman" idea. Different cultures have different perspectives on events, words, and customs and our fictional characters should be expected to comply in some degree. It could be as simple as innocuous hand gestures (the "bye-bye" opening and closing of the hand we do particularly to infants and toddlers in the US means "come here" in Uganda, and the one-finger beckoning is a sexual thing) to more problematic things where everyone, regardless of skin color, sex, gender, culture, and socioeconomic status, shares the world view of the author. This is mostly a lack of awareness, or unconscious bias the author is not aware is inaccurate.

Most people are pretty well aware of the offensive ones, particularly in the use of dialect or other racial/cultural stereotypes. Most authors avoid this pretty well nowadays (at least the worst examples are weeded out or revised before being published), but not always.

The third is one I see a lot. The writer, out of an honest desire to "tell these people's story" or a sense of social justice, endeavors to defend a particular group. There is nothing inherently wrong in doing so. But it ignores the possibility that someone in that particular group might be completely capable of telling the story, and can assume that the group needs a white male (for example) to speak for them. That doesn't mean it can't be done; I'm thinking of Dave Eggers teaming up with Achek Deng for What is the What, with Abdulrahman Zeitoun for Zeitoun, and Mokhtar Alkhanshali for The Monk of Mokha. True, these are considered Eggers books, so they're still known for being written by a white guy who grew up in the Chicago suburbs, but they have avoided the charge of exploitation or appropriation.

Avoid these three things, and you've likely avoided most of the pitfalls.

CWatts · Jun 14, 2020

All so well said I don't have much to add.
With the whole monuments debate I've been advocating for black Union soldiers to replace some of the Confederates and signal boosting the story of Norfolk, VA born Sgt. William H. Csrney, flagbearer of the 54th Massachusetts and first black man awarded the Medal of Honor. https://www.militarytimes.com/milit...rst-black-soldier-to-earn-the-medal-of-honor/

Glory is a magnificent film, but imagine how much richer it could have been if Denzel's fictional character Trip had been faithfully written as Carney. Those whip scars were inflicted on a child. His struggle for survival during the battle of Ft. Wagner, never letting the flag touch the ground despite being shot again and again, would have been *rivetting*.

Taylor Harbin · Jun 17, 2020

This has been on my mind a lot lately because one of my slated future projects involves the history of Mexico in the 1930s (not the central focus of the book, but a large part of it and one very important character is Mexican). I hate to think that any writer would be precluded from writing about other cultures, but I can also see why one needs to be very careful. Glad I’m a long way from starting any serious work so I can get more guidance.

Raveneye · Jun 19, 2020

Timely question, great discussion. This issue has been continually on my mind, ever since deciding to set a novel in 19th Century Egypt. I know full well that I will have to be extremely careful in how I write about the relations between my European and Muslim characters, during this era of rampant imperialism and attitudes of European dominance. I've been researching my tail off, but will still seek a sensitivity reader as I hone down toward the final draft. My only comfort is that my main character is an ignorant English girl whose never traveled abroad before, so she's bound to misinterpret some things and completely miss others while being horrified at the attitudes she encounters. (compare white author Kathryn Stockett writing through a white female to explore the reality of 1960s "help")

The very existence of sensitivity readers is a sign of how touchy readers are (rightly so), and how we authors have to put in the extra mile.

I guess it's important to expect a backlash. We authors can only do our best, and that will mean we are bound to miss something, as we tackle a topic or a culture that critics may say we should've handled differently or not at all, which isn't true.

If I'm going to write about one of my first loves, which is Egyptology, then I cannot avoid writing about the local culture. To avoid including it, because a reader says I should because it isn't my own, then I write a lie by removing it as a present reality--and that would marginalize an entire country, which would be the greater sin.

As long as the effort is made to be inclusive and respectful--and truthful--then give the poor author a break. Chances are they've been struggling for years to get it right, and how long did the critic spend with it, only to tear it apart? A few hours at most.

/rant

So, I guess, write the story that's in you. If you wait for "the right person" to write it instead, it won't happen, or they would've done so. Just be prepared for those voices who may shout ugly things.

Girlsgottawrite · Jun 24, 2020

This is such a hard issue to approach. For very good reasons, there is a lot of unrest at the moment in regards to race and race relations. I support that, but the reality is that I'm afraid it might hurt my chances of getting my antebellum (and bellum) novels published, or noticed at all. I'm a white woman, and I think there will be people who believe I shouldn't write about slavery (though it would be much worse to not write about slavery while writing about the antebellum/war period). And I think agents will think the same and won't want to approach my mss with a ten-foot pole because one-of-four or one-of-three of my main characters (depending on the book) are black and enslaved or formerly enslaved. This is the era that fascinates me; I can't avoid the subject of slavery; so should I just stop writing about the era that fascinates me? I feel in a bit of a bind there. To be clear, this isn't all to do with the recent protests--which I support; the question of race in America is a very old and enduring one. This unrest didn't happen overnight. It's not something that I am resentful about, either. It's just a reality I have to navigate. Hey, it's difficult stuff--it requires navigating and deep thought and care.

One thing I will say in relation to getting right a culture that isn't your own is to read primary sources but to understand what people are saying/thinking about it now, as well. I've made a point of consuming as much current scholarship on the antebellum, Civil War, and Reconstruction eras as possible.

If I'm going to write about one of my first loves, which is Egyptology, then I cannot avoid writing about the local culture. To avoid including it, because a reader says I should because it isn't my own, then I write a lie by removing it as a present reality--and that would marginalize an entire country, which would be the greater sin.

Both of you said it better than I probably could. I totally support BLM and think it's about time, quite frankly. But this has become a real conundrum for me.

I wrote a book set in the 1890's south. The main character is white but a number of the secondary characters are black. The story isn't about racism, but it is touched on now and again because that was the reality of the time. I spent a great deal of time researching and reading as to not be insensitive or unknowingly use stereotypes. I really just wanted to write a story that felt inclusive and respectful. I think I did a good job, but I'm afraid agents won't have anything to do with it right now because it's such a touchy subject.

I've been seriously considering rewriting it and changing the SCs to white to avoid this, but it just feels wrong. I want representation in my books. I don't want them only to be for white/straight people. I want to make them accessible. But I worry it won't even be given a chance, right now.

I would love to hear what others think. Am I worrying about something that's not so much of an issue or am I setting myself up to lose with this novel?

Woollybear · Jun 26, 2020

Relevant to the discussion--some of you no doubt have seen this already on PW:

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw...g-ya-novel-ember-days-canceled-by-author.html

Mutive · Jun 26, 2020

I've been seriously considering rewriting it and changing the SCs to white to avoid this, but it just feels wrong. I want representation in my books. I don't want them only to be for white/straight people. I want to make them accessible. But I worry it won't even be given a chance, right now.

I would love to hear what others think. Am I worrying about something that's not so much of an issue or am I setting myself up to lose with this novel?

My opinion should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt as I'm white and, even if I were not, opinions are opinions.

Honestly, though, in times/places that should be diverse (e.g. many areas of the US south, Los Angeles, etc.) if there *are* no non-white characters, it comes off as kind of weird to me. (Like, I could never get into Angel as I kept wondering where the Hispanics had gone. It's set in Los Angeles...WHY ARE THERE NO HISPANIC CHARACTERS? WHAT HAVE HAPPENED TO THEM? DID THE VAMPIRES GET THEM?!!!) Even imperfect (and all things are imperfect) representation seems better than peculiarities where people are just missing.

(With that said, if an author is concerned that they'll write poorly enough that it comes off as offensive, or just doesn't care to research, I think it makes more sense to find times and places that won't encounter these issues.)

PyriteFool · Jun 26, 2020

This issue is literally what sensitivity readers are for. Do the research to the best of your ability then hire (yes, you do have to pay them) a sensitivity reader or multiple, depending on your characters’ marginalizations. SRs can’t fix your entire book, but I think they are a necessary step in portraying marginalized identities.

As a white author, I recognize I’m going to have to make sacrifices to try and correct the structural inequalities designed to benefit people like me. That means paying SRs and yes, it means not telling stories I might want to tell in the way I want to tell them. That sucks. It hurts. The silencing of BIPOC voices hurts astronomically more. The issue isn’t that agents don’t want to touch “sensitive” topics. The issue is that the *are* willing. Too willing! If it comes from a white author. We’ve seen it time and time again, yes even recently. So white authors have to do our part, which means not taking up space and stepping aside. At the end of the day, we have more stories in us that don’t require coopting other people’s voices.

Snitchcat · Jun 27, 2020

Also, research #ownvoices.

There are stories that aren't yours to tell.

InkFinger · Jun 27, 2020

Snitchcat said:
There are stories that aren't yours to tell.

I am basically watching this thread, but the above is a dangerous thought. If the writers don't tell the stories, they won't get told. Be sensitive, be careful, for sure, but to leave the telling for those experiencing it will deprive the world of at least some stories.

If there is someone who can tell the story, fine, but we should not shy from stories that need telling because we did not experience them.

Snitchcat · Jun 27, 2020

InkFinger said:
I am basically watching this thread, but the above is a dangerous thought. If the writers don't tell the stories, they won't get told. Be sensitive, be careful, for sure, but to leave the telling for those experiencing it will deprive the world of at least some stories.

If there is someone who can tell the story, fine, but we should not shy from stories that need telling because we did not experience them.

You missed the point.

Research #ownvoices.

You cannot tell the story of a Chinese refugee when you are not a Chinese refugee. Of practicality, your story will be from an outside perspective.

Appropriating Other People's History?

Toughen up.

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

down the rabbit hole of research...

Writing Anarchist

down the rabbit hole of research...

Potentially has/is dog

never mind the shorty

down the rabbit hole of research...

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

down the rabbit hole of research...

Power to the pen!

Hope and a Purpose

I write at work...

Blissfully Clueless

Dragon-kitty.

Dragon-kitty.