Problems getting an agent and problem agents

Woollybear

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Without being able to speak for anyone else, I suspect many of us on the outside of the publishing business are simply trying to understand this business a little better.

I read this blog post and found it engrossing and disturbing. Also enlightening. Every paragraph is enlightening, for different reasons. The subtext is enlightening. The back and forth Foz had with others after posting the entry is likewise enlightening.

Agents are the people we are sort of expected to bend our vision toward, because they 'offer so much' and they 'know the business.' They are connected. Also, when we aren't offered representation, common wisdom holds that we didn't ... work hard enough or maybe the manuscript simply wasn't good enough ('not ready')--implicit in all of this is a sort of idea that the agents ... know better than we do. They're the professionals. That's good--because many of us have no idea how any of it works past the writing.

And we'd like to understand.

When agents don't get back to us on queries or worse, don't get back to us on requests, we're expected to understand that they are 'busy people.' They read queries 'in their spare time' and they aren't paid to do so. They get thousands of queries each year for one signing. We need to understand. They're paid to represent their clients, not wade through slush.*

The blog post (by Foz Meadows) paints a different picture of *all* of this, each of these things. It's her personal experience, and it is a far more intimate experience with the workings of the industry than a failed querier like myself will ever have. But you know what, every few months you see another story that really challenges some of any-or-all of the above. Maybe a writer-turned-agent agent quits altogether out of the blue, or another is tarred and feathered (for understandable if unkind) reasons, or another has bizarre practices up front (demanding a certain SM presence with a set number of followers and you can only query if you find the key word in the three-part you-tube video series...) or does a blanket sub to publishers without optimizing the submission first. Or... A six figure auction deal gets raked over the coals for some reason or other and ... releases are cancelled ... and... and... and.

What a messy business to succeed in.

I'd like to have a firm grasp of the people I query, especially since, yes, it should be a professional business relationship. Some queries I sent took multiple hours to research and compose. The record was four hours for a single letter, and I sent 140 queries. That's not a complaint, it's math; altogether my (very willing and un-regretted) choice to query agents equaled several full-time work weeks of my life.

Personally, I learned through the process, which I value, and I move forward content and doing things differently now. All good, no regrets.

I believe that many of us standing outside and knocking on the windows simply want to understand. At times like this it feels there's a sighting--of the dark underbelly of the beast. We start to wonder what else we wish we knew. I had a few (nothing-to-do-with-BLM-or-diversity) interactions with a couple agents at Red Sofa about two years ago. Both experiences left me feeling disoriented and devalued. I recognized at the time that I couldn't 'give them that power over me' and kept chugging along. I tell you though, seeing this blog post of events happening in 2017 put those 2018 experiences into a new context.

That's all. I wrote this to get my thoughts out. Part of me is thinking if I hit Post on this, some agent will see it someday and decide I'm too much trouble. It would not be strategic for me to hit post. Maybe that's why, to date, I fail.

Okie dokie, enough procrastinating.

* We are 'the slush.' Perhaps it's time to reconsider that language.
 
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AW Admin

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This is moved from the Red Sofa Literary Bewares thread because it's more of a general complaint about agents and agenting than anything to do with the specific agency.

That said, you know what? If you write a really great book, that doesn't mean that it's going to be loved by everyone, or, and this is important, that a publisher will be able to make money, and that therefore, the agent will make money.

Agents are literary agents as a job. They have to be right or they can't pay their rent.

Moreover, sometimes the problem is with the query; if you're not getting requests for chapters or fulls, you may have a poor query.

If you are, and still not getting an agent, it's quite possible that you should move on and write another book.
 

lizmonster

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FWIW, I don't think any (reasonable) agent would blacklist you for asking questions, or for being frustrated.

I've had some...interesting experiences in publishing, about which I'll say three things:

1) I worked in software for 27 years before I published. Most of the people I dealt with were lovely. I don't believe there are a higher percentage of bad actors in publishing than there are in the software business.

2) It is a bit of a black box, in part because publishing is a small business, in part because there's something of a power differential, and in part because an awful lot of the agent/author relationship is personality-based, and an agent who doesn't work for Author X might work beautifully for Author Y.

3) What happened to Foz Meadows was inexcusable and awful, but not the only shocking example I've heard. I'm not sure it's productive to use that as a frame for discussing the publishing business and what agents do/don't offer to authors.

When agents don't get back to us on queries or worse, don't get back to us on requests, we're expected to understand that they are 'busy people.' They read queries 'in their spare time' and they aren't paid to do so. They get thousands of queries each year for one signing. We need to understand. They're paid to represent their clients, not wade through slush.*

It is actually important to understand this, but it's also not always them being busy.

At a Readercon panel some years ago, someone (think it was Ellen Datlow, but I could be misremembering) talked about why she stopped providing feedback with rejections. In essence, she got too many people who'd take her elaborate R, make the changes she listed, and send the story back, saying "I fixed all these things - you're buying it now, right??" She simply did not have the time - or the heart - to deal with such people.

This doesn't even get into the area of stalking and threats.

As for the busy thing? Reading for clients, negotiating with publishers, dealing with other rights/other issues/problems/schedules/acts of God actually takes a huge amount of time. Agents get behind on queries not because they're ignoring them, but because sometimes they can't get to them.

What a messy business to succeed in.

It is.

It's also worth noting that every book is a reset (at least until you reach, say, John Scalzi stature). Success with one book says almost nothing about success with the next. It's piecework, and it can all go south at any point.

I believe that many of us standing outside and knocking on the windows simply want to understand. At times like this it feels there's a sighting--of the dark underbelly of the beast. We start to wonder what else we wish we knew. I had a few (nothing-to-do-with-BLM-or-diversity) interactions with a couple agents at Red Sofa about two years ago. Both experiences left me feeling disoriented and devalued. I recognized at the time that I couldn't 'give them that power over me' and kept chugging along. I tell you though, seeing this blog post of events happening in 2017 put those 2018 experiences into a new context.

It seems that particular agency was taking its cues from the person at the top. I never dealt with them, so I can't say. The agents I've dealt with have been more siloed; I've never had interactions with anyone else at the agency. And two data points wouldn't mean much anyway.

The big issue with trying to get published is supply and demand. There will always be more writers than publishing deals, by a factor of thousands. Good books get missed - and yes, bad actors end up in positions of power, and it's hard to unseat them. What struck me about the blog post in question is how helpless the author felt. Could she have done something differently? Not without being able to talk to someone who had the full, 360-degree scoop. She was trapped in a bad situation by people acting in bad faith.

That happens. Happened to me in software, too, which isn't an excuse - it's just saying publishing isn't worse than any other profit-based business.

I think all that can really be done is research. AW is an amazing resource. So is Victoria Strauss. I still think the best resource is your own instincts: if an agent makes you feel bad when you talk to them, run away, no matter how convinced you are they're your only shot at all this. (There's never only one shot, not unless you very publicly act like an asshat.) It may just be a case of them not gelling with you personally. It may be a case of you subliminally noticing something "off."

And if you don't notice anything and end up in a bad relationship? Still not your fault. But you should still run for the hills.

I know that doesn't clear up the black box problem. I've got three books in print, and it still feels opaque to me. What I've learned is which questions to ask, and that I'm actually pretty good at knowing when something is wrong, even though I'm new to this business.
 
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Calla Lily

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Thank you, liz. Great post.

I've had two agents; neither experience ended well. The first agent lied about subbing and then up and quit. The second loved me when I was shiny and new, but dropped me for shinier and newer. I refused to see the signals because at first everything was great.

I've been published with a few medium to small publishers. I'm still aiming at a breakout novel.

I've had agented contracts and contracts I signed myself. Short story contracts are simpler and I read + sign those on my own. However, I will say this: a good agent is trained to see through the legalese of detailed contracts (multi-book, for ex.). No one expects things to go south. A good agent has your back. I won't sign a book contract without first signing with a proven agent I can trust again.

#WhyWritersDrink
 

lizmonster

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I've had two agents; neither experience ended well. The first agent lied about subbing and then up and quit. The second loved me when I was shiny and new, but dropped me for shinier and newer. I refused to see the signals because at first everything was great.

This is a good point. IME, in the beginning, writers do get wooed a bit. Publishers will do this too. As writers, we're so often hungry for praise, for someone to tell us "Yes, this is marvelous! We are so happy to have you!"

The thing is, I think they mean it when they say it. But then everything moves on, and sometimes you don't move on with it, and that's a rough day.
 

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I'm going to quote a series of Tweets by Jennifer Laughran an agent at Andrea Brown Literary Agency, Inc.

Lots of people are intimidated by agents.
But there's a difference between "agent, strong personality!" and "agent, abusive asshole!"

If your agent lies, gaslights you, belittles or screams at you, makes you feel stupid for asking questions or refuses to answer?

FIRE THEM.

I've heard too many cases where authors thought, well, that's just how agents are, or I guess I deserve it :(

OMG NO my sweet babies!

Your agent can be pugnacious, a fighter, but only if they're fighting FOR YOU. You should be able to trust them and feel safe absolutely.

Your agent is your fiduciary, with an ethical, legal obligation to be truthful, transparent, and always work in your best interest. You don't have to be BFFs with them; you DO have to trust them. If you can't, you're f*%ked

Sorry I JUST GET WORKED UP when people ABUSE AUTHORS
 

mccardey

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Without being able to speak for anyone else, I suspect many of us on the outside of the publishing business are simply trying to understand this business a little better.

I read this blog post and found it engrossing and disturbing. Also enlightening. Every paragraph is enlightening, for different reasons. The subtext is enlightening. The back and forth Foz had with others after posting the entry is likewise enlightening.

<<snip>>

Part of me is thinking if I hit Post on this, some agent will see it someday and decide I'm too much trouble. It would not be strategic for me to hit post. Maybe that's why, to date, I fail.

You're putting one example of extreme bad behaviour by one agency head (and remember, it's extreme enough that she lost agents and clients over it) up against all the other laudable behaviour by other agency heads that isn't even remotely newsworthy.

Everyone deserves an agent if they want one - and a house and a pony. But truly, nobody actually needs one in order to write. If you want to be trade published, a good agent will help with that - but like your desire to be trade pubbed, her agency is something that both of you need to be comfortable with. She's running a business: you would like to be part of it: she thinks you could add to it. Fitting their business model is naturally an aspect of that - if you disagree with her on fundamental issues, it's not going to work.

The agents I know are lovely, thoughtful, committed and generous. They're not gatekeepers. They're people who love books and writers readers enough to not mind that they won't get rich facilitating the introductions.
 

Woollybear

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The agents I know are likewise lovely. Recently met a new one, in the music business--not writing--but she's writing the memoir of a show runner for Nine-Inch Nails.

The movie producers I know are lovely, and the actors I know ... likewise lovely.

I believe in humanity, and I'm glad we all have a good feeling about it.
 
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Cephus

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This is a good point. IME, in the beginning, writers do get wooed a bit. Publishers will do this too. As writers, we're so often hungry for praise, for someone to tell us "Yes, this is marvelous! We are so happy to have you!"

The thing is, I think they mean it when they say it. But then everything moves on, and sometimes you don't move on with it, and that's a rough day.

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that this is a business. An agent or a publisher may look at that debut novel and see potential in it, but at the end of the day, if it isn't flying off of shelves, they've got no time to waste on you. That's the job of a publisher, to sell books. It isn't to find authors, it's to find saleable authors. You could write an amazing book, but if it doesn't make the publisher money, they're not going to have you write another. Your agent may personally love your work, but it's their job to sell it to publishers and if nobody is biting, they're going to have to go looking elsewhere. They have to. They have to make money.
 

lizmonster

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What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that this is a business.

I don't think anybody here misses this.

The truth, though, is that it's not either sell your debut to a Big 5 or get dropped. It can take time and effort to build a publishing career. It can take smaller deals, and interim books that don't sell. It can also take a big, splashy debut, and fighting to find the right market for subsequent, often different work. It can be a wildly non-linear path, and you may always struggle to sell. It's worth asking a prospective agent how they handle situations like this. To me, it's worth the trouble to find an agent willing to focus on your whole career, no matter how convoluted it might be, no matter how slowly it might start.

There are also ways of dropping people. If an agent can't move your work, that doesn't mean your work is bad or that the agent doesn't like it. It may only mean that the agent doesn't have the right contacts for what you've got. In that situation, professional people should be able to part ways amicably, and indeed I've heard of many professional relationships that have ended just like this.
 

WeaselFire

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In general, I've found three categories of people that can never seem to find an agent. First is the guy who didn't write a book worth publishing. This could be a bad or out of date topic with little or no current demand, a bad writer who can't spell or put a sentence together or simply a book which has a very minimal audience. An eight page treatise on how to place a cup on a saucer just isn't going to excite most agents.

The second is an author who wrote a passable book on a relatively salable topic but only sends it to the wrong agents. Sending a true crime novel to an agent who works in the children's illustrated stories world likely is never going to grab the agent's attention.

The third is the most sad I've seen. It's a phenomenal, on topic, perfectly written novel with a wide audience with a truly crappy query letter. "God told me to send this directly to you..." or "Are you an agent? I wrote a book..." queries seem to come from even the best writers at times.

Agents only get paid when books sell, and paid well if the books sell well. Most agents won't take a chance on a book that might fail, especially when they have a choice of other options they know will sell, possibly even sell well. But you never know what will hit a particular agent and what might interest them. The agent that works with illustrated children's stories may read true crime for entertainment, recognize a good work and pass it on to an agent she knows who works in that genre.

It's a game of numbers. If one in fifty agents will represent you, then you need to send to at least fifty agents to get represented. Targeted submissions, like sending the true crime novel to agents who represent true crime, will cut the number needed to get representation, so work to get the best results out of your effort.

There is a fourth category, but it's the writer who writes a very good book and puts it in the desk drawer thinking nobody would ever buy it. Best you can hope for is to be their heir cleaning out their desk.

Jeff
 

lizmonster

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There is a fourth category, but it's the writer who writes a very good book and puts it in the desk drawer thinking nobody would ever buy it. Best you can hope for is to be their heir cleaning out their desk.

There's also a fifth: the good book with a good query that gets sent to the right agents, but doesn't get picked up. There's a huge subjective component to agenting, and there simply aren't enough agents out there to guarantee that every book readers would love will find rep.

And apropos of current events, an author's ethnicity, sexuality, and gender can play into their chances as well. It's ugly, but it's true.

I can't really say "don't read too much into not being able to get an agent" when a lot of this board is giving people advice based on the assumption that the author's book/query must be at issue if they're not getting bites. I do think it's always worth giving your query/pages another look if you're having no luck. But sometimes, for real, it's not the book or the query that's the problem.

I think maybe this was a long-winded "don't give up" post. :)
 
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mccardey

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There's also a fifth: the good book with a good query that gets sent to the right agents, but doesn't get picked up. There's a huge subjective component to agenting, and there simply aren't enough agents out there to guarantee that every book readers would love will find rep.

And it doesn't end there. You can have a good book and a good query and get signed by a good agent who gets a good reply from a very good publishing house - and have the deal-making quashed by Marketing.

Don't ask me how I know this.

ETA:
This is my short-winded "don't-give-up" post - but it's also my quarterly reminder to not be a writer unless you love writing so much that you've been doing it since you can remember, and you plan to go right on doing it because it's basically breathing for your soul.
 
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Fuchsia Groan

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And then there’s the book that gets picked up, and critics like it, and booksellers like it, and readers out there apparently don’t like it. Did the gatekeepers make a mistake? Is the market weird? Should the author be writing for a different set of readers? Who knows. Who knows.
 

waylander

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And it doesn't end there. You can have a good book and a good query and get signed by a good agent who gets a good reply from a very good publishing house - and have the deal-making quashed by Marketing.

Don't ask me how I know this.

I recognise this for the truth it is.
 

PeteMC

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Please don't think Foz's experience is typical. It isn't. My agent is absolutely fantastic, and I wouldn't ever be without her.
 

lizmonster

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Proper quoting not working, but quoting PeteMC in post #16:

Please don't think Foz's experience is typical. It isn't. My agent is absolutely fantastic, and I wouldn't ever be without her.

No, Foz's experience isn't typical. But neither is it unique, and it was with the owner of a long-standing, reputable agency. I don't blame those seeking agents for being concerned by this; it's a concerning thing.

The thing to do, of course, is to bug out of a professional relationship the first time your agent makes you feel bad. But that's difficult to do in a business where having an agent is your best route to establishing a long-term career.

Wish I could find it, but someone a few months back posted a pie chart of people who'd had more than one agent (a voluntary poll, so not scientific). About half were on their second agent, but the rest had had anywhere from 3 to 5 agents in their career. Which on the one hand is hair-raising, but on the other - I don't think we talk enough about the fact that a decent percentage writers can and do change agents. Not that they do it because of a Foz Meadows situation, but it's absolutely a thing, and nobody (AFAIK!) in publishing looks down on a writer for it.
 
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mccardey

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Wish I could find it, but someone a few months back posted a pie chart of people who'd had more than one agent (a voluntary poll, so not scientific). About half were on their second agent, but the rest had had anywhere from 3 to 5 agents in their career.
I'm on my fourth. The first was for film and TV, the three following for books. The second one (who was really much too big for a beginner, but I started very well) sold me in TV and my first book as well - but sadly, he died. The third was lovely and sold me, the fourth is new to me and in the UK because it seems like a better marketplace for my kind of writing. They have all been excellent, though knowing what I know now, I'd say it's just as important to choose an agent that you feel very comfortable calling up with questions, as it is to have an agent at all.
 
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lizmonster

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(Can't quote properly; this is in reply to watchtower at #19)

Their obsessions with the word submission...

They have the network, writers have the talent. Agents should show more respect.

I'd like to ask that we don't do this here.

Foz Meadows had a horrible experience with one agent at one agency. Others corroborated her experiences with that person. There are a handful of documented cases of other bad actors here and there.

These individuals are not representative of the industry as a whole, and I don't see anything useful in discussing agenting like the whole profession is some adversarial wall set up between writers and publishers.

It is, in fact, exactly the opposite of that.

I, the writer, am a freelancer. My agent helps me find markets, negotiate contracts, understand what's going on in the publishing world. She is a business partner who handles the business side of things so I can pay attention to the writing. She makes things easier for me.

Do you need an agent to get published? Nope. Do you need an agent to get published well? Also nope, but it's harder, and the success/failure on that often falls along genre lines, and can be dependent on how productive you are.

An agent is a business partner, and a good agent will benefit your business as well as theirs. You, the individual writer, might not need such a business partner for your specific business, but a lot of writers do.

So maybe let's not with the blanket statements. Please. As a personal favor.
 

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(Can't quote properly; this is in reply to watchtower at #19)



I'd like to ask that we don't do this here.

Foz Meadows had a horrible experience with one agent at one agency. Others corroborated her experiences with that person. There are a handful of documented cases of other bad actors here and there.

These individuals are not representative of the industry as a whole, and I don't see anything useful in discussing agenting like the whole profession is some adversarial wall set up between writers and publishers.

It is, in fact, exactly the opposite of that.

I, the writer, am a freelancer. My agent helps me find markets, negotiate contracts, understand what's going on in the publishing world. She is a business partner who handles the business side of things so I can pay attention to the writing. She makes things easier for me.

Do you need an agent to get published? Nope. Do you need an agent to get published well? Also nope, but it's harder, and the success/failure on that often falls along genre lines, and can be dependent on how productive you are.

An agent is a business partner, and a good agent will benefit your business as well as theirs. You, the individual writer, might not need such a business partner for your specific business, but a lot of writers do.

So maybe let's not with the blanket statements. Please. As a personal favor.

Why accept the status quo? As someone who just invested over a year of research and writing, it's obvious that I have done a lot more to make the book manifest than anyone else. Without the work of ALL writers, agents and publishers would be trying to get AI to write books, movies, etc.

I've come up for air in the last month or two to look at the idea of getting a publisher or agent, and the whole process of "submission" strikes me as arrogant.

That said, there are agents and publishers who put out an email and invite. Good.

But for every one like that, there are "more" who appear to take the stance that writers are employees, or annoyances.

Writers are the lowest on the totem pole in LA and Burgess had to sue to get paid for 2001.

This is nothing new.

(You gonna delete this too?)

I pdf'd it. I'll use it in my lectures.
 
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AW Admin

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I'm going to remind people once that we're serious about respecting your fellow writer.

Please see The Newbie Guide to Absolute Write if you've forgotten the rules of the road.

We are not going to dismiss an entire profession because of a few schamagents.

- - - Updated - - -

Why accept the status quo? As someone who just invested over a year of research and writing, it's obvious that I have done a lot more to make the book manifest than anyone else. Without the work of ALL writers, agents and publishers would be trying to get AI to write books, movies, etc.

I've come up for air in the last month or two to look at the idea of getting a publisher or agent, and the whole process of "submission" strikes me as arrogant.

That said, there are agents and publishers who put out an email and invite. Good.

But for every one like that, there are "more" who appear to take the stance that writers are employees, or annoyances.

Writers are the lowest on the totem pole in LA and Burgess had to sue to get paid for 2001.

This is nothing new.

(You gonna delete this too?)

I pdf'd it. I'll use it in my lectures.

Nope. I'm not. I've got a lot of other options.

You don't.
 

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Why accept the status quo?

You don’t have to. Self-publishing is a perfectly viable alternative to traditional publishing.

But if you opt for the latter, and there are many valid reasons to, it’s probably best to both understand the system, and not waste time trying to change the things you can’t change about it.

Also probably not a good idea to suggest that people here are naive and “can’t handle the truth.”
 

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You know, watchtower can't respond, but there are some things that clearly some people don't understand.


* Suggesting that agents and publishers who "put out an email and invite" are role models is an indication that the poster is not as clued in as the poster believes.

* Please see this excellent post about agents from Writer Beware.

* I'm not naïve about agents either; I've worked for film agents and literary agents to research rights. I've had three agents (two literary, one software).

* I spent a substantial amount of time researching a particularly notorious literary agent for a court case. I am well aware that there are schamagents

* A year spent researching agents or publishing and writing is trivial. That's just getting started.

* For members who think that posters are the only people reading, think again. Agents, editors and publishers read AW too. And yes, they too are writers. Some of them are at best incompetent; most of them are doing their best, and succeeding in creating books for people to read. Don't let an obnoxious minority over shadow the true professionals.

* Legit agents and editors, btw, are often the ones calling out the less-than-legit.

* If you don't want an agent and want to rep yourself, go ahead, it's your money, your time, your book, and your career. You're the one who gets to choose. If you want to self-publish, do it. If you want to be trade published, do it. But don't knock other people's choices.

* I'm spending a fair amount of my personal time and energy keeping AW up and running despite fairly aggressive attempts to knock us offline.

* I mean it when I say RYFW.
 
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Goshawk31

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I'm very discouraged by the querying process and appreciate any and all comments on how to best go about it. My conclusion, after what feels like dozens of non-responses, is to take a good look at my book and consider a major rewrite. Has anyone out there had luck with the huge rewrite concept or is a completely new book a better idea. (And, yeah, I know it all 'depends' but some experiences would be most helpful to hear.)
 

AW Admin

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I'm very discouraged by the querying process and appreciate any and all comments on how to best go about it. My conclusion, after what feels like dozens of non-responses, is to take a good look at my book and consider a major rewrite. Has anyone out there had luck with the huge rewrite concept or is a completely new book a better idea. (And, yeah, I know it all 'depends' but some experiences would be most helpful to hear.)

Have you had requests for partials or fulls from your queries?