Possible to lift a human by the spine?

Deepthought said:

Yes, it needs to be done. The reason is because the boy, over the course of several years of imprisonment, goes through cycles of escape attempts, subsequent failures, and punishments- this conditions him and thus empty threats won't work. What's interesting is that some kids become more rebellious while others become more withdrawn, when subject to such conditions. In this case, he develops a sort of gambler's fallacy mindset- "this time, it's different!"- and so he never really learns his lesson. This is because he has hope that he only needs to escape once to have all the problems disappear, rather than expected failure. So the threat of disability or some other extreme thing would be needed because the man has to do something to avoid prison and get his daughter back.

That's an interesting phenomenon. Never to actually hurt someone, but with so many threats, it becomes reality. In the story, the boy has his parent's teachings conflict with what he confronts, which leads to a twisted morality- one of the escape attempts involves holding the man's daughter at knifepoint.

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Psychological trauma can be just as damaging as physical trauma, especially (but not only) for children.

mccardey said:

I do like this idea very much. Unless it's a horror story, I wonder if you need to make the workings so extreme. There's a lot of harm that can be done to children (to anyone) by a bully - even a bully who doesn't see themselves as such - with words and threats and power-plays. The child, being a child, will often then act out with more actual physical damage to a smaller child.

I knew of a child who used to be dragged screaming to the gas stove on the threat that his hands would be burned if he didn't admit this or that and apologise; it was all bound up with religion, and so seemed to be backed up with priests and nuns talking about burning in hell for all eternity - it had a real stamp of authority for the poor little kid (five, six, seven years old). No surprises that as a young teenager he set fire to his sister's dress while she was wearing it...

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OMG, that poor, poor kid.

I was lucky enough to be raised in a loving, gentle household, and even I succumbed to the terror of threatened pain on occasion.

I vividly remember when I was maybe seven or eight, my father came home one day and announced it was time to treat a wart I had on my hand. My older brother pulled me aside and "warned" me that the treatment was to cut the wart out with a knife. (My father had no idea this conversation occurred). I immediately ran and hid, but my father found me and, ignoring my tearful protests, he grabbed my hand, forced it open and...dabbed the wart with a bit of liquid.

I still remember the shock of going from utter terror and dread to "wait, was that all?"

More relevant to the thread topic, that same brother used to pick me up by the neck (he'd use two hands and, without squeezing, carefully lift me straight up). I apparently found this hilarious and would giggle the whole time. I think he stopped sometime when I was in 3rd or 4th grade. Just mentioning this to say that it is, indeed, possible (albeit ill-advised) to lift a child by the neck without injuring them.

Lots of 'less' weird ways to go, in the space of a shed - no need to reinvent the wheel (complicated and hard to built quietly).
Waterboarding.
Hanging the boy by his arms - not only painful in itself, but the strain on the muscles surrounding the lungs makes it hard to breathe.

Cutting off fingers? Or crushing them (like in the hammer scene in Casino)?

Both water-boarding and hanging by the arms are apparently quite effective on adult soldiers and religious zealots.
Of course, if you're determined to do something icky and visible, taking an eye out would fit the bill.
Apparently, a common threat in child abductions is the old tried-and-true "Try anything and I'll kill your parents/family/whatever is dear to the victim's heart." Anything that they are attached to, but won't be able to check on.

Hurting a child in graphic detail is going to be a very hard sell, if you're looking to be trade published. There are too many people who would simply not want to read about it.

mccardey said:

Hurting a child in graphic detail is going to be a very hard sell, if you're looking to be trade published. There are too many people who would simply not want to read about it.

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Seconding this. I'm clearly not your target audience, because I find this whole thread hellishly disturbing. Who is your target audience?

frimble3 said:

Of course, if you're determined to do something icky and visible, taking an eye out would fit the bill.

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Deepthought said:

I had already taken his eye out from another scene...

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And now I'm compelled to explain for the thousandth time on AW that it's really, really hard to "take out an eye." Want to stab someone in the eye? Cool. Go for your life. Want to physically remove an eye ... good luck with that.

Also ... again ... you're doing this to a kid? Okie dokie.

be frank said:

And now I'm compelled to explain for the thousandth time on AW that it's really, really hard to "take out an eye."

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See, now I just want to take my own eye out so I can say, I dunno, I've done it. It was easy.

I'm not taking my eye out for you, OP. I'm just saying...

Deepthought said:

It's done to a child to work with the dynamics of how a child befriends a criminal's children and conflicts that ensue with those relationships, as well as other parties involved.

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Just throwing this out there - are you maybe hitting the theme with a hammer?

Deepthought said:

Not sure who the target audience is. The story takes place over the course of several years so I thought it would go in YA, but a lot of people read that these days. ?? I have no clue what the bolded part means

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For trade pub? Self pub? (I'm just curious!)

Deepthought said:

The eyes were swapped out by a doctor so it's not a problem.

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Erm ... this is still a big problem. "Swapped out"? Wut? Is your MS fantasy? Is this a magic doctor?

Deepthought said:

The boy is nearly blind befire the kidnap. After the eye thing, he is able to see.

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Okay, again ... is this fantasy? Because remember how you can't really carry someone around by their spine? Similarly, you can't just "swap out" eyes and have a character go from nearly blind to being able to see. That ... isn't a thing.

Deepthought said:

I'm actually not sure how it'll go. If it won't go through a traditional route, then something else- I wouldn't want to compromise the story itself. I was thinking if Hunger Games can kill a bunch of kids off and be popular, it shouldn't be an issue.

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It is not about how many kids die or suffer in a book. It is about the (graphical) depictions that may or may not make a book acceptable to the audience or even you getting into legal trouble.

Killing dogs are big no nos in books and movies, yet John Wick's dog is killed in the movie and the movie is set to become a classic. What goes? First, the bad guys killed the dog, not John, and the baddies pay dearly for that ultimate crime. Second, there is no bloody scene showing the dog suffering.

You were pondering to market this book as YA (and you need to research what constitutes a YA book; it's not just the age). Anyway, YA books cover plenty of dark themes including but not limited to child sexual abuse. Again, the key point is the depiction. A book with two teens have sex is fine; a book with two teens have graphical (portrayal of) sex is child pornography. A book with children being abused is one thing; a book where children are graphically portrayed of being tortured or abused is another, and typically a big NO-NO.

I...

Yeah.

I’m just here for the replies. Also kinda pissed off because a couple months ago I had an eye condition that took weeks to resolve and my eye doctor didn’t even suggest swapping out my eye.

How old was the boy when he was kidnapped, and how long has he been held captive? I'm thinking that it doesn't take that long for Stockholm syndrome to set in, and that a child, reasonably treated and taken young, would start going along with the kidnapper.
I think that for the amount of resistance you're talking about, he'd have to be a mid-teenager, at least.

Deepthought said:

There are elements of sci-fi in it but its a standard story otherwise. A bit like magical realism except sci-fi instead of magic, if that makes sense? There are some other things involved but I imagine that calling out its impracticality and say it works out without getting into the specifics of how it does, is what I'm going for.

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Not to get too hung up on this (it's your story, do what you want), but what you're talking about is the equivalent of hand-waving away a brain transplant. It's not a minor no one will question the swapping out eyes thing if I don't make a big deal about it thing. Not in a mostly contemp setting.

There ARE ways to restore someone's sight with surgery (eg: trauma-induced cataracts), but what you seem to be imagining probably needs a far future setting or to be more heavily sci fi than you think. Otherwise, it just reads like you want something cool to happen but aren't fussed about reality or doing even the bare minimum of research.

Nutshell: Suspension of disbelief is a major issue here.

And again, if you're planning to self pub, this is less of an issue. Write whatever you want, no one will stop you.

frimble3 said:

How old was the boy when he was kidnapped, and how long has he been held captive? I'm thinking that it doesn't take that long for Stockholm syndrome to set in, and that a child, reasonably treated and taken young, would start going along with the kidnapper.

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FWIW, Stockholm Syndrome is probably not a thing, either.

Surely it's just a matter of squishing an eye into the orbit with your thumb? Maybe both thumbs if it's a bit resistant. In fact, you could probably get another thumb off someone else, just to make sure. All those muscles and the optic nerve will just attach naturally.

Helix said:

Surely it's just a matter of squishing an eye into the orbit with your thumb? Maybe both thumbs if it's a bit resistant. In fact, you could probably get another thumb off someone else, just to make sure. All those muscles and the optic nerve will just attach naturally.

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I stand corrected.