"How do you go about publishing" debate

NINA28

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Hello,
I'm new to writing so decided to concentrate on the art before even thinking about attempting to publish, but I was reading a debate on another forum on how people get their foot through the door for the first time.
One person suggested watching the market and seeing what always seems to sell. Trends for that age group or genre that don't seem to go away. (Not sure what he meant by that and he never gave an example). Another lady said, that's an ineffective way of doing it because by the time your novel is written and to a publishing standard the market has moved on. But I can remember the paranormal romance rage going on for years during and after Twilight. Suddenly everyone was writing them, before it has been kids as wizarding school. This debate kept going on as to which method was more effective. Writing what was selling or what you thought might sell next or just hoping for the best.

So, do you write what's popular or write whatever and just hope for the best if you want writing to be more than just a hobby? How do you even navigate the market and find out what is “hot” in each genre? How do you start building a career?
Thanks for reading and answering.
 

mccardey

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Hello,
I'm new to writing so decided to concentrate on the art before even thinking about attempting to publish, but I was reading a debate on another forum on how people get their foot through the door for the first time.
One person suggested watching the market and seeing what always seems to sell. Trends for that age group or genre that don't seem to go away. (Not sure what he meant by that and he never gave an example). Another lady said, that's an ineffective way of doing it because by the time your novel is written and to a publishing standard the market has moved on. But I can remember the paranormal romance rage going on for years during and after Twilight. Suddenly everyone was writing them, before it has been kids as wizarding school. This debate kept going on as to which method was more effective. Writing what was selling or what you thought might sell next or just hoping for the best.

So, do you write what's popular or write whatever and just hope for the best if you want writing to be more than just a hobby? How do you even navigate the market and find out what is “hot” in each genre? How do you start building a career?
Thanks for reading and answering.
I would go with the lady. Write what is driving you. Get that done first, and then see what the reaction is. There's no point chasing the market. Just write.
 

lizmonster

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I'm aware there are people who are fast enough to write to market - but I think for most of us the effort of producing a book is so huge and so immersive there's little point in writing a story you don't love. Which isn't to say you can't strategically choose between multiple ideas, of course, but IMHO if the story isn't compelling you to write it, you're going to have some trouble compelling readers to read it.
 

katfeete

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Ten years ago, I listened to a university professor telling his class, “Once you get to the interview, it doesn’t matter who your degree is from, how many A’s you get, or how shiny and polished you make your resume. You will always loose the job to the person with more passion for the work.”

Stories are similar. A shiny, trendy, marketable idea might be easier to pitch, might get me past the query stage with more agents, but when it comes to buying they’re going to choose the story with a passionate voice behind it. Passion shows in the little ways and the big ones. Passion is what keeps you going through draft #20 million, what makes you turn down movie nights for a night in writing, what pushes you just that bit further to do right by the story instead of going, “meh, good enough.”

Or so I tell myself at least. Also, no idea I didn’t care passionately about has made it past quarter-finished, so there’s that. :D
 

Cephus

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You can't even think about publishing until you have a product worth putting out there. Far too many people want guarantees of success before they even put in the work to earn it. You need to be good at what you do before you approach an agent, otherwise you're going to get nowhere. Start there. Finish a million words. Then, once you have a completed manuscript in hand, you can worry about the next step.
 

veinglory

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I think like most dichotomies there is a big space in the middle between chasing tropes and writing whatever you feel like. If you want to publish with a trade press you have to write something that is within scope for them.
 

WeaselFire

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Write your stuff and submit it. That's how you get your foot in the door.

Writing to market is a myth that people who have never sold anything will tell you. It takes 12-18 months for a book to hit the market. So if it takes you six months to write and polish it, you're looking at knowing what the market will be a year and half to two years out. I can guarantee there will be a market for formula romances and cozy mysteries, but it might be vampires, zombies, werewolves, sea monsters, mermaids, witches, Norse gods, Celtic warriors, Gypsies, headhunters, cannibals or church mice that are in vogue. I can absolutely guarantee that books about the latest political or celebrity scandal will sell like hotcakes. So you had better get into politics or have an affair with a celebrity quick and write it before anyone else does. Or become a cannibal.

After all, Census takers will be around soon and you can still get fava beans and a nice chianti... :)

Jeff
 

NINA28

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fava beans and a nice chianti... :)

this made me lol
 

noranne

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I would never advise someone to write to the market, but I do think there is wisdom in writing away from the market. If there is a field that is really really saturated right now, maybe not a good time to start that new idea you have for that field. These things are cyclical and trends don't last forever, so you can always return to it later when it will feel more fresh. Of course that's not a hard and fast rule, but if you're trying to decide where to put your energy next it's something to consider.
 

clawyer80

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I kinda have the opposite question. Once you have a product you think is good, what should be your first steps to try an publish particularly if you don't have a lot of disposable income to throw at the endeavor. I mean I have some things I think might be good, but then when I look at the cost for getting and editor or book doctor, getting an agent, shopping yourself to publishers, etc... It's like I'm not trying to go into debt over this. I'm sure there's no magic path to take, but some direction would be nice.
 

lizmonster

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I kinda have the opposite question. Once you have a product you think is good, what should be your first steps to try an publish particularly if you don't have a lot of disposable income to throw at the endeavor. I mean I have some things I think might be good, but then when I look at the cost for getting and editor or book doctor, getting an agent, shopping yourself to publishers, etc... It's like I'm not trying to go into debt over this. I'm sure there's no magic path to take, but some direction would be nice.

If you're trade publishing, you shouldn't be throwing any money at the endeavor at all. Write the best book you can and query agents, or sub to publishers who take unagented material (I recommend trying the agent route first; everything is so much faster when you have rep).

Self-publishing is a little different, in that you're also the publisher, which means you've got to think about editing, book design, marketing, etc. Those services are available in all sorts of price ranges, and there are many successful self-publishers on AW who could probably tell you what is and isn't worth your money.

But if you're not doing your own publishing, you shouldn't be paying for anything, except maybe email access and/or stamps.
 

clawyer80

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If you're trade publishing, you shouldn't be throwing any money at the endeavor at all. Write the best book you can and query agents, or sub to publishers who take unagented material (I recommend trying the agent route first; everything is so much faster when you have rep).

Self-publishing is a little different, in that you're also the publisher, which means you've got to think about editing, book design, marketing, etc. Those services are available in all sorts of price ranges, and there are many successful self-publishers on AW who could probably tell you what is and isn't worth your money.

But if you're not doing your own publishing, you shouldn't be paying for anything, except maybe email access and/or stamps.


Oh I didn't know that. I guess I had it backwards. I thought agents ask for money up front to kinda get the book to a point where publishers are ready to push it. Thanks for the correction.
 

lizmonster

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Oh I didn't know that. I guess I had it backwards. I thought agents ask for money up front to kinda get the book to a point where publishers are ready to push it. Thanks for the correction.

Since this misconception comes up fairly often, I'll be more specific:

Reputable agents do not charge you. They take a percentage of what you're paid. They do not get paid util you do. Ever.

An agent who charges a fee should be avoided. A publisher who charges for a sub should be avoided.

Yog's Law: Money flows toward the author. Always.
 

Maggie Maxwell

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Oh I didn't know that. I guess I had it backwards. I thought agents ask for money up front to kinda get the book to a point where publishers are ready to push it. Thanks for the correction.

Well, some do, but we tend to call those "scammers" and "con artists". Agents are meant to sell your book in order to get a portion of the income you get from the book's sales. They don't get paid until you get paid. Same with publishers. They get paid from the book buyer in the book store, then cut you a check. Yog's Law: Money flows towards the writer. You don't pay unless you're self-publishing. Anyone trying to get paid from you is cutting out the book buyer from the "we need to get paid" equation and making you the customer.
 

Chris P

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Oh I didn't know that. I guess I had it backwards. I thought agents ask for money up front to kinda get the book to a point where publishers are ready to push it. Thanks for the correction.

Welcome to AW, clawyer80! Those ideas are widespread among people unfamiliar with the industry (I had those ideas myself) and unfortunately there is an entire cottage industry of shady vanity and subsidy publishers who play off these misconceptions to their own benefit and leaving the author holding the bag. Look around at the Bewares, Recommendations, and Background Checks forum here at AW, read the stickies there, and read some of the threads. My jaw dropped at the things some scammers try, and how easily I believed what I wanted to and got taken in with my first book (for me, fortunately it cost my nothing, but that first book is dead and gone when if could have done okay with a real publisher).

Best to learn the lessons now!

Lizmonster is right; you will need up-front money for self-publishing, but many people here have done quite well with it.
 

mccardey

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Oh I didn't know that. I guess I had it backwards. I thought agents ask for money up front to kinda get the book to a point where publishers are ready to push it. Thanks for the correction.
A lot of new writers make that mistake, and a lot of scammers make money by playing to it. There are threads in the Bewares pages that show you how clever they can be at snaring people.
 

CathleenT

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This is an enormous question, or group of questions, and the real problem is there are multiple correct answers, depending on your end goal.

Writing to market is normally done by self-publishers, and it's...kind of three years ago now. I think. I haven't logged into kboards in a while, so maybe it's still going on, but if it is, it's not as big as it used to be.

Understand that what I'm talking about here is SFF. If you write Romance, any subgenre, I think they're still writing themselves ragged trying to get out as many books as possible every year. It's a wicked hamster wheel to hop onto, but people still do.

But in fantasy, I've noticed a little backlash in reviews (finally!). The problem is that if you write gaming scenarios in 2017, followed by sexy shifter stories in 2018 and lit RPG (whatever that is) in 2019, you don't end up with a cohesive body of work. Whenever I find an author I really like, I tend to read their backlist. But there's no reason to do that with authors who chase trends. Their backlist is too fragmented.

I'd advise deciding what you want to write for the next 20 years. Noblebright fantasy? Alien sci-fi? Dystopia? Thrillers? Paranormal? Romance? Make sure you really like it, enough to play in that space for a career. And then write that.

Self-pub vs. trade is a whole other discussion, and that would affect your decisions as well. In trade, instead of deciding what space you'll work in, you get the space they have. OTOH, you'll get paid up front, which is not the case in SP. I chose SP. Talk to someone else, and they'll tell you trade is the only way to go. Some have found a way to combine the two.

The way to solve that debate is to decide which means more to you--absolute control over your work (go SP), or having the validation of a trade house being willing to bet some time and money on you. Different writers have different responses to those parameters.
 

clawyer80

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Thanks for the replies. Everything you guys are saying makes sense. Now I understand why it can be difficult to get an agent. Since the reputable ones only make money if the writer does, they have to be more selective about who they throw their lot in with.

I'll check out some of the threads on the sub-forum you all mentioned.
 

Maryn

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It's also worth a mention that one of the absolutely free ways to get your manuscript in the best shape it can be is to get critique partners and later, qualified beta readers. You get critique when you know it's imperfect and still needs work. Betas are for when you think you have a polished manuscript ready to submit. Good critique and beta reads are priceless and free at the same time.

Maryn, who doesn't beta much after being burned too many times
 

Cephus

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Thanks for the replies. Everything you guys are saying makes sense. Now I understand why it can be difficult to get an agent. Since the reputable ones only make money if the writer does, they have to be more selective about who they throw their lot in with.

I'll check out some of the threads on the sub-forum you all mentioned.

It just means your work has to be up to snuff. They are not going to take on anyone that they're not pretty sure they can sell and that's the ultimate name of the game: sales.
 

clawyer80

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It's also worth a mention that one of the absolutely free ways to get your manuscript in the best shape it can be is to get critique partners and later, qualified beta readers. You get critique when you know it's imperfect and still needs work. Betas are for when you think you have a polished manuscript ready to submit. Good critique and beta reads are priceless and free at the same time.

Maryn, who doesn't beta much after being burned too many times

I've honestly been looking some readers like that. I've let a couple people read my first novel and received positive feedback. They are just casual readers though, not the type of people that can really give me technical guidance. I'll check out the Beta Reader subforum on here.

Thanks
 
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frimble3

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I know you need 50 posts to post a chunk of work on the 'Share your work' forum, don't know about 'Beta Readers', but as a disinterested dabbler, I'd suggest you read widely in both and see if other people are having issues and getting advice that might be valid for your work, that might make you think of changes, and if nothing else, will help you realise that you are not alone in wanting to improve.
Also, when reading crits, stop at intervals and ask yourself, "How would I like it/respond if they talked about my work this way?"
Easier to think of this while it's in the abstract, rather than if it's your actual work on the line.