My fantasy hiring scenario

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Borad

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I don't want to be judged solely by showing my past work or my education or employment history. People use edited clippings as writing samples, right? WTH is that, there's all levels of editing and some can make crap into something good. I want to be locked in a room (after coronavirus) with a bunch of "more qualified" candidates where we'll be tested. Give us something of 5-10 pages to summarize in half the pages (non-fiction), or to edit substantially if we see fit (I'm not a grammar expert and I'm not claiming I'd be best at that). I'd want all day though. They should serve lunch in that same room. I'd even do two days in the room if bedding is supplied. I'd want to be graded by more than one expert. Preferably they wouldn't consult with each other. I know that panels of judges in court try to get their opinions to concur with each other but I'm looking for accurate opinions, not the lack of controversy.

The NY Academy of Science had a writing test for interns. I'd love that, but I can't be an intern. I'd take one just to be considered as a volunteer though, then they'd see more of my work if I'm allowed to volunteer and I'd at least have a reference.

Anyone know of other organizations that give writing tests for writing jobs?
 

Borad

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And I saw my "there's." I want to see them reject me because of my "there's," like that will benefit the reader. You want a "there are"? OK, there are millions of writers who would use "there are" yet hardly any write as well as me. Writing's more complicated than that, Johnny! I imagine my interviewer being a Johnny.
 

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Your interviewer will probably be a Jennifer.

What criteria do you imagine will be used to select candidates for this test? Or do you propose it be open to anyone who applies and is able to get to the testing site?
 

Borad

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Your interviewer will probably be a Jennifer.

What criteria do you imagine will be used to select candidates for this test? Or do you propose it be open to anyone who applies and is able to get to the testing site?

I don't know but I'd pay for the opportunity to take the test for consideration for employment and/or a grade or evaluation in writing. I think I found some writing oriented certification program a couple of years ago but there was something I didn't like about it. I think it was both the cost and the material I'd have to learn. I'd pay a couple hundred dollars for just a 1-2 day test with no outside help possible.
 

mccardey

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I don't know but I'd pay for the opportunity to take the test for consideration for employment and/or a grade or evaluation in writing. I think I found some writing oriented certification program a couple of years ago but there was something I didn't like about it. I think it was both the cost and the material I'd have to learn. I'd pay a couple hundred dollars for just a 1-2 day test with no outside help possible.

Is it the test, or the job you want? Because if it's just for the fun of testing (and the bragging rights when the answer to 80% of people* can't pass this quiz, can you? turns out to be Why yes! Yes, I can! ) then there are literally a gazillion testing sites on the Internet. Very fun for cold nights with a glass of wine.

If it's employment, things are tougher :(


*80% of people are under five or over 90 or don't speak English or don't have computers or don't do tests on the internet etc etc -
 
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I've been puzzling about the writing test for interns. Is it a proficiency test like the International English Language Testing System (IELTS)?
 

Borad

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I've been puzzling about the writing test for interns. Is it a proficiency test like the International English Language Testing System (IELTS)?

The webpage with that information was here. It's not even in the Internet Archive. It may have been for the Science Writing Associates Program, not internships. There's still a link to the page here, top right, with the link text "Apply to the Science Writing Associates Program Deadline: Dec 16, 2019."

I contacted the Editor-in-Chief/Chief Science Officer to ask if it's possible I could take the test. He forwarded my email to someone "who should know" who never got back to me. If the someone had, I might have replied with my offer to pay to take the test.
 

Borad

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Is it the test, or the job you want? Because if it's just for the fun of testing (and the bragging rights when the answer to 80% of people* can't pass this quiz, can you? turns out to be Why yes! Yes, I can! ) then there are literally a gazillion testing sites on the Internet. Very fun for cold nights with a glass of wine.

If it's employment, things are tougher :(

It would have to be authoritative, with more than one expert reading my writing, with no option to take it at home where you could ask a friend for help. I'd pay for such a test even if it's not for a job, as long as it's graded somehow.
 

Borad

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I've been puzzling about the writing test for interns. Is it a proficiency test like the International English Language Testing System (IELTS)?

From what I remember, you had to listen to a speaker and write a report.
 

mccardey

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It would have to be authoritative, with more than one expert reading my writing, with no option to take it at home where you could ask a friend for help. I'd pay for such a test even if it's not for a job, as long as it's graded somehow.
But is it for a job, or just to get a sense of your level? If it's the second, I'm sure you can pay those - if you want to. I just don't know how useful it would be. I think it's probably a bit like IQ tests etc - only relevant to you if YOU REALLY SCORE HIGHLY!!!

Which is to say - basically nonsense.

A good test of your writing is to write.
 

Borad

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But is it for a job, or just to get a sense of your level? If it's the second, I'm sure you can pay those - if you want to. I just don't know how useful it would be. I think it's probably a bit like IQ tests etc - only relevant to you if YOU REALLY SCORE HIGHLY!!!

Which is to say - basically nonsense.

A good test of your writing is to write.

Yeah, it's to get a job, somehow. I'd like to cite the results, or it could help me get a job with whoever's administering the test even if that's not stated as being possible. Theoretically, I guess I'd also be interested in having an accurate assessment even if it doesn't help me find a job but how can that even be? I'd really want it to be a meaningful assessment, and that intrinsically should be usable as a credit of some sort on my resume.
 

mccardey

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Yeah, it's to get a job, somehow. I'd like to cite the results, or it could help me get a job with whoever's administering the test even if that's not stated as being possible. Theoretically, I guess I'd also be interested in having an accurate assessment even if it doesn't help me find a job but how can that even be? I'd really want it to be a meaningful assessment, and that intrinsically should be usable as a credit of some sort on my resume.
I don't think it works like that, Borad. Testing people is pretty zero-sum, and writing (and people, and ability) isn't/aren't zero sum - and you don't need them to be, or want them to be. You want to be able to find the jobs, get on with the people, have the luck and hope for the best. That's all there is, really.

The rest really is fantasy - and it probably wouldn't work out the way that you think it would, anyway. Which is not to downgrade your ability, but just to say no-one is ever really the best at something, and best doesn't count for much in a general sense. Good at lots is better than best at one thing as it turns out...

ETA: Trying to find your way into employment is bloody hard. Best of luck to you with it.
 
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Helix

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I had a quick dig around to see if I could find out what the Science Writing Associate thingo was all about. It sounded interesting. Although it's no longer on the NYAS site, a job-hunting site still hosts a description of the position(s).

SUMMARYThe New York Academy of Sciences is pleased to announce the continuation of its Science Writing Associates Program, which gives New York metropolitan area graduate students and postdocs the opportunity to build their writing skills and credentials. Each Associate will attend up to three Academy symposia in their area of expertise and will contribute a 1,200-1,500 word event summary for each symposium, to be featured among the eBriefings on the Academy’s website: https://www.nyas.org/eBriefing. Associates will also submit ideas for social sharing to promote each eBriefing they write.

eBriefings are unique multimedia presentations that include meeting summaries written by science writers and scientists, a selection of speakers’ slides and audio, and links to other related information. This material is valuable to specialists as well as to the general scientific community worldwide. eBriefings are viewed by thousands of visitors to our website each month and are also shared extensively on social media.

Science Writing Associates will be credited with authorship of the eBriefings they write and will receive $150.00 per symposium for their contribution. All symposia will take place at our conference center in New York City.

Areas of coverage include: Life and Medical Sciences; Environmental Science; Nutrition; and Science Education, Professional Development, and Public Policy.

And


Applicants must be currently enrolled in a Masters, PhD, or postdoctoral program and have expertise in one of the areas of coverage outlined above. Demonstrated broad scientific perspective and experience with scientific writing a plus. Must be eligible to work in the U.S. and must have permission to do off-campus work for payment. Non-U.S. students must submit an I-20 form completed by your school/university that authorizes you to work off-campus.

Plus

Applications must include a resume and cover letter. The application, submitted as a single PDF or Microsoft Word file, should contain: (i) your resume, (ii) a letter describing your area of research expertise and writing experience, (iii) a 300-400-word writing assignment (details below), and (iv) two suggested tweets that might encourage users to read the summary included in your writing assignment.
 

Borad

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...job-hunting site still hosts a description [/URL]of the position(s)...

Good detective work! Yes, that's how I remember it from the page that no longer exists. If I were technically eligible I would have applied through intended means the first time I saw it instead of waiting, trying to review the page again months later, and emailing a guy. It came closest to what I wanted, yet so far.
 

Borad

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Applicants must be currently enrolled in a Masters, PhD, or postdoctoral program and have expertise in one of the areas of coverage outlined above.

BTW, I've done volunteer writing for a PhD and someone with a Master's degree. The one with the Master's is the one whos quote I mentioned having to change in another thread. The one with the PhD I have much more experience with and was an extremely poor writer. Both got their degree in the UK and English wasn't either's native language, though the PhD claimed "fluency" or something like that in English.
 
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mccardey

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Is "volunteer writing" the same as beta- reading?
 
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Helix

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I don't know if that would be sufficient experience for the NYAS position, because the criteria are quite rigid. Were I on the selection panel, I'd only look at applications from graduate students and postdocs in the research areas listed. Everyone else would get a 'thank you for your application, but we regret...'. Science communication jobs are over-supplied with applicants.
 

veinglory

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People are rarely hired based on abstract writey greatlyness. If they need you to write blog posts they want to see blog posts. If they need your to write a poem they want to see poems. if they need you to write news articles that will go through a normal editing process they want to see... etc. Being able to work with an editor may be far more important than being a genius.

- - - Updated - - -

People are rarely hired based on abstract writey greatlyness. If they need you to write blog posts they want to see blog posts. If they need your to write a poem they want to see poems. if they need you to write news articles that will go through a normal editing process they want to see... etc. Being able to work with an editor may be far more important than being a genius at some set of work-making skills.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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What Veinglory said. I don’t know what kind of jobs you’re aiming for, but I work for a newspaper and have been involved in hiring writers.

You’re right about clips. They’re edited and must be taken with a grain of salt. We do use them in the first round, but in the second round, we give people writing assignments that reflect what we would want from them. In one search for someone who had to write short things under tight deadlines, I used a timed in-office test. The results were illuminating. The person who got that job is an invaluable team member and still with us 10 years later.

But that was a very specific test of a very specific type of writing. I’ve been wishing all my life that there were a test that could tell me whether I’m a “good writer,” but there is not. I’ve won statewide awards for my articles and had starred reviews for my books, and I still feel like a pretty crappy writer half the time because I know there are always people out there who think my writing is crap, and I choose to focus on those people.

Which is a me problem, but you see what I’m getting at. Every type of writing career has different criteria and different ways to improve your resume and get your foot in the door. There’s no one single way (that I know of, anyway) to prove you can write.
 
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