1870's - "creased" by a black powder .44

I'm after a realistic assessment of a gunshot wound from a Colt Navy .44 1851 pattern, shooting with black powder. Assume a range of the width of a typical Western town street (bad guy comes out of door, good guy comes out of door across the street.

At the moment, I'm thinking of a grazing (need to avoid a fractured humerus) wound somewhere around the bottom of the deltoid muscle (no major arteries!).

Ignore the bad guy can't shoot worth beans - good guy "double taps" to the heart and one more for good measure when it looks like the bad guy might be moving.

Bad aim leads to the crease.

As best I can find out, the .44, even shooting black powder, has serious punch and a .44 bullet has real mass. In the right place, this is distinctly a "man stopper".

Soooooo, the question is can a crease "only" do some plowing or does even a glancing strike cause hydrostatic problems (e.g., the M16's "weeny" caliber is magnified by a very high muzzle velocity, hits aren't just holes but hammer blows that can cost an arm, etc.).

Immediately after being hit, good guy (GG) is shocky (well duh!) and has a loosely out of body sense of watching somebody getting a tourniquet, being sewn up, and fed laudanum.

Afterwards he's basically sliding in and out of consciousness for the rest of the day and the following day, and only really "wakes up" two days later.

How much of my proposed series of events is at lease plausible? I'm relating some of my supposition on a pair of not so nice bone fractures (skiing am de debil!), one requiring surgery. Also major elective surgery to the pituitary gland (through the nose - euwwww!).

I know the bulk of movies and books have hideous trauma sloughed off a few hours or a day later. Bull puckey, say I!

Bufty said:

No experience of being creased by an 1870's .44 or anything.

Just curious. Plausible/realistic-whatever. If the good guy takes a few days to recover - he takes a few days. I'm not going to query his recovery period. I'm not sure there would be a standard reaction to being creased. Would surely depend upon many factors including the good guy's health and physique, clothing, angle of contact... Do whatever is necessary for the story. It is fiction, isn't it.

The Man from Laramie had a bullet deliberately fired through the palm of his hand from inches away, and the story unfolded without undue focus on the medical aspects of the bloody mess in his hand.

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I want to produce plausible fiction.
The Laramie reference, for example, verges on the absurd. Ditto for any of the movies where the Lone Ranger or whoever nicks somebody in shooting a gun out of their (a highly implausible "hip shot").

I'm not looking for 100% correct, just "does this make sense"? I'd look up an ER doc, if they weren't up to their ears in COVID medicine.

Cindyt said:

The worst scenario would likely be an infection. You could have him cauterize the wound with a red hot knife. It's been done like that in movies and books.

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You're quite right about this. Pasteur's theory of germs (actually he's not the first one, just the one with the best press agent) is known and beginning to be passed around by the 1870's. The man who works on MC has some skill and is very much cleanliness is next to staying alive if not godliness. He does warn "you could do all the right things and still lose that arm or worse". However, having the MC go down with sepsis would ...um... curtail plot development.

ironmikezero said:

Forgive my confusion . . . The good guy is wounded, but not incapacitated (the grazing shot across his deltoid), and subsequently returns fire (double tap + one), putting his assailant down? So far, pretty plausible--one doesn't necessarily go into immediate shock, so he could still react immediately. In the aftermath, however, the good guy wouldn't need a tourniquet for timely first aid, just direct pressure. The bullet would likely have cut a furrow in his flesh and contaminated the wound with whatever else it pushed/dragged through (bits of cloth, etc.). Infection is very likely--therein lies your opportunity to prolong his recovery and put him (and any caretaker) through a personal hell . . .

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Good points! In the narration, MC does get turned by the creasing (or whatever - gotta get him turned a bit). MC has his Colt "open top" .44 out and cocked (single action - cock-fire, cock-fire, cock-fire). Bad guy comes out with hostage as shield, fires while shoving hostage away (never said bad guys are bright guys...). Shove maybe puts him off target - who cares. MC plans to shoot ASAP, so he's pretty much on autopilot before shock sets in.

Strike the tourniquet - walk-on ties something around MC's and says "slow the bleeding". Gee, smarter than I thought I was. I thought I was talking about a tourniquet - I'll sharpen that item a bit.

Good point about (in this case) sleeve cloth contaminating the wound. Ultimately MC's treated by a Civil War (what amounts to corpsman) with "combat trauma" experience. NTL, I'll work on the infection issue, which I've pretty much conveniently ignored.

MC conveniently wakes up and goes under as needed, and on the third day is finally (painfully) back into what's been going on.

BTW I count any puncturing wounds as having low odds of recovery for all of your reasons. Ignoring general sepsis, peritonitis, etc., it just doesn't suit my plans. Cracked femurs, even in current times, are nothing to be fooled with. Anything that smashes bone isn't trivial (I wound up with a tibula in 10 pieces - great x-ray pictures around somewhere, and I now have a nice selection of titanium screws on offer).

WeaselFire said:

If you need loss of consciousness, a grazing wound likely won't do it. You'd need blood loss and/or a concussion. Graze his skull or hit some serious blood pathways. In that time period, most common issue is infection, but a doctor in town could clean and bind the wound.

The ball from an 1851 doesn't expand like modern projectiles, but it does do damage. A grazing wound won't cause any expansion though. But your issue is you're trying to fit a wound to a gun and not trying to back track it from your story. If you need wooziness, occasional dizziness or even passing out but no lasting effects, you're going to need a wound that matches. The ammunition used is irrelevant to the story, especially since the 1851 Navy was a .36 caliber revolver. If you want a .44, go to the 1858 Remington in .44 percussion. Or the Colt SAA, a/k/a Peacemaker in .45 Colt.

As for the shootout, nobody did a double tap with any Wild West guns, they were single action and you can't fire two shots that quick. First shot he goes down, shot to the abdomen or chest. If he moves, a second shot at the head would not be unbelievable. In the real gunfights, the first man to shoot wasn't always the winner, he usually shot too quickly and the shot went wide, so a graze is believable even for a decent shot. The winner is the best aim, not the quickest draw.

Back to the wound. I assume you want nothing that puts him out of action, but need him occasionally unable to be in the picture. Try a grazing wound to the temple, even clipping the ear. Easily survivable but a concussion, even mild, can meet your needs. Doctor would bandage wound, head wounds like this are scalp wounds, bleed profusely and rarely get infected. Extremely rare would be a serious infection. Doctor would prescribe rest, not much more they could do at the time.

Good luck, hope it helps.

Jeff

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Whew - all great points.

MC carries the '71 Open top in .44. Agreed the .36 is the most common "Navy", I keep coming up with an 1851 Navy in .44. I'm hardly a shooter let alone gunsmith, but I don't see converting from .36 to .44. Or am I finding a modern (historically inaccurate) .44? I did see the notion of "Navy caliber is .36". Help me out here.

Anyway, what matters is does the graze send MC off to beddy-bye. I'll chew on the idea of a scalp injury (lots and lots of blood!). I'm a little nervous about concussions because I might talk myself into fretting about subsequent problems - I'll leave boosted odds of Alzheimers alone. [/ laugh]

MC has been coached by a pro. NTL "double tap" was a shorthand for the post here. MC does get two off quickly and the third comes only after seeing BG's arm move (coach says "shoot 'em til they're dead, or they'll shoot you dead"). Your point about SA v. DA is well taken. BTW were you the poster who pointed out that DA trigger pull is higher?

MC has his pistol out and cocked before seeing BG (whose location is 100% certain, and who's certain not to be open to negotiation). There's no pretense of "quick draw in the streets of Cheyenne". MC plans to shoot BG. Period. MC's first shot isn't from a draw, and he anticipates it. I promise he isn't using an Isosceles stance.

Speaking of stance - current doctrine is "face front" for maximum body armor protection. Do I have it right that standing sideways (smaller target), where possible, in the mid-late 1800's was common - preferred?

L.C. Blackwell said:

Infection by itself won't be all that quick to kick in. Say, at least 24 hours before there's anything noticeably nasty. Even a good case of sepsis takes a little while to get started. Also, if you simply grazed his arm, he'd douse it in whiskey, tie it up, and go off to play poker.

A concussion could leave him feeling a little dizzy, but unless he had something more serious going on in the head injury department, it's not likely he'd notice it for more than a few hours, and he'd be more likely to find it positional--i.e. dizzy when getting up, changing position--than constant.

About your only way to knock him on his back for 2-3 days without getting him nastily shot would be to give him that dizzy little concussion, make him stumble out of whatever door he's standing in, maybe fall down and have trouble getting his balance back. Meanwhile, your local snake-oil salesman/quack doctor offers to fix him up, stop the bleeding, etc. The quack hopes to make some money off him, so persuades him to go to bed, take laudanum, what-have-you. That way, you can keep him in bed and out of it as long as you like. Then, let his buddies start wondering what the quack is up to, and have "doc" high-tail it for the next town.

Presto, your hero wakes up. His wound may not hurt so much, but he'll be weak and uncomfortable enough for having been kept on drugs for so long.

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More and more, I think poor MC is due for a .36/.44 whack on the head. Yep, scalp wounds look a zillion times worse than they actually are - gotta keep the brain cool somehow...

The chain of events is MC takes one from BG, but MC is already coming up on target and meaning to do damage (and he's a better than average marksman - he's the MC so why not?). BG goes down (secondary player stuffs a fourth into BG). MC's girlfriend brings MC off the street. He drifts into out-of-body seeing himself being worked on (I recall reading similar accounts - this isn't the "go to the bright white light", just the brain doing odd things with trauma), is doped up with laudanum (opium) and... nighty-night. laudanum re-appears "as needed" and it's MC who says "no mas but I'll take some of my secret stash of "the good stuff" whisky.

Having periodic bouts of vertigo, I do know about the effects, oh my yes I do. Including the positional thing.

As posted earlier, his initial care is reasonably skilled for the period. After that, all he's got is a barber/semi-sorta doc, sorta "jaw breaker". Ouch.

Hmmmm.... maybe MC will enjoy double vision when viewing girlfriend. LOL

Great thanks for all of the above!

Out of curiosity, which was more common the Navy or Army version? The 1851's kick that bad?

Everybody gets a Colt of some flavor - personal bias. IMHO the lines, notably the grip, makes my heart go pitty-pat. At least in long guns, Henrys are allowed in addition to Winchester 66 (too early for the 73 to reach the lovely town of Clay Springs, AZ. Ditto for the DA '73 "Peacemaker").

Just for comparison, where do the .44 and .36 come out, for kick, relative to the standard military M1911 I carried? (Some days we were on good terms, some days I'd have a better chance of scoring by throwing the d*** thing - poor grouping that way, though.) Too bad we had to give up our 9 mm Walther P38's "borrowed" from the German Air Force (long story) until the Group's armory arrived from Ft. Sill (longer story).

Oops - I mentioned shootout in the streets of Cheyenne (could have said Kevin Klein vs. Brian Dennehy in Silverado - "Good bye Paden, Good bye Cobb", etc., etc., etc. AFAIK ludicrously removed from reality) as an example of not what the MC/BG encounter is. 15-10 ft. would be about right. Based on your advice, MC nails BG as BG parts MC's hair. Secondary player gets BG (figuratively) between the eyes. MC girlfriend gets MC out of street "SgtMaj Sullivan O'Rourke late of 21st Mississippi" and medical wizard (medium story) does magic for concussed MC who obligingly slips in and out of consciousness as required. Maybe BG should have thrown his six-shooter at MC?

(Besides, I don't know jack about Cheyenne - AZ I have a chance of getting things at least plausible - I hoped to visit Clay Springs, Show Low, etc. (primary setting) until COVID came along. Feh...)

BG background - BG & older son (Zeke) are rustlers, younger son Thad isn't (but law probably calls him, even if he stays home, an accomplice for knowing Pa & Zeke rustle). Anyway Zeke gets his lights punched out by MC. Zeke comes back with blood in his eye, waves gun at MC. Bye bye Zeke. Thad is too late to stop Zeke - MC sends Thad off to TX to avoid possible lynching (MC has heart of gold - LOL). BG thinks MC killed Zeke & Thad and comes to deal revenge. Bye bye BG.

About hammer down on empty chamber, assuming a hammer thong and, of course, hammer down, what's wrong with six rounds instead of five? Given your "almost always 'one and done'", having six rounds is pretty much "why bother". NTL where's the problem with six rounds in the wild and woolly west in the thrilling days of yesteryear?

@WeaselFire "Stance wasn't a concern in those days, guns were inaccurate enough that two guys standing six feet apart could unload five chambers (if you carried all six, the hammer would be down on a loaded chamber and the first bounce would shoot your toes off) and still miss each other entirely. At the 50 feet or so you're talking about, even experienced shooters could easily miss the 12" of body mass of the chest. Have your MC walk closer to the BG before delivering the coup de gras to the head."

Bounce?

WeaselFire said:

Jolt, bump, anu movement where the hammer would bounce up and back. And the Remington did have carry notches for the hammer, one reason it was chosen.

Background of the shooter may make the biggest difference in revolver choice. If he carried one in the war, he may want the same thing, or may still have it. There are a ton of variations on these, but few variations were commonly carried. Round versus angled grips made some difference in recoil, but mostly the shooters of the time just didn't handle a firearm very confidently or even try to control the muzzle rise. Recoil on a 1911 is different, it's straight back into the web of the hand by design, where the black powder revolvers had a lower hand hold that meant the gun pivoted.

You asked about wound treatment in a different post, it's relatively simple. The scalp wound bleeds and scabs up pretty quickly, a wad of cotton under a hat could even act as a bandage. A poultice was common for wounds, often tobacco, some herbs and maybe a little salt in a cloth sack or bundle. Bandages would be changed daily or so. Even a nasty infection on the scalp pretty much just ends with a nasty scar.

Jeff

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That much risk of hammer motion? Wow. Does a hammer thong change anything? I'm not clinging to "must have six" but trying understanding the risks. Related modern era question - IIRC five rounds and an empty chamber was the rule in many PD's. That always struck me as risky going up against who wasn't so worried about that rule. Most weapons are only fired on ranges, but not every one.
Same bounce risk? Something else?

I saw more than one "clear it" barrel with a .45 ACP hole in the screen. Oops.

No surprise if it the own got through The War of Northern Aggression or Late Unpleasantness toting whatever, assuming the didn't give it up, sure makes sense to "dance with the one whut ya brung".

Duh... of course the slide comes back, ready to nail the web of the unwary. Kinda like IIRC "Garand/M1 thumb". My M-14 was better behaved - could have scared heck out of deer in the area, I suppose. I wasn't dumb enough to find out. Did encounter a German NCO who had that thought in mind with a G3. Scary...

I forget how my damage progressed save I can find the scar if I look hard enough. Being in "helmets mandatory" Bermuda while wrapped up had a low fun quotient.

Otherwise, MC won't invest time looking for a grand jewel to put on the front of his "sultan's turban". LOL

Great thanks again from me, and Charlie Gordon says he's relieved but wants to wear something big to milk a pity party with girlfriend. Oh well...

FWIW, MC's vertigo has stopped, no double vision, no aphasia, and, aside from right around when the BG plowed a furrow in his scalp, his memory works. He does now have an aversion to hitting his head on walls when frustrated.

And all Colt '51 Navy's are now .36. MC's open top remains .44. Except someone with Connections set him up with a '73 .45. What else are friends for?

Great thanks for the help!

WeaselFire said:

Hammer thongs are for retention, not hammer safety. Doesn't take much of a bounce, even a hit on the back of the hammer will set the cap off. Have him carry as you wish, it's your story. Lost me completely here, I'm going to assume this rambling has nothing to do with your story about black powder revolvers. Jeff

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Assume MC now carries five rounds in the cylinder. BTW, in the 1870's was it a round, a bullet, or...? for the complete package from primer to lead thing up front?

Side topic: Web between thumb and finger refers to the M1911 and the slide and hammer coming back to catch the stupid, in that web, with a poor grip. I'm happy to say I never got caught that way. IIRC the Garand, and shoving rounds past the bolt, could occasionally produce a very painful "Garand thumb". If my M-14 had a similar slamming bolt trick, I don't remember it. Aside from being not light, it was too long to clear launch bunkers in the site I (and others) were guarding. Smacked the flash suppressor more than once on a blast door. Grr...

The only M-16's we saw belonged to a USAF unit where we had a familiarization "course". We learned which end the bullet came out of, and had fun busting cinder blocks. We said clever things about the "plastic gun": "If it's Mattel, it's swell." A good time was had by all. No mud to jam the thing up with.

TNX!