I need help understanding how to punctuate "so" as a conjunction.

Gregg Bell

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I get lost with restrictive vs non-restrictive, coordinate vs subordinate, and sometimes the grammar checker is calling for commas when I don't think they should be there, and before I know it, I'm brain dead. About the only thing I'm sure about is that when "so" is short for "so that" it doesn't need a comma.

Any tips for understanding this will be appreciated. And if you have the time (I realize there are a lot of sentences), could you tell me if the below sentences punctuated correctly? Thanks.


If the people are corrupt so is the government.


The militia missed their chance to kill me so now they’re attacking my people.


Oh, my staff can explain that better, Admiral, and they don’t want me misspeaking, so I’ll leave that to them.


We’ve received messages and a photo of the boy, so we know they have him, and we know he’s being held in the Everglades.


Now I’m sure you have plenty more questions, but trust me, Major Stoneman is going to be better qualified to answer so hold them for now.


Needless to say, the president considers getting Mack back safe and sound his top priority so we need to get a move on.


Now hit the hay so we’re ready to go first thing in the morning.


We have reason to believe the boy’s being held on a chickee hut. But on a chickee hut over water so he’s unable to escape because of the alligators and venomous snakes.


This one may be older, but with a twin turbo 710 horsepower engine and a four-blade whirlwind propeller, she’ll go plenty fast enough for what we need. But yep, no seat belts so you want to be sure to hang on to something.


I don’t want to get too close or linger, so it’ll just be a quick look-see.


They didn’t feel like lugging the shotguns so they stopped at Stoneman’s office to pick up .22 revolvers—they were in a drawer in his desk—filled their canteens and set out.


But like you said, we have no airboat, so what can we do?


Now to be clear so I ain’t wasting yours and my time, you said the president has been sent messages and a photo of this little Mack fella?


Earl yanked on its body, but there was absolutely no give, so he grabbed its tail and was able to unwind it, smashing his wrists and forearms on the canopy as he did.


We have some leads, some promising ones, but we’ve been terribly hampered by not having the airboat, so what can you tell us?


Good thing the shotguns are still here, but the ammo is gone. So the only shells we have are in the magazines.


Yeah, and you’re mucking it up so I can’t see where I’m stepping.


I’ve cut it up in chunks, so it should cook faster, but it’s still going to take a while.


Was this all about getting reSEALed so she could avenge her parents’ deaths?
 

Roxxsmom

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So is a coordinating conjunction, along with and, for, nor, but, or, yet, and so.

You put a comma in front of a coordinating conjunction if they separate two independent clauses. An independent clause is a clause that would stand alone as a sentence.

Mary loves her dog immensely, so she always brings him with her on vacation.

You wouldn't need one if the second clause isn't independent.

Mary loves her dog immensely so always brings him with her on vacation.

"always brings him with her on vacation" wouldn't create a complete, non-fragmentary sentence on its own, so it's not an independent clause.

The rule about restrictive and non restrictive clauses is a bit more complex, and more frequently broken nowadays, even in trade-published books. Restrictive clauses cannot be removed from a sentence without changing the sentence's core meanings. Nonrestrictive clauses are extra information and can be removed without changing the sentences core meaning. You use commas to set nonrestrictive clauses off from the rest of the sentence

Mary, who loves her dog greatly, always takes him with her on vacation.

You could remove "who loves her dog greatly" without changing the core meaning of the sentence--Mary always takes her dog on vacation.

Sometimes it gets confusing.

The boy who had red hair cried

vs

The boy, who had red hair, cried.

Both are grammatically correct, but they mean different things.

In the first sentence the fact that it was the boy with red hair that cried is the core focus of the sentence. Not the boy with blond hair or brown hair. The boy with red hair.

In the second, the core meaning is that the boy cried, and he just happened to have red hair as well. This rule gets screwed up a lot, and I do hate having to read a sentence a couple of times to figure out what the author means when they mis-punctuate.

I'm trying to think of how the restrictive and nonrestrictive clause issue would fit into commas with the word "so," however. I guess if you have a nonrestrictive clause that starts with the word "so," you'd need a comma.

Looking at your examples:

If the people are corrupt so is the government. I'm not 100% sure about this one. You use commas with "if-then" statements. "If the people are corrupt, then so is the government" would be correct. But in the absence of the implied "then," the comma may be optional? Maybe an editor could weigh in.


The militia missed their chance to kill me, so now they’re attacking my people. "Now they're attacking my people" is an independent clause.


Oh, my staff can explain that better, Admiral, and they don’t want me misspeaking, so I’ll leave that to them. The comma after the "oh" is optional, but the rest is fine.


We’ve received messages and a photo of the boy, so we know they have him, and we know he’s being held in the Everglades. Correct.


Now I’m sure you have plenty more questions, but trust me, Major Stoneman is going to be better qualified to answer, so hold them for now.


Needless to say, the president considers getting Mack back safe and sound his top priority, so we need to get a move on.


Now hit the hay so we’re ready to go first thing in the morning. A comma would be correct here, but sometimes commas are treated as optional when the second independent clause is very short and is a logical extension of the first thought. I tend to err on the side of using them, though.


We have reason to believe the boy’s being held on a chickee hut. But on a chickee hut over water, so he’s unable to escape because of the alligators and venomous snakes.


This one may be older, but with a twin turbo 710 horsepower engine and a four-blade whirlwind propeller, she’ll go plenty fast enough for what we need. But yep, no seat belts, so you want to be sure to hang on to something. Note that this might be another case where the comma could be omitted, even though it's technically correct to have it. Especially if this is representing dialog and you want to get the sense of someone speaking quickly without any kind of pause.


I don’t want to get too close or linger, so it’ll just be a quick look-see. This looks fine.


They didn’t feel like lugging the shotguns, so they stopped at Stoneman’s office to pick up .22 revolvers—they were in a drawer in his desk—filled their canteens, and set out. This might be a place where I'd consider using parentheses instead of m-dashes, because then you could include the comma that would ordinarily be placed between the list elements. I inserted a "serial" comma before the terminal "and" in the list, though it's not strictly necessary for clarity here (but many US editors prefer their use, and technically they probably filled their canteens before they set out, not simultaneously with setting out).


But like you said, we have no airboat, so what can we do?


Now to be clear so I ain’t wasting yours and my time, you said the president has been sent messages and a photo of this little Mack fella? This is fine.

Earl yanked on its body, but there was absolutely no give, so he grabbed its tail and was able to unwind it, smashing his wrists and forearms on the canopy as he did. Fine


We have some leads, some promising ones, but we’ve been terribly hampered by not having the airboat, so what can you tell us? Fine.


Good thing the shotguns are still here, but the ammo is gone. So the only shells we have are in the magazines. In this case, the author made a choice to start a sentence with a coordinating conjunction to set it off more fully from the previous sentence. Our grammar-school teachers may not have encouraged this, but it's perfectly fine to do so. Like most things, it could get annoying if done too frequently.


Yeah, and you’re mucking it up so I can’t see where I’m stepping. There could be a comma before the "so" here, but this is another one of those places where the second independent clause is very short and follows very closely on the first thought, so it can be dispensed with.


I’ve cut it up in chunks, so it should cook faster, but it’s still going to take a while. This is fine.


Was this all about getting reSEALed so she could avenge her parents’ deaths? I think it's okay to leave the comma out here because "she could avenge her parent's death" isn't really being treated so much as an independent clause, though it technically is, but as the rationale for the previous clause.

I find some of these norms and rules hard to articulate, so if someone with editorial experience and better vocabulary for explaining things says I am wrong, that's fine.
 

Ari Meermans

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Use a comma when joining two independent clauses.

Don't use a comma when joining an independent clause and a dependent clause
.

If the people are corrupt so is the government. [No comma. Probably confusing if you're thinking "if, then", but no comma before "so". Corrected below.]

The militia missed their chance to kill me so now they’re attacking my people. [No comma before "so".]

Oh, my staff can explain that better, Admiral, and they don’t want me misspeaking, so I’ll leave that to them. [Comma.]

We’ve received messages and a photo of the boy, so we know they have him, and we know he’s being held in the Everglades. [Comma.]

Now I’m sure you have plenty more questions, but trust me, Major Stoneman is going to be better qualified to answer so hold them for now. [No comma before "so".]

Needless to say, the president considers getting Mack back safe and sound his top priority so we need to get a move on. [Comma.]

Now hit the hay so we’re ready to go first thing in the morning. [Comma.]

We have reason to believe the boy’s being held on a chickee hut. But on a chickee hut over water so he’s unable to escape because of the alligators and venomous snakes. [Comma.]

This one may be older, but with a twin turbo 710 horsepower engine and a four-blade whirlwind propeller, she’ll go plenty fast enough for what we need. But yep, no seat belts so you want to be sure to hang on to something. [No comma before "so".]

I don’t want to get too close or linger, so it’ll just be a quick look-see. [Comma.]

They didn’t feel like lugging the shotguns so they stopped at Stoneman’s office to pick up .22 revolvers—they were in a drawer in his desk—filled their canteens and set out. [Comma.]

But like you said, we have no airboat, so what can we do? [Comma.]

Now to be clear so I ain’t wasting yours and my time, you said the president has been sent messages and a photo of this little Mack fella? [Comma.]

Earl yanked on its body, but there was absolutely no give, so he grabbed its tail and was able to unwind it, smashing his wrists and forearms on the canopy as he did. [Comma.]

We have some leads, some promising ones, but we’ve been terribly hampered by not having the airboat, so what can you tell us? [Comma.]

Good thing the shotguns are still here, but the ammo is gone. So the only shells we have are in the magazines. [? (I guess you mean after "so". Yeah, no comma after "so".]

Yeah, and you’re mucking it up so I can’t see where I’m stepping. [Comma, unless you're implying "so that I can't see where I'm stepping".]

I’ve cut it up in chunks, so it should cook faster, but it’s still going to take a while. [Comma.]

Was this all about getting reSEALed so she could avenge her parents’ deaths? [No comma. (Assuming "so that").]
 
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Roxxsmom

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Roxxsmom

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Use a comma when joining two independent clauses.

Don't use a comma when joining an independent clause and a dependent clause
.

The militia missed their chance to kill me so now they’re attacking my people. [No comma before "so".]

Why wouldn't there be one here? "Now they're attacking my people." is an independent clause.

These are the kinds of rule exceptions I can never quite grasp.
 

Ari Meermans

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There's a lot of nuance in some of these examples. That sentence is one of those tricky situations like "so that". One of the hardest "feels" to get wrt punctuation is in learning to interrogate the exact meaning of a sentence. In this case, the entire sentence is presented as one complete thought.

ETA: This is one of the reasons I keep telling everyone a sentence can be 100% grammatically correct and still not convey the meaning you're after; iow, punctuation can enhance or flat-out change your meaning.
 
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I would agree with Roxxsmom on that example.

OTOH, I would also put a comma in the very first sentence. The "then" is invisible, but it's the same rule as "if, then." If the people are corrupt, so is the government. If the people are corrupt, then so is the government.
 

Ari Meermans

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Yeah, you're right on that first sentence. It absolutely is an "if, then" situation.

The other sentence, "The militia missed their chance to kill me so now they’re attacking my people", I stand firm on because it is one complete thought.
 

Ari Meermans

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It was just pointed out that the rule to join two independent clauses with a comma leaves the door wide open for a comma splice. Yepper, it does. See, this is the thing about hard-and-fast rules and knowing when to apply them and when not to. That's why exceptions exist and, I gotta say, exceptions are not that easy to keep track of and they do complicate matters.

ETA: I can do better than that. Okay then—when you join two independent clauses with a comma but without a conjunction, you have a comma splice on your hands. How's that?
 
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Maryn

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Works for me, Ari!

Maryn, who has a torrid love affair with commas
 

Chase

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I can do better than that. Okay then—when you join two independent clauses with a comma but without a conjunction, you have a comma splice on your hands. How's that?

Perfect. Spot on. I run into lots of comma splices using "then" and other conjunctive adverbs as coordinating conjunctions (and, or nor, but, for, yet, so).

I blame an irrational fear and loathing of semicolons. :greenie
 

Gregg Bell

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Thanks everyone! And please take any of my disagreements with you as me searching to understand things, rather than thinking I know more than you. (I don't!)

@Roxxsmom. Thanks very much. Your explanations and examples for coordinating conjunctions and restrictive vs non-restrictive clauses was very helpful. And thank you for all the line by line take on things and the explanations. (I think the suggestion of parentheses over em-dashes and adding the terminal comma was particularly well observed.) And thank you for the link. I bookmarked it. I agreed with all your takes except the ones where the "so" may have implied "so that." Specifically:

Now hit the hay so we’re ready to go first thing in the morning. A comma would be correct here, but sometimes commas are treated as optional when the second independent clause is very short and is a logical extension of the first thought. I tend to err on the side of using them, though.

I would say that there should be no comma because "so" is implying "so that." I would say a comma here would be incorrect.

Same goes for:

Was this all about getting reSEALed so she could avenge her parents’ deaths? I think it's okay to leave the comma out here because "she could avenge her parent's death" isn't really being treated so much as an independent clause, though it technically is, but as the rationale for the previous clause.


@Ari Meermans
Thanks very much for all feedback, especially about the "so" implying "so that." I think with that it is a question of meaning. For example with this entry: Yeah, and you’re mucking it up so I can’t see where I’m stepping.

Yeah, and you’re mucking it up, so I can’t see where I’m stepping. This is an observation that the water is getting cloudy because of what the other person is doing.

Yeah, and you’re mucking it up so I can’t see where I’m stepping. This is the person saying that what the person is doing has an aspect of intentionality in it. iow it could be:

Yeah, and you’re mucking it up so that I can’t see where I’m stepping.

Now I’m sure you have plenty more questions, but trust me, Major Stoneman is going to be better qualified to answer so hold them for now. [No comma before "so".] Why? Is not "hold them for now" and independent clause or is this beause the independent clause is so short?

Now hit the hay so we’re ready to go first thing in the morning. [Comma.] I would say a comma would be incorrect here because "so" implies "so that."

Now to be clear so I ain’t wasting yours and my time, you said the president has been sent messages and a photo of this little Mack fella? [Comma.]
You want the comma because it's an introductory clause? Because "Now to be clear" isn't an independent clause. And since "Now to be clear" is so short couldn't the comma be left out?

The militia missed their chance to kill me so now they’re attacking my people. [No comma before "so".]
I would say this needs a comma. The "so that" implication is a bit of a stretch here.




I liked this quote from Blaise Pascal. "Words differently arranged have different meanings, and meanings differently arranged have a different effect."