What Makes A Scene 'Unnecessary' In A Novel?

Prophecies

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Messages
58
Reaction score
8
My first draft is developing, and I've noticed that there are plot points I'd like to expand: certain relationships need build-up, my MC needs stronger motivation in the first act. So, I'm adding in more scenes... but there is a wiff of aimlessness to it. Can a scene exist for just thematic and character-revealing reasons, even if it doesn't move the story along, or force the characters to change? I like the idea of my readers spending time with my characters before all hell breaks loose. But idk, I have a weird 'must need permission' mentality with writing (in general, no matter the subjet matter). Which is strange, because I'm usually quick to defend another author's right for expression and experimentation.

So my question is: What makes a scene unnecessary to the story? Is it the 'purpose' of the scene, or is it something more subtle and harder to discern? What should authors look out for when reading their first and second drafts?

I outline my scenes in advance, and I have planned 74 scenes. Maybe it'll help creating a spreadsheet or a graph about the 'intention' of a scene.

Thanks for any responses, and glad it's Friday ;)
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
I guess it just needs a better reason to be there than to not be there. Being entertaining is enough reason to be their unless it is confusing, distracting, just makes the book too dang long etc
 

Woollybear

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
9,704
Location
USA
It makes me grin, Prophecies, how much you are engaging on the forums.

Anyway, this will probably be some matter of opinion. Mine overlaps others but not entirely.

IMO, write the scenes to learn what you need to learn about the characters and the story. Write all the scenes you want to write. All the characters you want to write. You are learning through the process.

Then, go back and figure out what each scene actually accomplishes. Then, see if you can take that itty-bitty 'thing' and work it into a different, more important scene.

What this will accomplish is several fold. Tighter, punchier writing. You will almost certainly cut the drag and sag in this process. Also, your words and scenes will do double and triple and quadruple duty. A sentence or paragraph that deepens character, advances the plot, establishes relationship, provides context, shades emotion, builds motivation--that's a way better paragraph or sentence that only accomplishes one of those things.

Also IMO, writing is rewriting. So write with the expectation that you will re-write it.
 

talktidy

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
896
Reaction score
86
Location
Fabulous Sweyn's Eye
I am hardly an expert, but first draft territory is where you explore and get a grip on the story. There are bound to be story threads that start and peter out and have to be pruned -- in my work, anyway -- while there are other elements that better fit in the story and deserve to be expanded. That is what subsequent drafts are for.

Some of my most fluid bits of writing I realised would not gel with where the story had to go, but I shrugged and wrote them anyway, because it made a pleasant change to see words being put on the page with such relative ease and my writing needs all the practice it can get.
 

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
10,642
Reaction score
14,865
Location
Massachusetts
Disclaimer: I don't know what I'm doing most of the time.

My first draft is developing, and I've noticed that there are plot points I'd like to expand: certain relationships need build-up, my MC needs stronger motivation in the first act. So, I'm adding in more scenes... but there is a wiff of aimlessness to it.

If you, the author, fear that the narrative is aimless, I'd pay attention to that. Your beta-readers may not agree, but it's worth reassuring yourself first. (If your betas think the narrative is aimless, I'd definitely pay attention to that.)

As for your general questions, well... It depends. :tongue You'll probably find general advice to "cut anything that doesn't move the story forward". But... it depends.

Can a scene exist for just thematic and character-revealing reasons, even if it doesn't move the story along, or force the characters to change? I like the idea of my readers spending time with my characters before all hell breaks loose.

I think the danger is that readers lose interest before all hell breaks loose. Give them a hook to know why they care to keep reading. A common mistake for new writers seems to be an insistence that all this world- and/or character-building they've done in their head (or on spreadsheets) gets laid out on the page before the real action starts. Don't do that. ;)

So my question is: What makes a scene unnecessary to the story?

If you drop the scene, does it change the story in any fundamental way? Does it change the plot? Or a character's motivation?

All "rules" are bendy, of course. Some authors have a voice that goes a long ways towards papering over pacing issues for me. For some of those, their scenes are worth reading even if not much really happens.
 

Maryn

Sees All
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,444
Reaction score
25,464
Location
Snow Cave
My own rule is that if a scene does not advance the plot or illuminate character, it has no place in my work.

But I agree that first drafts are where you are free to throw things at the page and see what sticks.

Maryn, deleting a huge sex scene with regret
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,212
Reaction score
15,821
Location
Australia.
write the scenes to learn what you need to learn about the characters and the story. Write all the scenes you want to write. All the characters you want to write. You are learning through the process.

Then, go back and figure out what each scene actually accomplishes. Then, see if you can take that itty-bitty 'thing' and work it into a different, more important scene.
This. It's a perfectly good way of writing, though sometimes it feels a bit - inefficient. In general, when you're finished, a scene should expose something of the character, move the story forward, support your theme and do a few other things if possible. But in the early stages, writing a lot of stuff down is how you discover and hone theme, and come to understand your characters and find the minutae of the story. So don't fret. Just think, and write, and get to the end and then decide whether you revise, redraft or start editing. And so it goes on.

Easy-peasy.
 
Last edited:

katfeete

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
165
Reaction score
146
Location
In the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia
Website
www.sunsetgrillcomic.com
I actively avoid thinking things like “does this scene even have a point” in first draft, because at that point in the process I am wrong 9 times out of 10.

In revision I look at each scene and ask myself two questions:

  1. What is the scene’s purpose? How does it move the story forward, either directly (via change) or indirectly (by laying groundwork for future scenes)?
  2. What is the scene’s payoff? What reward does it offer readers?

In late-book scenes purpose and payoff are often the same, as the reader gets invested in the story and the pace accelerates; but in early scenes, where the writer is still setting up place cards and shuffling the silverware to the right spots, they can be quite different. Authors fixating on purpose and forgetting about payoff is, IMO, a far greater cause of early-book reader boredom than “aimless” scenes (which are more of an author’s problem).

I’d summarize payoff as getting an emotional reaction from the reader. In my early comic I leaned heavily on humor — if the last panel made them laugh, no one was going to think the page was a waste of time. Later I learned to expand that to the more general reaction of surprise (of which laughter is one expression.) People like to laugh; they like characters and situations that surprise them. Curiosity is massively useful, especially early book, as long as it’s paired with a later scene evoking its sister emotion of satisfaction (pose the question, then answer it). In SFF wonder is also a great tool. The bigger emotions — fear, pain, grief, joy — are usually more useful in the later scenes, but they can be powerful openers in the right hands.

A scene with neither purpose nor payoff I scrap. A scene with payoff but no purpose either gets a purpose or gets scrapped; a scene with purpose but no payoff likewise, except if I scrap it I note down the stuff I’ve lost and find somewhere else to put it. If I can give a scene multiple purposes and payoffs, all the better. My scenes tend to start off very sprawling and become gradually more dense as I find ways to combine them.

But all of that is Revision Me’s problem. First Draft Me’s only job is to write. :)
 

The Black Prince

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
311
Reaction score
37
Location
Australia
Website
www.adriandeans.com
My own rule is that if a scene does not advance the plot or illuminate character, it has no place in my work.

But I agree that first drafts are where you are free to throw things at the page and see what sticks.

I was going to say exactly this.

When my first novel was accepted, the draft was 230k words but the publisher said: I really like it, but I'm only publishing 160k words - it's up to you to cut it down. That was really difficult but the process taught me so much about identifying the spine of the story and staying as close as possible. I wound up deleting the funniest scene in the book because it wasn't connected enough to the spine to stay. I hated cutting it out but I got rid of ten pp in one go, so...worth it.

We eventually compromised on 190k words, but if I were to re-edit the book today - ten years later - I've no doubt I'd easily get it down to 160k.
 

Lakey

professional dilettante
Staff member
Super Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
2,714
Reaction score
3,965
Location
New England
What a wonderful discussion. I agree with all of it, but I especially appreciate katfeete's formulation of purpose and payoff, and especially the keen observation that these are evaluated differently at different parts of the book. A nice bit of characterization and foundation-laying that works well in chapter 2 would be a pacing-ruining derail if you try to put it right before the climax.

I also want to second Patty's remark about making your scenes do more than one thing. Patty and I both commented on this idea recently at the sentence level, but it's also true at the scene level. This is the key idea: If you've written one scene that develops character, and another that advances the plot, see if you can merge them down into one scene. Try to make the way your characters engage with plot-driving events also reveal their character.

In one of my favorite craft books, Stein on Writing (review linked in my signature below), Sol Stein offers a technique for revision: Identify the weakest scene, and cut it -- don't try to fix it, don't try to strengthen it, just cut it. If material in that scene is needed for the rest of the book to make sense, find another place to work in that material. Now, as Patty notes in her post, your book is tighter and stronger, because you've cut a flabby scene. Stein now suggests you repeat this process until there really are no more weak scenes to cut. I've used this technique for the novel I'm working on, and I've also even used it for short stories, where its benefits are even more immediate and dramatic. Very empowering!

But -- this is the final point I want to add my +1 to -- this is all part of a revision process, not a generative process. If you are writing a first draft, then you are still identifying who your characters are and what their stories will be. (I believe this is true even if you are a hardcore plotter -- even plotters are likely to find surprises while writing the first draft.) So if you are in a drafting stage, then just write -- all this stuff about identifying weak scenes and combining them into multi-purpose scenes, that comes later, when you've are revising a completed manuscript.

Finally, an exercise that might be helpful here is to take an excellent book you know very well -- one you have read several times is ideal -- and read it again, giving thought to what each scene is doing. Because you know the story well, you can recognize the multiple purposes of each scene -- "This scene establishes character trait X, which will be really important later because Y; it also lays the foundation for plot event Z that I know is coming soon, and it introduces metaphor W which sounds over and over again throughout the book." Give it a try!

:e2coffee:
 
Last edited:

mewellsmfu

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
488
Reaction score
194
+1 to Maryn's comments. I cut a lot of detail during revision. What's left is more muscular and interesting.

One never-fail clue that you need to chop a scene or passage is when you find yourself skimming through it (or if your betas do). Don't write "skim-worthy" fiction.
 

surrly

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2016
Messages
54
Reaction score
51
Everyone has such good advice here. And there's many ways to approach it.

Personally, I put everything in my first draft that feels necessary (whether it is or not). I don't judge as I write it. I don't evaluate it either (is this good? Is this right? Should I take this out? No. Forget all that.) I just put it in there. Then, when I'm done with that draft I put it away for a while. Then come back to it and quite often I'll see what I want the book to really be/say, where I can combine scenes and what scenes are superfluous.

As I hone in on subsequent drafts, I look at wants and needs. Who wants what? Do they get it? Are they thwarted? How does that propel the story? Usually this both reveals character and moves plot.
 

sayamini

i could go for another cappuccino.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
231
Reaction score
40
Location
Chicago
My own rule is that if a scene does not advance the plot or illuminate character, it has no place in my work.

But I agree that first drafts are where you are free to throw things at the page and see what sticks.

Maryn, deleting a huge sex scene with regret
This is how I feel about it, too. I think the only scenes that have any business being in a novel are ones that are essential to the plot. If your character needs to develop in a certain way before the plot can, then a scene purely for character development may be necessary. But I think each scene should work toward the goals of character dev, plot advancement, etc. No scene should only serve one purpose. If it does, it's probably unnecessary.

EDIT: That being said, a first draft can do whatever the hell it wants imo. You can write absolutely everything in a first draft and pare it down on the rewrite.
 

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
22,617
Reaction score
7,297
Location
Wash., D.C. area
One mistake I made early on was taking the whole "illuminate character" idea too seriously. My first completed novel had "get to know him" chapters where the characters went fishing, reminisced about a childhood trip they took, etc. Total asides for no other purpose than to make the characters more real so their reactions later weren't out of the blue.

I later learned how to accomplish the exact same thing by showing how the characters reacted to the events of the plot as it played out. No Disneyland needed.
 

Lakey

professional dilettante
Staff member
Super Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
2,714
Reaction score
3,965
Location
New England
One mistake I made early on was taking the whole "illuminate character" idea too seriously. My first completed novel had "get to know him" chapters where the characters went fishing, reminisced about a childhood trip they took, etc. Total asides for no other purpose than to make the characters more real so their reactions later weren't out of the blue.

I later learned how to accomplish the exact same thing by showing how the characters reacted to the events of the plot as it played out. No Disneyland needed.

Yep — you can work those fishing-tip and Disneyland memories in as part of your characters’ interiority, if needed. Another thing Stein on Writing talks about is “details that particularize” — you don’t necessarily need an entire scene to establish aspects of character. A well-chosen detail or two can serve the same purpose.

Contrast is also really useful — if you have a scene establishing character A, and a scene establishing character B, and then a plot-advancing scene involving both of them, consider whether you can just skip to the scene in which both of them appear, and use the contrast between how they engage with whatever happens in the scene to establish everything you wanted to establish about their characters.

:e2coffee:
 

Ariel.Williams

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 13, 2020
Messages
84
Reaction score
21
I agree with the idea of writing everything out in the first draft. You’ll probably cut a lot, but writing everything out will help you learn more about your characters, the path that takes you from A to B, etc. Then, when you go through it later, you can decide not only what’s necessary to keep, but if there are some passages you can shorten or combine. Now that you’ve written everything out you might see that this one element you used in an unnecessary scene can move to a necessary one. Now that scene may serve more than one purpose and would be even stronger. I don’t know if any of that makes sense, though!
 

Kalyke

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
1,850
Reaction score
182
Location
New Mexico, USA
Your idea of "intention" on your outline makes goos sense to me. I was thinking along the same lines, like "what do I want the reader to get out of this scene?" If it is only re-emphasising something you have previously written about, or will be in teh future, then it is redundant and you would need to think hard about why it is there. It is kind of the point where you must "Kill your children" (not sure if they still use that term).
 

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
873
Reaction score
562
Location
California
It is kind of the point where you must "Kill your children" (not sure if they still use that term).

Heheh--it's kill your darlings. Children may or may not fall into that category during a pandemic. :D
 

janeofalltrades

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Messages
50
Reaction score
6
Location
USA
During my first draft, I often wrote scenes that were taking place in the background, but I needed to get out of me what was going on that my FMC wasn't aware of. Once I had that solidified, I deleted the scene.

If you don't like the idea of deleting a scene for whatever reason, I got an idea from Pinterest to cut and paste them into a separate file, so you still have the scene if you decide to add it back in. I used this to rearrange my flashback scenes.

ETA Another tip: Work in the characters' backstory in pieces. From his intro the readers find out my MMC who is divorced, comes from divorced parents and that clearly the men in his family are not cut out for relationships. But it isn't until much later you find out WHY he got the divorce. Tease the reader and they'll want to keep reading to find out the whole story.
 
Last edited:

Woollybear

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
9,704
Location
USA
I’d summarize payoff as getting an emotional reaction from the reader. In my early comic I leaned heavily on humor — if the last panel made them laugh, no one was going to think the page was a waste of time.

Humor is such a powerful tool. I'd agree here, that to my way of thinking if a scene is humorous, it might earn its place even if it doesn't follow some of the standard advice.

Curiosity, satisfaction, and wonder (as katfeete goes on to mention) are awesome. The 'cool factor' in SFF can do a lot to excite a reader; sometimes adding some element of wonder to a scene does for it what nothing else can accomplish. And then, to me, as katfeete alludes--payoff is underrated by and large... writing with an eye specifically toward payoff to the reader is probably a really decent way to think about it. I at least get overly focused on making sure the set up is there, but what about payoff? That's what'll keep readers happy.

(And separately, I must read Stein's book. Every time Lakey mentions it it sounds amazingly on point.)
 
Last edited:

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,212
Reaction score
15,821
Location
Australia.
Humor is such a powerful tool. I'd agree here, that to my way of thinking if a scene is humorous, it might earn its place even if it doesn't follow some of the standard advice.

Not sure about this. I rely on humour a lot in my writing, but it always needs to do more than just be funny. It has to move the story along or flesh out a character or make a statement of some kind. Otherwise it's going to get scissored.
 

bearilou

DenturePunk writer
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
6,004
Reaction score
1,233
Location
yawping barbarically over the roofs of the world
I'm a putter-inner. I write everything on the page. It's due to my hoarder personality I guess. I never know if I might need it. And I can't know that until I've finished the book.

It's rare that I pull a scene, though. I guess at this point I trust my scant outline and my intuition as to whether it's needed or not and if it's not, it doesn't get written.