COVID-19 | Coronavirus May 2020

frimble3 said:

Your spouse should get a T-shirt: "My dog is on a 6-foot leash. If she bites you, you were too close."

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One of my co-workers is in a high risk group and happens to have a pet python. I'd love to see the social distancing effect of casually walking around with a 6'+ danger noodle.

Back in 1999 OSHA had written the final rule on protecting health care workers from tuberculosis. Everything was done, comments concluded, all published in the Federal Register (a US thing).

Along came GW Bush (i.e. a Republican POTUS) and one of the first things he did was simply unfund implementation of the final rule. Screw Congress, screw the workers.

Now here we are (actually were) again.

NPR: Trump Team Killed Rule Designed To Protect Health Workers From Pandemic Like COVID-19

When President Trump took office in 2017, his team stopped work on new federal regulations that would have forced the healthcare industry to prepare for an airborne infectious disease pandemic like COVID-19. That decision is documented in federal records reviewed by NPR.

"If that rule had gone into effect, then every hospital, every nursing home would essentially have to have a plan where they made sure they had enough respirators and they were prepared for this sort of pandemic," said David Michaels, who at the time served as head of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

There are still no specific federal regulations protecting healthcare workers from deadly airborne pathogens like influenza, tuberculosis or the coronavirus. This fact hit home during the last respiratory pandemic, the H1N1 outbreak in 2009. Thousands of Americans died and dozens of healthcare workers got sick. At least four nurses died.

Studies conducted after H1N1 found voluntary federal safety guidelines designed to limit the spread of airborne pathogens in medical facilities often weren't being followed. There were also shortages of personal protective equipment (PPE).

"H1N1 made it very clear OSHA did not have adequate standards for airborne transmission and contact transmission and so we began writing a standard to do that," Michaels said.

OSHA experts were confident new airborne infectious disease regulations would make hospitals and nursing homes safer when future pandemics hit. That's because similar rules had already been created for blood-borne pathogens like Ebola and Hepatitis.

Those rules, implemented during the HIV-AIDS epidemic, forced the healthcare industry to implement safety plans and buy more equipment designed to protect staff and patients.

But making a new infectious disease regulation, affecting much of the American healthcare system, is time-consuming and contentious. It requires lengthy consultation with scientists, doctors, other state and federal regulatory agencies, as well as the nursing and hospital industries that would be forced to implement the standard.

Federal records reviewed by NPR show OSHA went step-by-step through that process for six years and by early 2016 the new infectious disease rule was ready. The Obama White House formally added it to a list of regulations scheduled to be implemented in 2017.

Then came the presidential election....

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Even as the crisis is all around us:

Castillo says the infectious disease regulations shelved by the Trump administration should be implemented immediately by Congress as an emergency rule before a second wave of the coronavirus hits.

"Which obviously would mandate that employers have the highest level of PPE, not the lowest," she said.

Democrats in the House passed a bill in mid-May that would do that, but the measure has been blocked by the Republican-controlled Senate and the rules are still opposed by the White House.

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How long can people in this country keep voting against their best interests?

Prozyan said:

Here, most are giving you the option to wait in your car if you don't want to wear a mask.

Not sure what that really accomplishes.

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I think that what it's intended to accomplish is saving the receptionist from having to argue with, well, the kind of nuts who believe their civil rights are being violated by wearing a mask, get into fights over having to wear a mask and carry guns to State Capitols to protest wearing a mask.
"Okay, buddy, don't want to wear a mask, then go sit in your car until I call you."
"Don't have a car? Plenty of sidewalk then, pick a spot, not too near the doorway, and wait. I will knock on the window when it's time."
Soo much simpler than having to argue with idiots.

MaeZe said:

How long can people in this country keep voting against their best interests?

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Far, far longer than any rational person wants to think about.

CWatts said:

One of my co-workers is in a high risk group and happens to have a pet python. I'd love to see the social distancing effect of casually walking around with a 6'+ danger noodle.

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Love to see video! Co-worker walking through a crowded park. Crowds part like the Red Sea. Python sticks out a foot or so of body to get a better look/enjoy the day. Crowd thinks of other places to be.

frimble3 said:

Your spouse should get a T-shirt: "My dog is on a 6-foot leash. If she bites you, you were too close."

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CWatts said:

One of my co-workers is in a high risk group and happens to have a pet python. I'd love to see the social distancing effect of casually walking around with a 6'+ danger noodle.

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I've got a 4-5' danger noodle house guest right now. "Mr. Big" is a bullsnake, not a python, and he is one of the biology department animals at the college where I teach. They needed housing for all of them when campus was closed, so I volunteered to take him until the campus is open again (we've already committed to online again in the fall). My own snake, a 3 1/2 foot gopher snake (smaller relatives of bull snakes) passed away at the venerable age of 27 last winter, so we had space for a vivarium in Norlin the gopher snake's old corner.

I suppose I could walk into stores with Mr. Big draped over my shoulders like as stole. He's generally docile, but every now and then something riles him up, and members of the Pituophis genus (bull snakes, pine snakes, and gopher snakes) can HISS like a broken steam pipe when they're angry.

Re the mask issue, I've noticed something rather disturbing. Now that CA is moving to "phase three" with opening (I do not think we are ready for this, no matter what our governor says, because the number of new cases is not reliably dropping), it seems fewer people are wearing masks. Wearing masks is one of the things that is strongly recommended to make reopening safer, because they have been shown to reduce transmission. But there's a psychological effect, it seems. With restaurants, churches, barbershops, nail salons and so on slated to reopen with "conditions," many people seem to think the threat is past.

I predict a surge in cases soon, but by then it will essentially be too late to close again.

MaeZe said:

How long can people in this country keep voting against their best interests?

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Whose best interest again? You lost me.

-cb

cbenoi1 said:

Whose best interest again? You lost me.

-cb

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The majority of the 99%.

mrsmig said:

Update on the dentist office situation: my dentist responded to my email with an apology and explained that the previous patient had been late for his appointment, while I was a bit early for mine. (He must have been hella late if his appointment was supposed to be 30 minutes before mine.) While she didn't say that he refused to wear a mask, she did mention that "a few stubborn people don't want to follow the rules." She said they'd be putting a sign on the door immediately, asking those who enter to wear a mask.

I still think they should put their COVID-19 protocols in their appointment reminder emails, but whatever.

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A sign? Do they have an option for people who don't wear them, like offering them a mask?

And if he was so late, why didn't they take him right in?

I get the impression your dentist is one of those people who rarely if ever confronts people.

It's a half-way response. Maybe by the time you need to go in again things will have changed.

MaeZe said:

A sign? Do they have an option for people who don't wear them, like offering them a mask?

And if he was so late, why didn't they take him right in?

I get the impression your dentist is one of those people who rarely if ever confronts people.

It's a half-way response. Maybe by the time you need to go in again things will have changed.

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It may seem baffling that business owners and employees are being such wimps, given that they're at the greatest risk of catching the virus from repeat and sustained exposure to people with silent infections, and they're the ones who need to have conversations (long conversations in enclosed spaces are one thing that greatly increases risk) with people who are potentially infectious. But in another way it makes sense. People in general tend to avoid conflict and none of us are really trained to enforce unpopular policies, especially when doing so risks a violent confrontation. I suspect most of the non mask wearers aren't going to shoot, spit on, or hit someone who turns them away, but enough have that it's a pretty scary thing to countenance. And even a loud, screaming tirade greatly increases potential virus exposure.

One way I'm annoyed with my own state's (California) governor and government is that they've recommended that people wear masks in places of business and in public spaces where people congregate, but they haven't passes a law. This means the onus is on individual business owners, or the employees of said business, to enforce any mask policy they may or may not adopt. Given how over the top some folks are getting when asked to wear masks, it's no wonder individual businesses are not implementing and enforcing mask requirements for customers. If the state policy had teeth, such as the threat hefty fines and of public health officials closing the business down during the crisis, more managers would take it seriously.

We really can't expect hourly employees, or even mild-mannered dentists, to consistently enforce an in-house policy about masks, not when doing so places the employee or proprietor at risk. It's easy to see how one can rationalize that it's "safer" to get Mister-No-Mask in and out of the place as quickly as possible without having to get too close to him. What if you stand up to him and he unleashes a long, virus-laden tirade?

As we re-open, mask wearing in public will be more important than ever, but the protective effect is diluted by people who shrug off the requirement, or wear their masks improperly. More states need to make the mask requirement a legal condition of re-opening, one that can be reported and enforce via fines and forced closures of non-compliant businesses. Then the employees can say, "Sorry, dude, but if we don't enforce this, we will be shut down." This tack won't end all angry confrontations, because there are some people who are really far around the bend, but it may work with folks who aren't wearing masks because they're uncomfortable, or because they are convinced they personally can't be sick or that they don't really do any good.

I see a lot of signs of "Covid-19 fatigue" in our state (which closed down pretty early during the crisis). In the absence of alarming news footage of overfull ERs (averted, for now, by the fairly strict closure terms), many are starting to assume the worst is over, or maybe even that it wasn't such a big deal to begin with. I don't see any way a new wave can be averted, and it will be very hard for governors to roll back to an earlier level of closure.

The question remains what percentage of people will continue to shelter in place for the most part, and what percentage will rush out to dine-in restaurants, hair and nail salons, book stores and in-person church services? And how many people will be forced to return to work now that things are re-opening, even if they'd rather stay home? And what percentage of businesses and places of worship will actually observe and enforce the guidelines? And what will the state and community officials do to those who flaunt the conditions of re-opening?

WA State is acting similarly. The WHO wants all countries to mandate masks for everyone and Inslee is only making it voluntary. King County mandates masks outdoors in public places but there are no consequences.

On a positive note, the state is sicking (sp?) occupational safety and health on businesses opening up against state orders. We won't arrest you and start a fight. We'll just threaten huge fines for putting workers at risk.


On the even more positive news front: Unemployment insurance has kicked in. Money's in the bank! Woohoo!. $751 US/week after tax withholding. And they've accepted being at serious risk as the grounds so I don't have to go looking for 3 jobs/week, the normal requirement for being on unemployment.

In WA, public health orders are legal orders. Maybe Virginia has a similar law?

I've written our governor, stating I think mask use and appropriate social distancing protocols within businesses should be mandatory and enforced by law. I also stated a concern that we will see a surge in cases as more "social" types of businesses and churches re-open, as prolonged contact, especially indoors and with conversations/singing etc. are thought to increase the risk of infectious exposure.

It's frustrating that CA, which was one of the states to start taking this virus seriously early on, has not kept up with new data on best practices.

Going to dine-in bars and restaurants, getting haircuts, and going to church services are all activities that remain quite risky, even with precautions, and I don't have a lot of confidence that all these places will be implementing or enforcing best practices anyway.

I went to the post office for the first time since the crisis started, because there was a package I had to mail, and it had several signs on the door saying mask wearing was mandatory inside. Everyone in the place--customers (fortunately it wasn't very busy) and workers--were wearing masks and being careful. It was refreshing to see.

100,047 dead in the US as of 17:50.

Grats?

-cb

The morning I tweeted a picture of a road crew clustered closely outside my house to our governor, the crews were pulled less than an hour later (construction wasn't halted, but they pulled that crew and others with the same company). It was a couple of months ago. I'm going to take some news pics tomorrow of my reckless, possibly sociopath neighbors who are endangering themselves, their children, and the general public by living exactly as they did before the pandemic. I see almost no masks (and when I do, I often see visible nostrils), no distancing. My next door neighbors are having a cookout tonight with several couples who all drove here from I don't know where. It's outside, which is nice, but at some point, the guests may have to use the bathroom inside and knowing the size of their yard and how many people are there, I don't see how they're being safe. Oddly, my husband's workplace, which is owned by and staffed mostly by Trump voters (who've gone quiet about him so maybe there's remorse) are complying with safety measures and no one's grumbling. I did not expect that, and am relieved as he has to go in some days (2-3 days a week here, 2-3 in the office).

My county's curve has been flat for awhile, but no thanks to my privileged neighborhood. In a neighborhood Facebook group, during a discussion about the effectiveness of face masks, a man I know to nod to in the street suggested in crude terms that if I expected him to stay inside for a year (I said nothing of the sort, just posted an article about mask effectiveness, as a few other people had done and didn't address him) I orally pleasure him. That's the level of anger from Trump cultists. He got bounced from the group, but who says that to a neighbor? Or anyone?

Lyv said:

That's the level of anger from Trump cultists. He got bounced from the group, but who says that to a neighbor? Or anyone?

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Trump supporters. It's consistently like that in the social media I wade in. I think one of the things they like about Trump is his willingness to say mean and abusive things to people. It's a feature they like, not a defect they regret but reluctantly accept.

Roxxsmom said:

I've written our governor, stating I think mask use and appropriate social distancing protocols within businesses should be mandatory and enforced by law. I also stated a concern that we will see a surge in cases as more "social" types of businesses and churches re-open, as prolonged contact, especially indoors and with conversations/singing etc. are thought to increase the risk of infectious exposure.

It's frustrating that CA, which was one of the states to start taking this virus seriously early on, has not kept up with new data on best practices.

Going to dine-in bars and restaurants, getting haircuts, and going to church services are all activities that remain quite risky, even with precautions, and I don't have a lot of confidence that all these places will be implementing or enforcing best practices anyway.

I went to the post office for the first time since the crisis started, because there was a package I had to mail, and it had several signs on the door saying mask wearing was mandatory inside. Everyone in the place--customers (fortunately it wasn't very busy) and workers--were wearing masks and being careful. It was refreshing to see.

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Good for you for writing to the Governor! I'll bet all they usually hear from are Trumpists and Libertarians whining about the evil restrictions -more people should write in encouraging them in taking the safer road.

Diana Hignutt said:

I am not the mask police. I will never admonish any customers for not wearing masks. My job is to sell auto parts. Not to get shot or beat up for enforcing virus rules. Still more people than not wearing masks.

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Exactly! There is no reason that front-line clerks should be forced to act as mask police. Particularly in the US where you've got idiots with guns wanting a fight about their 'rights'.
If anything, in these times, the manager or supervisor should be up front, sorting the sheep from the goats.

frimble3 said:

If anything, in these times, the manager or supervisor should be up front, sorting the sheep from the goats.

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I think part of the problem is managers and supervisors aren't generally paid all that well, either. It's one thing for someone to grumble at you. It's another for them to get physically threatening, and/or stand too damn close and shout.

I suspect before we're done with this we'll have actual public health orders backed up by law. Right now they're counting on people's respect and common sense, but there's too large a minority who aren't interested in being respectful or paying attention to facts. And it only takes one to start a cluster.

lizmonster said:

Right now they're counting on people's respect and common sense.

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Oh, yeah, that'll work!

frimble3 said:

Oh, yeah, that'll work!

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Yeah, that's exactly the problem. Some of it is political foolishness, but some of it is just bored humans doing bad risk assessments, because they've never been in this kind of situation before.

We're lucky that around here people seem to be respecting the rules (although dammit, grocery shoppers, you are never going to understand what six feet is, are you? Sigh). Nobody's yelled at me for wearing a mask, and with one exception, all the Nextdoor scuttlebutt is about looking after each other as neighbors. Don't know if it'll keep going as this drags on for months and months (which it wouldn't be doing if our government had locked things down hard when they first realized how bad it would be).

lizmonster said:

I think part of the problem is managers and supervisors aren't generally paid all that well, either. It's one thing for someone to grumble at you. It's another for them to get physically threatening, and/or stand too damn close and shout.

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This. Often, promotion to manager is in name only, or it means you've been given more responsibility with little real power and an insignificant pay increase.

I suspect before we're done with this we'll have actual public health orders backed up by law. Right now they're counting on people's respect and common sense, but there's too large a minority who aren't interested in being respectful or paying attention to facts. And it only takes one to start a cluster.

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I hope the laws come. Many people are using common sense, but even a small minority of assholes can endanger everyone else. And with the stay at home orders expiring in most states (and simply not being renewed), or being incrementally relaxed, many people are under the impression the worst has to be behind us. It will be very, very hard, and very, very unpopular for Governors to go backwards and increase the level of restrictions again. Mask wearing and respect for distancing will be very important as people start going out to indoor businesses that are reopening, as will the cooperation of business owners in reducing numbers, providing adequate ventilation etc. Seriously, there should be restrictions on reopening any business that doesn't have either windows that can be opened or an HVac system that can pull stale air out of a building and filter viral particles. Or maybe to only allow restaurants to open their outside dining areas. This means that many individual businesses still could not reopen, through no fault of their own, and I don't know of any state that is applying the emerging information about air flow dynamics and risk of spread when they decide who can re-open.

Of course, enforcement of mask and social distancing laws means states, counties and communities would have to employ enough public health officials to do the job, and for those officials (and the police when need be) actually support the rules and are willing to stick their own necks out to enforce them. This has been an issue in the handful of states that have laws requiring masks in stores.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/business/grocery-stores-masks-face-coverings-customers/index.html