Is it possible to have detailed worldbuilding under 120,000 words?

Prophecies · Apr 27, 2020

I'm writing a literary novel that is part dystopia, part historical.

In simple terms, my plot follows a 20 year old, who goes back into Nazi Germany for 10 years, and then travels back ten years after his first disappearance, where he is now thirty.

The dystopian elements are set in a decaying Germany that is post-European Union, while the historical elements are World War II, and the years after the Great Depression (spanning 8 years). My novel is essentially, three books in one: Germany's identity crisis (15,000 words), Germany under Nazism / WWII (65,000 words), and Germany's future embrace of totalitarianism (40,000 words). My MC experiences all three of these periods. I'm writing with a strict ouline, have scenes planned, and written the first 'book' which is around 11,000 words. (underwriter!)

Originally, my aim was a word count of 120,000 words for trade publishing. It'll probably be a few thousand under. But I look at novels like Wolf Hall, The Kindly Ones, All The Light We Cannot See, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel, and plenty of historical, or inspired-by-history fiction, and I believe that my worldbuilding is insufficent. Readers like detail and worldbuilding, and I'm afriad that I'm thinning out on it.

But I'm also worried about inflation. If my novel is too long, and as a debut author, that makes querying already more difficult.

Any tips on how to incorporate worldbuilding without inflating the word count? Remember: I need to recreate Nazi Germany, and create two worlds: Germany under totalitarianism, and under economic ruin. So I'm building 3 connected worlds, and they must seem believable.

MaeZe · Apr 27, 2020

It's all about writing what is needed to move the story along, and not what you love about the world. Might be time to kill a few darlings.

I'm glad my book one is 110,000 words because I have so much room to trim. Sigh, but some of it is/was hard to cut. I'll be better for it, and so will the book.

indianroads · Apr 27, 2020

For me, the world is the stage scenery - important YES because it sets the mood and in some cases provides challenges to your characters. As a reader, I'm much more interested in the story and the characters in it. IMO readers invest themselves in the characters, and root for them to succeed - they don't do that for the world you build.

That said, 120 K words is not over the top. According to Google the average word count for a scifi novel is 90 - 125 K. Mine usually come in a bit over 100 K. There are some major door-stoppers out there (thick books), but I think only well established authors are likely to get away with that. Many write long and edit to short, others write short and edit to lengthen, it really doesn't matter what process you use to get there.

mccardey · Apr 27, 2020

Yes, it is of course. You are the boss of what you write, and the way that you write it.

Elle. · Apr 28, 2020

Yes of course it's possible. Some example: Station 11, The Handmaid's Tale (both around 90,000 words), Neverwhere (98,000 words), Stardust (50,000 words).

Big word count for debut author is more of a risk for agents and publishers because long books cost more to produce as they have more pages so they are very careful as to what they take on.

Lakey · Apr 28, 2020

With respect to indianroads, I think the key to efficient worldbuilding is not to treat the world as stage-scenery, but to integrate it wholly into the characters’ perceptions, actions, experiences, and world views.

You mention Wolf Hall as an example — all of the rich detail of that book is conveyed through the perceptions and actions of the POV character, Thomas Cromwell. You learn about clothing conventions from the sartorial choices Cromwell makes as he becomes more wealthy - he thinks about whether to wear his orange doublet like a flashy gentleman or the plain grey outfit of his lawyer days. You learn about social conventions from the way the noblemen treat him, talking down to him derisively even when it is obvious that he has the King’s favor. (Can’t you hear Norfolk scowling, “Cromwell, why are you such a person?”) You learn about what the buildings look like through Cromwell’s oversight of the restoration projects at Austin Friars, through his coveting of the Bathsheba tapestry with the figure on it who looks like his ex-lover, through the inventories that get taken of the Cardinal’s property as it is seized. The way people react to the sweating sickness, the tools Cromwell uses to write with, the food he asks his cook Thurston to make, the activities the characters are in the middle of when conversations happen — all of these things build world and character together, because world and character are integral.

The last, I think, hints at the key point — in the best fiction, in my opinion, the details the author chooses to describe do a lot of heavy lifting, often serving more than one purpose at a time. The way you choose to present a detail noticed by the POV character tells your reader something about the POV character’s environment, but also about the POV character herself, and also possibly about her current state of mind, and might also even carry some symbolic meaning in the story. That, in my opinion, is how you write efficiently — choose details that do more than one thing.

:e2coffee:

Chris P · Apr 28, 2020

I joined AW in 2009 shortly after I had completed and was looking to get my "perfect" novel published at . . . 230,000 words. You can imagine the first lesson I learned here. And that novel wasn't even fantasy! It was a travel novel set in the modern day about four strangers who meet online and go on a Cairo to Cape Town trek.

The human mind has an amazing capacity to say "yeah, I got it" and not need every single detail provided. Especially since your target audience is likely to already be familiar with the basic historical interwar facts (most reasonably educated folks are going to know there was huge inflation, rising xenophobia, and popular support for a strong leader), going light on some of the details might tighten things up a bit. Does the reader need to know every historical step along the way? Do your characters need to have a reaction to every fact? Do you need so many characters? I've not read your book, so only you can answer this.

I recently read Berlin by Jason Lutes, a graphic novel covering about 1928 to 1931 or so. It's weighty because of all the artwork, but as far as story goes I suspect it would be about 90 to 100K in novel form. However, any story can be told in almost any number of words and could have been adjusted up or down as wished.

mccardey · Apr 28, 2020

Someone* mentioned "The Remains of the Day" wrt OP's novel. It's definitely literary, and very tight. OP - have another look at that. Especially, have a look at how the world-building has all been done before a single word was written.

ETA: *Lakey! It was you!

Lakey · Apr 28, 2020

mccardey said:
ETA: *Lakey! It was you!

Oops, no -- I lied! I mentioned The Remains of the Day in a discussion of someone else's excerpt. :e2paperba

If it was mentioned with respect to this OP's work I cannot take credit for that!

:e2coffee:

Cephus · Apr 28, 2020

Very easily. You're not writing the history of your world, you're writing a story that happens within it and you only have to talk about the things that directly impact the story and the reader's understanding of it. If you're just dumping irrelevant worldbuilding into the story, you're doing it all wrong.

Marissa D · Apr 28, 2020

To build on what others have said...what is more important: detailed world-building, or highly effective world-building?

Kat M · Apr 28, 2020

What kind of worldbuilding do you need to write?

This is for draft 1 only. It gets edited in or edited out after. Do you need to write pages and pages of description and backstory to get your mind ready to put the story on the page? Do that. Then edit it out and take the amazing advice others (shout-out to Lakey) have given. Do you just want to write the story and don't know how to get the world onto the page? Write the story and then expand from there, starting with what can be brought out in the action.

Then find betas that are unfamiliar with your world, enough that they'll need the worldbuilding. Ask them specifically to tell you if they felt bogged down or confused and adjust accordingly.

The Black Prince · Apr 28, 2020

Lakey said:
With respect to indianroads, I think the key to efficient worldbuilding is not to treat the world as stage-scenery, but to integrate it wholly into the characters’ perceptions, actions, experiences, and world views.

You mention Wolf Hall as an example — all of the rich detail of that book is conveyed through the perceptions and actions of the POV character, Thomas Cromwell. You learn about clothing conventions from the sartorial choices Cromwell makes as he becomes more wealthy - he thinks about whether to wear his orange doublet like a flashy gentleman or the plain grey outfit of his lawyer days. You learn about social conventions from the way the noblemen treat him, talking down to him derisively even when it is obvious that he has the King’s favor. (Can’t you hear Norfolk scowling, “Cromwell, why are you such a person?”) You learn about what the buildings look like through Cromwell’s oversight of the restoration projects at Austin Friars, through his coveting of the Bathsheba tapestry with the figure on it who looks like his ex-lover, through the inventories that get taken of the Cardinal’s property as it is seized. The way people react to the sweating sickness, the tools Cromwell uses to write with, the food he asks his cook Thurston to make, the activities the characters are in the middle of when conversations happen — all of these things build world and character together, because world and character are integral.

The last, I think, hints at the key point — in the best fiction, in my opinion, the details the author chooses to describe do a lot of heavy lifting, often serving more than one purpose at a time. The way you choose to present a detail noticed by the POV character tells your reader something about the POV character’s environment, but also about the POV character herself, and also possibly about her current state of mind, and might also even carry some symbolic meaning in the story. That, in my opinion, is how you write efficiently — choose details that do more than one thing.

Great post.

I'll just add my usual comment - I always immerse myself in the story, whether as a voyeur or participant, I'm always in there somehow. What emerges from this (I hope) is a more real and visceral "experience" of my built world for the reader.

The other thing, as someone mentioned above, people bring their own sensory experiences to the reading experience and if you find ways of triggering those, the readers themselves are adding to your story/world for you. Brush strokes will do it. Too much detail is cluttered and distracting from the flow.

Prophecies · Apr 29, 2020

Thanks everyone for responding. My novel is in early days, and I honestly have no clue what the final word count would be. I think I'm procrastinating by worrying about 'word counts' from publishers. Whilst important, it may hold my writing back. I don't see my novel being longer than 160,000 words (which okay, still stresses me out), and while there is an 'epicness' to the story, it's a character study. But I want the history part to be vital. The books I mentioned in my first post inspire me, because they fuse philosophical & character driven ideas with a historical record. This gives the feeling while reading that you aren't just experiencing a characters' journey, but also history being made.

What concerns me is believability. In previous critiques for short historical fiction, I'm advised to put more detail in. It's an area that I skimp on, despite being a history student myself. The end result is flat stories with no bite. Also, as others have correctly pointed out, too much detail can spoil the painting! But I guess I don't know what colours to use.

Special shout out to Lakey. Selective details that develop character will help, and you are right, putting in details for the sake of them is rather ill fitting. On my second draft, I'll flesh out my MC's emotional reactions even more. That was something I struggled with in Julian Barnes' The Sense of An Ending. I remember the philosophical musings, but I can't recall what triggered them. (Btw, I like Barnes. Just thought he needed stronger moments in TSOAE. And a decent amount of lit fic has this problem)

I'm also dealing with a weird first novel thing, where I have so many things I want to say and do, and I can't imagine my novel being under 100,000 words without poor exposition, info dumping or preachiness. I prefer subtle writing that rewards on future rereads. That's hard to master.

Note: My MC is the only protagonist. Sweeping epics tend to have a whole cast of characters.

Thanks for any response, and I appreciate your patience. I'm new here, and talking about my novel helps my writing, and encourages me.

indianroads · Apr 29, 2020

As far as details are concerned, it may be a matter of relevance. For instance, does it matter to your story what the monetary system is based on? If so, include it, otherwise let it go. Try looking for areas of your story that aren't necessary to the plot / character(s) arc, and consider diminishing or even leaving them out entirely.

As so length; have you considered writing a series rather than a single novel? You can cover a lot more in a series, and deliver it to the reader one book at a time in chewable bites.

veinglory · Apr 29, 2020

I think you can show characters experiencing events in a completely novel world in a haiku. If you word uses karma, or bacteria, or ownership of stones on a distant moon as currency you can show them doing that without needed to explain why it is that way.

mccardey · Apr 29, 2020

veinglory said:
I think you can show characters experiencing events in a completely novel world in a haiku.

Quite right. And remember that although writing - for you - is about "everything you want to say and do" reading - for the reader - (and even more for the publisher) is about engaging their thought processes. Not yours. So write as much as you like, but remember it's likely you're going to need to edit way down, even before you hit query stage. Write your words out, but don't fall in love with them is my advice.

frimble3 · Apr 29, 2020

And, you're not describing a completely unfamiliar world. Most readers will have at least a passing familiarity with WWII and the Great Depression, if only from the movies. The visuals, at least, only need triggering. And the advice about showing it from your MC's POV is good, let him think about how it differs (or not) from the images in his head.

Woollybear · Apr 29, 2020

Lakey said:
in the best fiction, in my opinion, the details the author chooses to describe do a lot of heavy lifting, often serving more than one purpose at a time. The way you choose to present a detail noticed by the POV character tells your reader something about the POV character’s environment, but also about the POV character herself, and also possibly about her current state of mind, and might also even carry some symbolic meaning in the story. That, in my opinion, is how you write efficiently — choose details that do more than one thing.

I like this part best of the whole thing. I think, OP, that the best fiction has every word doing double and triple duty.

FWIW setting was hard for me to nail down because (amateur) people reading my (amateur) work would say simply "I don't know what it looks like." So I thought they wanted to know what 'it' looked like and I would go to great lengths describing a character or a room or whatever, knowing this approach was somehow off. I had an aha moment a couple years ago thanks to Lakey or Beth or Elle or a combination of them and some others that helped me see it.

Consider a couple possibilities with a bathroom: If your character goes into a bathroom and her eyes fall on her car keys, and she mutters "Thank God," that's revealing, and it's quite different than if she goes into a bathroom and her eyes fall on a negligee that is not hers, and she mutters, "I knew it." The props in the scene (and the character's response) should relate to each other and serve the greater story.

Also, opening lines carry a lot of weight, FWIW, to set the book:

It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. —George Orwell, 1984 (1949)

^^Worldbuilding.

But to the question

Any tips on how to incorporate worldbuilding without inflating the word count? Remember: I need to recreate Nazi Germany, and create two worlds: Germany under totalitarianism, and under economic ruin. So I'm building 3 connected worlds, and they must seem believable.

I'd recommend considering the Back to the Future clocktower device. Take some building or landmark that is recognizable and distinct. It's face reflects the times. A war memorial, maybe, pristine in 1930, damaged in the war, memorialized, and then in post-EU falls into disrepair. There would be emotional tug inherent in some structure like that. It could become thematic, like the clock tower tied into history repeating itself.

MythMonger · Apr 30, 2020

OP: Have you seen The Dark on Netflix? It's about characters that time travel in Germany during different time periods: post WW2, 80s, present day, and future dystopian.

If nothing else, might be good for a comp.

frimble3 · Apr 30, 2020

FWIW, I like the war memorial idea. Built for the dead of WWI, site of protests in the Depression, speeches in the run-up to the Third Reich, damaged in WWII, etc.
Memorable and evocative.

WriteMinded · May 1, 2020

@ OP: Yes.

Is it possible to have detailed worldbuilding under 120,000 words?

Prophecies

MaeZe

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

mccardey

Elle.

Lakey

professional dilettante

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

mccardey

Lakey

professional dilettante

Cephus

Marissa D

Scribe of the girls in the basement

Kat M

Ooh, look! String!

The Black Prince

Prophecies

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

veinglory

volitare nequeo

mccardey

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Woollybear

MythMonger

Willing to Learn

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

WriteMinded

Derailed