Writing About Controversial Subjects: Nazism, WWII, Modern Germany, etc.

Prophecies · Apr 24, 2020

I'm writing a book, that is literary fiction. In it, the MC becomes a Nazi. It's told from his POV. My brother told me that my book (he hasn't read it, he just asked what it was about) is 'offensive' because it 'challenges' history.

Now, to be clear. By 'challenging history' I do not mean Holocaust denial or Nazi worship. I'm not a fan of either, and the thought of being so makes me feel sick. But my book does ask big questions: Is there anything we can 'learn' from the Holocaust? Can Nazis find redemption? Are we superior to our ancestors? What are we entitled to in this world? Like my favourite books, I do not answer these questions, but I explore them.

I know this is a politically charged question. And I hesitated before asking, because I did not want to cause a fight. But I'm worried that my book won't get published because it'll be misinterpreted, and views will be attributed to me. The best fiction, in my opinion, gets the reader to think for themselves. I dislike 'preachy literature' where the writer does the thinking for you.

Having done a university course about the ethics of historical research in english literature, and being a history major myself, I am well equipped at doing the necessary research. I know that if my book is published, it won't please everyone. Truth is, I'm very excited about this book, and have poured my soul in it. I was so excited about it, I wrote 6,000 words in a day for it! I can't stop thinking about it. Although the book has absolutely bleak subject matter, writing it makes me happy. This is a book that I'm meant to write. But I've seen how Twitter misinterprets particular Young Adult books, and yeah, it saddens me. They can say some really disgusting things about authors, assume the worst, and for a debut author, that is highly worrying.

And I refuse to use sensitivity readers, and please don't suggest them, because I don't work well with them. Others may, but not me.

I guess I'm just looking for some wisdom.

Any comments are appreciated, and again, I don't want to cause a fight.

indianroads · Apr 24, 2020

Personally, I like discussing / reading about controversial subjects as long it doesn't get heated. I'm ok with others having different views than my own, would not like it if they tried to convert me to their way of thinking.

I think your story sounds intriguing, but suggest that you keep a close POV with your MC. That will allow your audience to see it through his eyes, hear his justifications / reasons etc. for what he does. That will make him a more sympathetic and interesting character.

Prophecies · Apr 24, 2020

indianroads said:
Personally, I like discussing / reading about controversial subjects as long it doesn't get heated. I'm ok with others having different views than my own, would not like it if they tried to convert me to their way of thinking.

I think your story sounds intriguing, but suggest that you keep a close POV with your MC. That will allow your audience to see it through his eyes, hear his justifications / reasons etc. for what he does. That will make him a more sympathetic and interesting character.

Thank you for responding, and I'm placing alot of emphasis on his 'justifications and worldview.' That's important to the reading experience. Good point about not converting readers, and I'll def keep that in mind.

lizmonster · Apr 24, 2020

Prophecies said:
I know this is a politically charged question. And I hesitated before asking, because I did not want to cause a fight. But I'm worried that my book won't get published because it'll be misinterpreted, and views will be attributed to me. The best fiction, in my opinion, gets the reader to think for themselves. I dislike 'preachy literature' where the writer does the thinking for you.

IME, when people refer to a specific work as 'preachy,' they mean it's presented from a belief system different from their own.

Prophecies said:
But I've seen how Twitter misinterprets particular Young Adult books, and yeah, it saddens me. They can say some really disgusting things about authors, assume the worst, and for a debut author, that is highly worrying.

Twitter is not all of your readership, nor is it all of publishing.

Prophecies said:
And I refuse to use sensitivity readers, and please don't suggest them, because I don't work well with them. Others may, but not me.

I think you may find yourself running into some roadblocks if you're not willing to have your work critiqued before you submit it, whether that's by sensitivity readers or anyone else.

Prophecies said:
Any comments are appreciated, and again, I don't want to cause a fight.

As you don't say much about the actual plot of your story, it's hard to comment usefully. I will say that writers as big as Stephen King have written about people becoming Nazis (in his short story "Apt Pupil," from the collection DIFFERENT SEASONS), so your subject matter isn't new or even controversial.

How you choose to handle it may be, and that's what jumps out at me in your question: you're claiming neutrality, but none of us are neutral. None. Writing is an inherently political act. Your desire to have the reader think for themselves is fine, but when you state you, as the author, are presenting this becoming-a-Nazi story from a position of neutrality - you're not. That's not a thing. You choose the story, the trajectory, the fate of your protagonists, good or bad.

Writers are not neutral, ever, and we write better when we own that.

On a more personal note: "Apt Pupil" is very clearly an anti-Nazi story. Even with that, I found it bleak and deeply unpleasant to read. Never did bother with the film.

Prophecies · Apr 24, 2020

lizmonster said:
IME, when people refer to a specific work as 'preachy,' they mean it's presented from a belief system different from their own.

Twitter is not all of your readership, nor is it all of publishing.

I think you may find yourself running into some roadblocks if you're not willing to have your work critiqued before you submit it, whether that's by sensitivity readers or anyone else.

As you don't say much about the actual plot of your story, it's hard to comment usefully. I will say that writers as big as Stephen King have written about people becoming Nazis (in his short story "Apt Pupil," from the collection DIFFERENT SEASONS), so your subject matter isn't new or even controversial.

How you choose to handle it may be, and that's what jumps out at me in your question: you're claiming neutrality, but none of us are neutral. None. Writing is an inherently political act. Your desire to have the reader think for themselves is fine, but when you state you, as the author, are presenting this becoming-a-Nazi story from a position of neutrality - you're not. That's not a thing. You choose the story, the trajectory, the fate of your protagonists, good or bad.

Writers are not neutral, ever, and we write better when we own that.

On a more personal note: "Apt Pupil" is very clearly an anti-Nazi story. Even with that, I found it bleak and deeply unpleasant to read. Never did bother with the film.

Thank you for your advice and reply. My story is this: Set in dystopian Germany, where the European Union has collapsed, Germany is entering 'decline'. Enter Main Character. He's smart, and believes that he knows better than anyone else, but the future ahead of him is grim without hope. He also loves his single, poor, mother, and has a foolish crush on a university student. He holds the past in disdain, and looks towards the future. But through time travel, he lands himself in Nazi Germany, a few years before World War II. When he talks to Nazi supporters, goes to the rallies, and meets the girl who is actually interested in him, he changes his mind on Nazism and World War II. He eventually becomes an SS officer and partakes in the brutality of the Holocaust, and indulges in his impulses. That's all I'll say for now as I'm still polishing the ending.

Although I do not use sensitivity readers, I am perfectly fine using beta readers and editors. I've used them in the past, and I plan to use them again. There is absolutely no way I'd submit my work to an agent without it being critiqued. Feedback is very valuable to me, but I dislike using sensitivity readers, for reasons I won't explore in this thread.

Glad Twitter is not mine or anyone elses readership.

Your point about neutrality is interesting, and I'll think more on it. Yes, I have things I want this novel to say, that's def true. Thanks again for your post.

angeliz2k · Apr 24, 2020

A couple things. Writing about Nazis is not endorsing Nazis or Nazism. The things in the thread title aren't controversial, per se; there's pretty broad agreement that Nazis were/are bad, WWII was a shit show, and modern Germany is modern Germany. They can be difficult topics, but there isn't a heck of a lot of controversy there.

I'll expand a bit on the first thing I said. Writing about a Nazi isn't to endorse Nazism, of course. Based on your post, however, it seems you want the Nazi to be at least partially sympathetic, which is a tricky prospect, to say the least. You are going to have to make it clear to the reader that you (and the reader) are condemning the Nazi actions but should have patience with this particular Nazi. I actually disagree slightly with the poster above and think that you might want to get some distance from the character, at least from time to time, to add a layer of authorial opinion. It doesn't need to be--shouldn't be--overt, but there needs to be a gloss of "this is wrong" running over and through everything. When you do get close to the character, I think you will need to show a lot of cognitive dissonance, a lot of push-and-pull. You're going to have to do a lot of heavy lifting with your prose.

No matter how well you pull this off, though, I think you should be aware that some people will object on principle to the idea of redeeming a Nazi. I can't tell you how many people that will be, but they will be out there. It's up to you whether you want to wade into that.

Prophecies · Apr 24, 2020

angeliz2k said:
A couple things. Writing about Nazis is not endorsing Nazis or Nazism. The things in the thread title aren't controversial, per se; there's pretty broad agreement that Nazis were/are bad, WWII was a shit show, and modern Germany is modern Germany. They can be difficult topics, but there isn't a heck of a lot of controversy there.

I'll expand a bit on the first thing I said. Writing about a Nazi isn't to endorse Nazism, of course. Based on your post, however, it seems you want the Nazi to be at least partially sympathetic, which is a tricky prospect, to say the least. You are going to have to make it clear to the reader that you (and the reader) are condemning the Nazi actions but should have patience with this particular Nazi. I actually disagree slightly with the poster above and think that you might want to get some distance from the character, at least from time to time, to add a layer of authorial opinion. It doesn't need to be--shouldn't be--overt, but there needs to be a gloss of "this is wrong" running over and through everything. When you do get close to the character, I think you will need to show a lot of cognitive dissonance, a lot of push-and-pull. You're going to have to do a lot of heavy lifting with your prose.

No matter how well you pull this off, though, I think you should be aware that some people will object on principle to the idea of redeeming a Nazi. I can't tell you how many people that will be, but they will be out there. It's up to you whether you want to wade into that.

Thank you for your words, and I must accept that not everyone will like my work, and even object to it. That's their right, at the end of the day. I'm writing in first person, as it suits me. Before the time skip, I've conveyed that the MC is an unreliable narrator. I'll experiment with 'distance' and work hard on my prose. I think at the end of the day, that can be a game changer. Thanks for your post, I'll think about what you said.

indianroads · Apr 24, 2020

IME, when people refer to a specific work as 'preachy,' they mean it's presented from a belief system different from their own.

Perhaps for you, but not me. I see preaching as attempted conversion - which I don't take well to.

lizmonster · Apr 24, 2020

indianroads said:
Perhaps for you, but not me. I see preaching as attempted conversion - which I don't take well to.

Based on the kinds of things I've seen called out as "attempted conversion," I stand by my statement.

stephenf · Apr 24, 2020

I have no idea what your book is about , so I don't feel able to comment one way or the other .
Most of the best books divide the critics . It can be too much of a challenge for some people to see a things in a new light , or from the other side of things. American Psycho was such a realistic account of the serial killer, Patrick Bateman, that some believe the writer Bret Easton Ellis enjoyed the idea of horrific murder and the book was a kind of pornography . I think you should write what you want to write .

mccardey · Apr 24, 2020

Prophecies said:
I'm writing a book, that is literary fiction. In it, the MC becomes a Nazi. It's told from his POV. My brother told me that my book (he hasn't read it, he just asked what it was about) is 'offensive' because it 'challenges' history.

Now, to be clear. By 'challenging history' I do not mean Holocaust denial or Nazi worship. I'm not a fan of either, and the thought of being so makes me feel sick. But my book does ask big questions: Is there anything we can 'learn' from the Holocaust? Can Nazis find redemption? Are we superior to our ancestors? What are we entitled to in this world? Like my favourite books, I do not answer these questions, but I explore them.

I know this is a politically charged question. And I hesitated before asking, because I did not want to cause a fight. But I'm worried that my book won't get published because it'll be misinterpreted, and views will be attributed to me. The best fiction, in my opinion, gets the reader to think for themselves. I dislike 'preachy literature' where the writer does the thinking for you.

Having done a university course about the ethics of historical research in english literature, and being a history major myself, I am well equipped at doing the necessary research. I know that if my book is published, it won't please everyone. Truth is, I'm very excited about this book, and have poured my soul in it. I was so excited about it, I wrote 6,000 words in a day for it! I can't stop thinking about it. Although the book has absolutely bleak subject matter, writing it makes me happy. This is a book that I'm meant to write. But I've seen how Twitter misinterprets particular Young Adult books, and yeah, it saddens me. They can say some really disgusting things about authors, assume the worst, and for a debut author, that is highly worrying.

And I refuse to use sensitivity readers, and please don't suggest them, because I don't work well with them. Others may, but not me.

I guess I'm just looking for some wisdom.

Any comments are appreciated, and again, I don't want to cause a fight.

I do quite a bit of beta-reading IRL, and I have to say I did groan inwardly a little at the re-examine-the-Nazi-stereotype, and the nature of evil thing - only because it comes over my desk so often. I've read at least three of them in the last few years: (Young Nazi, only provider for his ailing mother meets Jewish Girl, Saves Her From Group Rape By Nazi Pals and They Fall in Love was the one I liked least - which I'm sure you're not doing. But just on my desk in the last three or four years, four different writers, all with the same Nazis used for edgy examination of evil, questions of entitlement, nature v nurture, who would I be if..? type of thing.)

Since you've asked for advice, I'd have to say, why Nazism? If your MC is indulging his impulses, do you need Nazism for that? Much like a white Australian writing about the Frontier Wars, I wonder if the story ought to belong to the victims - especially since it's so recent and the damage is still causing chaos and grief. And especially given that you won't work with sensitivity readers because (I'm guessing here) they make you uncomfortable? The time is so recent and comes with so much trauma and grief, I wonder if you need to hang the time-travelling story on it?

There has been some beautiful, beautiful work done in the area you're talking about - both the themes and the times - but I wonder for a new writer, given that so very many new writers choose that exact same place as a starting-point, whether you're not setting yourself up for the added judgement of not having the creative imagination to set it up elsewhere?

That's my wisdom, such as it is. Hope it helps.

ETA: Btw, with regard to the bolded - if your book is misinterpreted by agents or publishers, it will be because your writing allowed it to be. Esp with this setting, and in lit fic, you're going to really have to nail it.

The Black Prince · Apr 24, 2020

You might take a look at Two Brothers by Ben Elton. It deals with similar material and does it very well IMHO. Always helps to know what else is out there.

indianroads · Apr 24, 2020

Based on the kinds of things I've seen called out as "attempted conversion," I stand by my statement.

I had a rather caustic journalism professor back in the day that would often shout, "Just get off your ****ing high horse and tell the truth!"

Several times, we had to write articles about controversial subjects, like death penalty and immigration, detailing both sides of the issue. His requirement was that he should not be able to tell which side of the issue we were on.

lizmonster · Apr 24, 2020

indianroads said:
I had a rather caustic journalism professor back in the day that would often shout, "Just get off your ****ing high horse and tell the truth!"

Several times, we had to write articles about controversial subjects, like death penalty and immigration, detailing both sides of the issue. His requirement was that he should not be able to tell which side of the issue we were on.

Fiction is not journalism. Journalism is intended to be a verbal photograph. And even then, all it takes is a little roam through some microfiche to realize journalists have never been neutral either. All perception is driven by the culture of the perceiver.

Look, I get it. I don't like being preached to, either, but I promise you, all those authors who churn out the White Guys In Space narratives absolutely believe they're neutral and I'm just being a SJW jerk.

The point being what comes across as preachy to you isn't going to come across as preachy to everyone. It all depends on your worldview, and how you feel the work attacks that worldview.

And I'll admit I dislike terms like "preachy," because they're too often applied to any piece of fiction that suggests life is not The Donna Reed Show, and maybe never was.

indianroads · Apr 24, 2020

Fiction is not journalism. Journalism is intended to be a verbal photograph. And even then, all it takes is a little roam through some microfiche to realize journalists have never been neutral either. All perception is driven by the culture of the perceiver.

Look, I get it. I don't like being preached to, either, but I promise you, all those authors who churn out the White Guys In Space narratives absolutely believe they're neutral and I'm just being a SJW jerk.

The point being what comes across as preachy to you isn't going to come across as preachy to everyone. It all depends on your worldview, and how you feel the work attacks that worldview.

And I'll admit I dislike terms like "preachy," because they're too often applied to any piece of fiction that suggests life is not The Donna Reed Show, and maybe never was.

In those terms, all my work would be preachy then. I do try my best to accurately describe what happens from the MC's POV, and leave it to the reader to decide if it is to their liking or not.

Perhaps I should have used the term pontificate instead of preachy?

lizmonster · Apr 24, 2020

indianroads said:
In those terms, all my work would be preachy then. I do try my best to accurately describe what happens from the MC's POV, and leave it to the reader to decide if it is to their liking or not.

This is what I mean when I say no writer is neutral. You are choosing the MC, and the MC's perceptions. You are presenting your MC's universe. That's a choice. It's not a neutral one. You're telling your story for a reason. You're saying something, and you're doing it on purpose. "The reader should decide how they feel about X" isn't neutral. You're choosing to hold up X for the reader's scrutiny.

The OP, for example, has mentioned wanting to make readers consider whether or not Nazis are redeemable. He may indeed write the story such that the narrative doesn't appear to take sides on that. But the choice of the question to present is not neutral, and it's not apolitical. It's certainly not objective, and I'd argue that genuinely engaging fiction can't be.

indianroads said:
Perhaps I should have used the term pontificate instead of preachy?

I don't think that'd make a difference, do you? Without a generally-accepted definition of either of those words in context, all they're describing is a particular reader's response to a work. They say nothing about the work itself.

indianroads · Apr 24, 2020

This is what I mean when I say no writer is neutral. You are choosing the MC, and the MC's perceptions. You are presenting your MC's universe. That's a choice. It's not a neutral one. You're telling your story for a reason. You're saying something, and you're doing it on purpose. "The reader should decide how they feel about X" isn't neutral. You're choosing to hold up X for the reader's scrutiny.

The OP, for example, has mentioned wanting to make readers consider whether or not Nazis are redeemable. He may indeed write the story such that the narrative doesn't appear to take sides on that. But the choice of the question to present is not neutral, and it's not apolitical. It's certainly not objective, and I'd argue that genuinely engaging fiction can't be.

Good points, and you're correct about authors not being neutral - believe me, the journalism assignments were pretty tough - and I completely agree that fiction is a different animal.

Some writers go too far IMO. Some time back I started reading (never finished) a SciFi book were a group of people absorbed nanobots that were on a passing comet - their abilities changed and (as my partner likes to say) zany adventures ensued. It was an interesting premise, BUT, a group that was written as illiterate dummies all of which were the same color set out to kill the nano-subjects. Pages went by, filled with xenophobic garbage, so, whenever I think about preaching or pontification, that's the book I recall.

My first book was about a kid that was separated by the state from his criminal parents. He went through juvie, foster care, etc. I just told the story and never offered a solution. He went through hard times, and so some readers might have thought it was preachy - but IMO it wasn't.

We all do the best we can.

Prophecies · Apr 24, 2020

mccardey said:
I do quite a bit of beta-reading IRL, and I have to say I did groan inwardly a little at the re-examine-the-Nazi-stereotype, and the nature of evil thing - only because it comes over my desk so often. I've read at least three of them in the last few years: (Young Nazi, only provider for his ailing mother meets Jewish Girl, Saves Her From Group Rape By Nazi Pals and They Fall in Love was the one I liked least - which I'm sure you're not doing. But just on my desk in the last three or four years, four different writers, all with the same Nazis used for edgy examination of evil, questions of entitlement, nature v nurture, who would I be if..? type of thing.)

Since you've asked for advice, I'd have to say, why Nazism? If your MC is indulging his impulses, do you need Nazism for that? Much like a white Australian writing about the Frontier Wars, I wonder if the story ought to belong to the victims - especially since it's so recent and the damage is still causing chaos and grief. And especially given that you won't work with sensitivity readers because (I'm guessing here) they make you uncomfortable? The time is so recent and comes with so much trauma and grief, I wonder if you need to hang the time-travelling story on it?

There has been some beautiful, beautiful work done in the area you're talking about - both the themes and the times - but I wonder for a new writer, given that so very many new writers choose that exact same place as a starting-point, whether you're not setting yourself up for the added judgement of not having the creative imagination to set it up elsewhere?

That's my wisdom, such as it is. Hope it helps.

ETA: Btw, with regard to the bolded - if your book is misinterpreted by agents or publishers, it will be because your writing allowed it to be. Esp with this setting, and in lit fic, you're going to really have to nail it.

Thank you for your reply, and your last paragraph is right. I must make sure it isn't misinterpreted.

I'm picking Nazism for an extremely personal reason. For one, I have Asperger's, and the Nazis exterminated people like me. This book is my attempt at making sense of it, and trying to find peace. So I'm unsure what you mean by 'this story belongs to the victims' because no, this story belongs to me. I came up with the idea, and I'm willing to write it. I dislike sensitivity readers not because they 'make me uncomfortable' but because they have zero professional qualifications and would add nothing to my story. They also get it wrong so many times, and even if you use one, that won't stop people going after you. It's always sounded scammy and unprofessional, and I know that I will regret using one. Plus, nearly all of them are from Western, wealthy English speaking countries. I could go on with the problems of sensitivity readers all day.

I am firmly against sensitivty readers or 'this story belongs to the reader' because authors, no matter their race, have the right to explore their literary interests. I want my book to be judged by its quality, not by my personal traits that I can't change.

Although I disagree with alot of what you said, you are correct about cliches. I'll keep that in mind. After a long sleep last night, and must thought, I think that's why it must be about Nazism and the Holocaust, because it causes so much pain and angst. Plus, I'm making a wider point about how we interact with history. Time travel is essential.

Thanks again for your words.

mccardey · Apr 24, 2020

Prophecies said:
I dislike sensitivity readers not because they 'make me uncomfortable' but because they have zero professional qualifications and would add nothing to my story. They also get it wrong so many times, and even if you use one, that won't stop people going after you. It's always sounded scammy and unprofessional, and I know that I will regret using one. Plus, nearly all of them are from Western, wealthy English speaking countries. I could go on with the problems of sensitivity readers all day.

Oh no - that's okay...

Prophecies · Apr 24, 2020

mccardey said:
Oh no - that's okay...

It's okay that we disagree. But are you trying to be snarky with me? To be honest, I'm not in the mood.

mccardey · Apr 24, 2020

Prophecies said:
It's okay that we disagree. But are you trying to be snarky with me? To be honest, I'm not in the mood.

Quite a few people here do sensitivity readings to help other writers. It's a little bit disrespectful to refer to them as scammy. Among other things.

Odile_Blud · Apr 24, 2020

I think your idea sounds interesting. It sounds like it will explore some pretty challenging subjects and that's great. I'm interested in reading it!

Prophecies · Apr 24, 2020

mccardey said:
Quite a few people here do sensitivity readings to help other writers. It's a little bit disrespectful to refer to them as scammy. Among other things.

Well, they'll just have to disagree with me on that. I find sensitivity reading highly unethical. That's my opinion, and people will just have to deal with it. I'm not going to lie on my own thread, or remain silent on something I feel strongly about. You can't go through life without criticism for your actions, and sensitivity readers need to know that. I know it all too well. Honestly, rereading your original post, I found it disrespectful for you to say that the story 'belongs to the victims' and your presumption that I'm not one. As I said, I have Asperger's, and the Nazis exterminated people like me. Did I make a big, snarky comment about that? No.

Can we get back on topic?

Prophecies · Apr 24, 2020

Odile_Blud said:
I think your idea sounds interesting. It sounds like it will explore some pretty challenging subjects and that's great. I'm interested in reading it!

Thank you, and I'm excited to share my progress on other AW threads.

Helix · Apr 24, 2020

Prophecies said:
Well, they'll just have to disagree with me on that. I find sensitivity reading highly unethical. That's my opinion, and people will just have to deal with it. I'm not going to lie on my own thread, or remain silent on something I feel strongly about. You can't go through life without criticism for your actions, and sensitivity readers need to know that. I know it all too well. Honestly, rereading your original post, I found it disrespectful for you to say that the story 'belongs to the victims' and your presumption that I'm not one. As I said, I have Asperger's, and the Nazis exterminated people like me. Did I make a big, snarky comment about that? No.

Can we get back on topic?

You'll have to deal with it if people disagree with you, too. This goes both ways.

You also have absolutely no idea about the backgrounds and experiences of other people on this forum.

Writing About Controversial Subjects: Nazism, WWII, Modern Germany, etc.

Prophecies

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

Prophecies

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Prophecies

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

Prophecies

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

stephenf

mccardey

The Black Prince

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

Prophecies

mccardey

Prophecies

mccardey

Odile_Blud

-_-

Prophecies

Prophecies

Helix

socially distancing