How to critique someone who takes everything harshly?

starrystorm · Apr 8, 2020

I beta with someone occasionally. She usually shows me her new projects--the plan, the characters, and sometimes the first chapters or so. Now this person is a brilliant writer and is so creative and funny with her works.Today she showed me the first thirty pages of a new project she had showed me a rough draft of in the past. I was super excited to read this but also cautious because I know she takes crits like she would a punch to the face. So I read this story and told her my thoughts. This wasn't emailed or written so I didn't have time to word myself decently. I told her my honest opinion (that it was probably a little darker than what she normally writes). I could see by the look on her face that I had said something wrong. I try to explain but she redirects me into a corner. I try to tell her my favorite things but it's too late. She bursts into tears and hasn't started a conversation since.

I am her only early beta, and I constantly feel like the bad guy in these situations. I always feel like whatever I say is going to be taken harshly. 99% of the books of hers that I've looked at she's trunked soon after. I feel so horrible and sick the way she twists my words. I wish she would realize that not everything I say is a threat. I don't crit hard, but I feel like I rip her to pieces when she does this. Please help!

EDIT: I will say the genre of the sample she gave me was something I don't read in or write in (and she knew this). I feel like if someone who loved her genre more had read it, she would have been showered in great crits.

Woollybear · Apr 8, 2020

Without knowing, it's hard to say, but FWIW there are one or two people I've learned (IRL) to only say nice things to. They seem to be able to carry on writing, then, being bolstered by some praise, and I trust they will get better. I mean, what are you going to do? Sacrifice the friendship over honest critique? Of course not. What they wrote is very personal to them. They are vulnerable. They need kindness.

Say nice things. It's just easier.

I don't do that here, FTR, because ... well I guess AW has a reputation that makes it easier to be blunt. But IRL, with a couple people, yeah, OK, praise is clearly what they're looking for and not my job to tell them they should look for something else.

Your friend doesn't want your honest critical thoughts. That's how your story reads to me. It's not on you to make them want your honest critical thoughts. Give them either kind thoughts, or neutral thoughts.

"I didn't really have an opinion. It was okay."

That's pretty mushy and may convey the point that it didn't light your fire without leading to tears.

I don't know. So many touchy feelings on this whole critique thing.

starrystorm · Apr 8, 2020

Thank you Patty. I talked to this person again, and they were just having a bad day. I think I just caught them at the wrong time, wrong place. Everyone's so stressed these days. But I do think your advice is extremely helpful.

lizmonster · Apr 8, 2020

starrystorm said:
I am her only early beta, and I constantly feel like the bad guy in these situations. I always feel like whatever I say is going to be taken harshly. 99% of the books of hers that I've looked at she's trunked soon after. I feel so horrible and sick the way she twists my words. I wish she would realize that not everything I say is a threat. I don't crit hard, but I feel like I rip her to pieces when she does this. Please help!

Here's what I would do, and I understand it might not work in your situation: I'd lie to her. I'd tell her only good things about her work - be specific if you do indeed find good things in there, but otherwise make up something innocuous that's not precisely a lie, like "your imagery here is really vivid" or "this character feels very real."

And I'd work to ease myself out of the beta relationship.

starrystorm said:
EDIT: I will say the genre of the sample she gave me was something I don't read in or write in (and she knew this). I feel like if someone who loved her genre more had read it, she would have been showered in great crits.

A "great crit" isn't necessarily a positive one. A great crit is one that provides the writer something to work with, guidelines about what does and doesn't work, maybe even some hints as to the right direction. It's not purely negative feedback - it includes positive things as well - but it's substantive, actionable information.

My opinion? This person is not ready for critique, and expending energy on producing one for her is not a good use of your time. That doesn't mean she won't be ready for them someday, but right now she's still at the stage where she needs unconditional encouragement. I mean no judgement by that - it's not at all uncommon for a writer to need that for a while.

Woollybear · Apr 8, 2020

I hope your friend is doing better now.

I like when people say up front what kind of critique they can handle. IRL I often ask what sort of critique people want.

Sonya Heaney · Apr 8, 2020

Wow, she's going to be in for a shock if her goal is to be traditionally published. Editors don't have time to hold hands, and they're not going to work with someone who won't listen to their suggestions.

(Also, in this case I'd probably do what Patty and lizmonster said.)

MaeZe · Apr 8, 2020

starrystorm said:
Thank you Patty. I talked to this person again, and they were just having a bad day. I think I just caught them at the wrong time, wrong place. Everyone's so stressed these days. But I do think your advice is extremely helpful.

I can so relate to the stress. I'm glad you talked to them again.

I'm not sure I think "it's darker" is criticism. Sometimes you can't say anything right to people. But fortunately most friends get over it.

Pastelnudes · Apr 8, 2020

Sympathies to you, starrystorm, and your friend. She's lucky to have you, really she is, but this just sounds too painful for all involved.

veinglory · Apr 9, 2020

If this is your friend, just don't critique. You can already tell it's not really what she wants.

Maryn · Apr 9, 2020

My rule is that I do not critique for friends, especially friends who cannot handle negative opinions.

While every writer needs and enjoys hearing praise, it doesn't help us improve the work. It does help maintain friendships. Hence my rule.

I've become friends with the people in my tiny critique group, but we have all agreed that we will continue to critique as objectively as if we weren't especially fond of one another.

We're glad to hear it was nothing worse than a bad day, but I would probably re-evaluate whether I should critique for this person at all, especially for works in a genre I don't even read.

Maryn, who sticks to what she knows

indianroads · Apr 9, 2020

I've taught martial arts for quite some time, and of course have encountered this issue. The issue is teaching (or giving a critique) without discouragement.

Example:
David's forward stance is awful, it's weak, un-anchored, too narrow, and his balance is off.
I say:
David, you're doing great, your front foot and knee position are right where they should be. What I want you to try though, is stepping out a bit wider and dropping the heel of your rear foot to the ground. (I also explain the purpose of these modifications).

David makes some, maybe all of the changes I suggested, his stance gets better and I give praise.

Later - I make more adjustments, and eventually David's technique is excellent.

I suggest mentioning what the writer is doing well at the start, then adding instruction for the low hanging fruit (what can be fixed easily), then once the writer has those techniques in hand, go back and give more suggestions.

We want to help people get better and continue writing, not make them feel horrible about their efforts and drive them away.

MythMonger · Apr 9, 2020

Critting, not unlike writing, is a learned skill. Sometimes the blunt way is best. For example, that's the kind of response I need to get better -- knock me over the head.

Your friend apparently isn't that way. My guess is that you want to keep both the friendship and the beta relationship alive. Learn techniques that work for your friend. IR gave a good example of one way to do that.

VeryBigBeard · Apr 9, 2020

This is one of the most difficult things, because you get backed into a corner by being friends. You want to support a friend, but that's in conflict with her developing as a writer.

A lot of people who work in creative fields professionally find they have to keep professional and personal relationships quite separate. It's one (of many) reasons people won't read your script. It's just not going to end well for anyone.

When this happens, in addition to what lizmonster suggested, you can also try to find other ways to help your friend. If she's just sending you plans and outlines, it's a lot easier to just... find the potential and push her there. What she wants is motivation--which, fine, we need that. What she's not ready for is proper critique. But if she's at the point where she's just planning and writing a few pages, she's not ready for critique from anyone.

That's okay. It takes time to learn to accept feedback, and, IMO, if the writer hasn't completed a draft, that feedback is likely to be less-than-applicable anyway. A lot of more extroverted writers (they exist!) tend to seek out crit too early and even if they take it well, they end up polishing Chapter 1 again and again.

Best thing your friend can do is just write the damn thing. As someone who's been through the slog, you can probably help a lot with getting through it, and trust that she'll learn far more from that process than even a really good constructive crit at this point.

Dave.C.Robinson · Apr 9, 2020

It's always hard to crit for a friend but here are a couple of things I can suggest. 1) Start and end with positives. This is big for some people because it gives them something to feel good about at both ends of the critique and they'll have a more positive reaction to the whole.2) When you aren't sure how someone will take something you can always tell them what you got from it and ask if that's what they intended.

KBooks · Apr 9, 2020

Starry, I wonder if this is a case where the fact that you two have a real-life relationship is impacting her ability to accept crits from you in a neutral way, rather than making the medicine easier to swallow, so to speak. For me, hearing a stranger tell me something wasn't working and here's why would come across totally differently than if my mom told me it sucked, no matter how nicely. My mom is someone who I expect to be in my corner no matter what I do. I wonder if because you and this other author are close, it might be better if she let someone else crit her work?

Woollybear · Apr 9, 2020

I've used Dave's described approach more, lately, and it seems to work well. In addition, you can consider only putting one critical point between those tasty sandwich ends. This is along the lines of what Indian Roads was saying.

Your pacing is really good.
I wanted to be a little deeper in the character's head.
But again, I was so impressed with how easily the story moved.

Voice, dialog, description, subject matter, stakes, tension, world building, language--there're so many goodies to choose from for the bread on that critique sandwich.

I also agree with KBooks. I expect different kinds of critique from a Facebook writer than from my mom.

Chase · Apr 9, 2020

Sonya Heaney said:
Editors don't have time to hold hands, and they're not going to work with someone who won't listen to their suggestions.

Maryn said:
My rule is that I do not critique for friends, especially friends who cannot handle negative opinions.

Too true. I have 12 clients on my weekly worksheet and am editing chapters for four of them this week. Editing is a bit like grading papers (especially stories in creative writing) in that I've learned over two decades to be as positive as possible, but often I must offer unpopular comments and suggestions. However, I'm okay if they don't incorporate my pearls of wisdom. Otherwise, I'd be exactly like writers who can't handle negatives.

I'm Christmas and birthday card friendly with all my clients as well as we text each other regularly, but two are personal friends--one I hunt and load ammo with and one who is my optician. Both struggle to a degree with spelling, punctuation, grammar, and other elements of writing, but they insist they're getting good use along with all the abuse. One is newer to writing, and I admit needs more kid gloves than the other who's started to sell his novels.

I'm sure I've not always been as positive as I could be, but when we're at loggerheads, my client is the boss and makes the final decision of what goes in the manuscript.
I don't think I could work very long with a boss who cried or wouldn't speak to me. :Shrug:

talktidy · Apr 9, 2020

You say she is a talented writer, so I see no harm in lavishing praise on her work as long as it is valid. When you encounter a problem, it may be useful to say -- while quietly looking the other way as to the veracity of the statement -- that xyz is an issue you yourself have wrestled with, and you have found the following treatments/solutions may similarly work wonders for her. You will need to explain why xyz is a problem and you could possibly mention what other betas have suggested serves as a correction.

In other words direct the criticism away from the specifics of her work. Make it a we, rather than a you thing. I am aware that may be a very fraught course to negotiate, but if she is the sort to be paralyzed by critique, then you may consider that may be the route to consider.

Layla Nahar · Apr 9, 2020

I second lizmonster's response.

mccardey · Apr 9, 2020

indianroads said:
I suggest mentioning what the writer is doing well at the start, then adding instruction for the low hanging fruit (what can be fixed easily), then once the writer has those techniques in hand, go back and give more suggestions.

We want to help people get better and continue writing, not make them feel horrible about their efforts and drive them away.

Welll - it depends. I think it depends. If your writer is a hobby-writer or a child, then yes by all means load them up with positivity, but if they're professional or hoping-to-be professional, then I doubt this approach will work. It's easy in an immediate physical context (ballet, martial arts, singing etc) to make suggestions that hide themselves in positives, but it's no help to a writer if they have to keep redrafting because you've hidden all the crit in case they give up. I would hate to come back for a second opinion to someone who said the equivalent of "Good work with the grammar issue! Now there's one other thing..." ad nauseum.

If your writer hopes to be professional, treat them as a pro. Don't be mean, but be clear. And remind them that this is just your opinion and they're welcome to take it onboard or not.

indianroads · Apr 9, 2020

Welll - it depends. I think it depends. If your writer is a hobby-writer or a child, then yes by all means load them up with positivity, but if they're professional or hoping-to-be professional, then I doubt this approach will work. It's easy in an immediate physical context (ballet, martial arts, singing etc) to make suggestions that hide themselves in positives, but it's no help to a writer if they have to keep redrafting because you've hidden all the crit in case they give up. I would hate to come back for a second opinion to someone who said the equivalent of "Good work with the grammar issue! Now there's one other thing..." ad nauseum.

If your writer hopes to be professional, treat them as a pro. Don't be mean, but be clear. And remind them that this is just your opinion and they're welcome to take it onboard or not.

Agree and disagree.

The amount of feedback I give a white belt is vastly different than what I give a black belt. Certainly, I'm much easier on someone that's new, or relatively new to the art than I am with someone that has been practicing for a decade or more. If all a student hears from me is negative, they will stop listening. Critique is a delicate balance. Often I use the phrase 'what you're doing with X is good, but here's how you can make it better'.

I wouldn't expect a white belt author to turn out an epic best seller that's acclaimed around the world. If you saw errors from someone with low level of experience, would you butcher everything they wrote, or would you just pick the low hanging fruit? If it gets too bloody, the inexperienced will likely give up and walk away, and IMO that would be a shame.

mccardey · Apr 9, 2020

indianroads said:
The amount of feedback I give a white belt is vastly different than what I give a black belt. Certainly, I'm much easier on someone that's new, or relatively new to the art than I am with someone that has been practicing for a decade or more.

Yes, but per your example upthread, you're talking about something a student can fix with a change of posture. Writing isn't like that - the process is slower

indianroads said:
If all a student hears from me is negative, they will stop listening.

Of course. No-one is suggesting the beta doesn't also confirm the positives. I'm just questioning the need to deal with one negative at a time, and "hiding" critique. Remember - we're talking about critique, not criticism.

indianroads said:
I wouldn't expect a white belt author to turn out an epic best seller that's acclaimed around the world.

And I would? No - I wouldn't.

indianroads said:
f you saw errors from someone with low level of experience, would you butcher everything they wrote, or would you just pick the low hanging fruit? If it gets too bloody, the inexperienced will likely give up and walk away, and IMO that would be a shame.

I don't butcher, I don't criticise, and I don't pick fruit. I give honest, clear, considered critique - positive and negative - with the rider that it's just my opinion.

My point is that I treat the writer with the dignity a writer should expect. I don't make a decision about how best to stop them from giving up. I support them by assuming they won't - unless, as I said, they're a child or purely writing as a hobby.

indianroads · Apr 9, 2020

Yes, but per your example upthread, you're talking about something a student can fix with a change of posture. Writing isn't like that - the process is slower

You should try martial art training... it's not as not as simple as you think. Earning a black belt (in a legitimate school) can take as much as 10 years. It's an ART, just like writing, painting, and sculpture - except the work you are doing is on yourself.

I don't butcher, I don't criticise, and I don't pick fruit. I give honest, clear, considered critique - positive and negative - with the rider that it's just my opinion.

I'll take your word for that. I just related my experience as an instructor. YMMV.

My point is that I treat the writer with the dignity a writer should expect. I don't make a decision about how best to stop them from giving up. I support them by assuming they won't - unless, as I said, they're a child or purely writing as a hobby.

Until you sell a book and can make a living off it, writing is a hobby IMO.

mccardey · Apr 9, 2020

indianroads said:
You should try martial art training... it's not as not as simple as you think.

?

I haven't said teaching martial arts was simple. I'm saying that critiquing, or indeed beta-reading a novel is not really comparable to teaching a physical skill. (For starters, it's not generally about teaching. At best, it's about the writer being able to learn.)

ETA:

indianroads said:
Until you sell a book and can make a living off it, writing is a hobby IMO.

Wow - that's pretty hardline... :whip:

be frank · Apr 10, 2020

indianroads said:
Until you sell a book and can make a living off it, writing is a hobby IMO.

Thank you, I needed a laugh today.

How to critique someone who takes everything harshly?

starrystorm

Woollybear

starrystorm

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Woollybear

Sonya Heaney

MaeZe

Pastelnudes

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Maryn

Baaa!

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

MythMonger

Willing to Learn

VeryBigBeard

Preparing for winter

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

KBooks

Woollybear

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

talktidy

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

mccardey

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

mccardey

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

mccardey

be frank

not a bloke, not named frank