The petri dish that is Liberty University

Roxxsmom · Apr 3, 2020

It's not just states that have declared religious denominations to be "essential" that are having issues either. Here in my own county, there is a Church that is still holding face-to-face fellowhip meetings in people's homes, and one member has already died and 71 members (or people associated with members), including the pastor are known to have the virus (not that Sacramento county has about 300 diagnosed cases total so far, so this Church represents a high percentage of the whole). The county keeps ordering them to shut down, and their response thus far has been to say, "Leave us alone!"

https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article241715346.html

So evidently, the State and local laws insisting that non essential services and businesses shut down have little in the way of teeth. I know the Mayor of LA finally got the utilities to shut water and power off for nonessential businesses that refused to shut down (wish the article had named them so I'd know never to patronize them when I go down there), but it appears that repeated warnings from police had no effect. If arrests can't be made, then some people will call the city or county's bluff in this. It's probably a very small percentage who are bad actors, but as this Church shows, they can have a major impact on the spread of the disease.

On the other hand, I don't blame cops for not wanting to arrest people right now. Doing so exposes them to the virus, and there's already an issue with jails and prisons with the virus, so they are letting some out on early release during the crisis.

frimble3 · Apr 3, 2020

Roxxsmom said:
I know the Mayor of LA finally got the utilities to shut water and power off for nonessential businesses that refused to shut down (wish the article had named them so I'd know never to patronize them when I go down there.)The Utilities are a public bureaucracy, they've got the list, it's just a matter of waiting for someone to be ticked off enough to leak it. Possibly a competitor? but it appears that repeated warnings from police had no effect. If arrests can't be made, then some people will call the city or county's bluff in this. It's probably a very small percentage who are bad actors, but as this Church shows, they can have a major impact on the spread of the disease.

On the other hand, I don't blame cops for not wanting to arrest people right now. Doing so exposes them to the virus, and there's already an issue with jails and prisons with the virus, so they are letting some out on early release during the crisis.

So, which are they letting out? The infected, so they don't have to deal with them, or the healthy, so they don't risk the public's health?

aurora borealis · Apr 3, 2020

Canadian prisons are looking at doing the same thing and their plan is to release people coming up to the end of their sentence, model prisoners, and possibly people convicted of non-violent offenses.

Are police not able to arrest people for ignoring the shut-down order and then release them after being processed instead of having them sit in a detention center? It doesn't solve the issue of police exposure during arrest but it would mean there are consequences.

Edited to add: Canadian provincial prisons also have a lot of people who are awaiting trial who were denied bail or who could not afford to pay it and who are still legally innocent.

Roxxsmom · Apr 3, 2020

aurora borealis said:
Are police not able to arrest people for ignoring the shut-down order and then release them after being processed instead of having them sit in a detention center? It doesn't solve the issue of police exposure during arrest but it would mean there are consequences.
.

I don't know. Here in CA, the Governor and local agencies have said their goal is to educate, not to impose stiff fines or jail time, even though violations are considered misdemeanors. The possibility of imposing a fine is there, at least, but I am guessing that they are worried about the optics of punishing a religious congregation. There's that whole mess with church and state, and in some states religious groups and particular businesses are already suing on constitutional grounds over being declared non-essential.

There is ample precedent for restrictions on some constitutional freedoms during national emergencies (during both World Wars, there was out and out censorship of the press and prosecutions of critics under sedition laws and so on), and there have been all manner of curfews and other restrictions on when and where and why people could be out and about during emergencies. There is also the fact that freedom of speech, religion and the right to keep and bear arms are not being restricted in any sense right now, there are simply changes in the means of access (since we can speak, worship and purchase things online still).

But I imagine states still want to avoid the divisiveness of legal battles right now. The last thing they want is to look like "bad guys" cracking down on some "poor little Christians" who "simply want to have fellowship meetings in their private homes."

I imagine the tide of public sentiment may turn against them as more and more members of the community are infected by this cluster. Because these folks will not just be spreading it among their own friends and family. They shop at the same grocery stores as the rest of us, for instance.

As an aside, Sacramento's Slavic Christian community, including this particular church, have a history of vicious homophobia.

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/12301471

Cindyt · Apr 3, 2020

Calla Lily said:
Frimble, message me and we'll Facetime or Skype and I'll show you how to knit/crochet a few basic things.

We have a church across the street. The pastor was a cool guy. The church actually followed the precepts from Acts. I don't go to church (surprise?), but I know the history of Christianity (not surprised).

Then he joined Samaritan's Purse. In just over a year, I blocked him on social media. He ate Falwell's poison like it was candy. What a waste.

What these clowns don't understand--or maybe they do and are afraid they'll lose a penny if their followers/students don't gather in reality. The love of money and all that. But, see, there's a church in my hometown that is gung ho for Christ like nobody's business, but guess what? They are gathering virtually.

Roxxsmom · Apr 3, 2020

Cindyt said:
What these clowns don't understand--or maybe they do and are afraid they'll lose a penny if their followers/students don't gather in reality. The love of money and all that. But, see, there's a church in my hometown that is gung ho for Christ like nobody's business, but guess what? They are gathering virtually.

Lots of churches are. Ironically, so is that Slavic Christian "megachurch" I mentioned. It's in-house fellowship groups that are still meeting.

As awful as this viral outbreak is, imagine how much worse it would be for everyone without the internet.

Back in 1918-1919, during the great influenza waves, they closed businesses, workplaces, churches etc., and the streets were empty, and people had no good way of checking in with loved ones regularly, nor of keeping abreast of what was going on nor of working or teaching from a distance. Some people violated the orders, and some businesses stayed open and some churches still met outdoors, even though they were in violation of orders. Sometimes they were dealt with very harshly. There was a war going on, so news sources were censored in the US and most European countries. People who think our government is larger and more intrusive than it has been in the past have no idea what it used to be able to get away with. People who think the media is lying to them don't know what it was like when it was legal for the government to censor them and prevent anyone from publishing death figures or information that might be deemed "demoralizing."

Americans have freedom of speech and information at a level that is unprecedented in our history.

MaeZe · Apr 3, 2020

Mosques Stay Open in Pakistan Even as Coronavirus Death Toll Rises

India and Pakistan have serious issues with religious beliefs getting in the way of social distancing. It won't be limited to a few countries.

cbenoi1 · Apr 4, 2020

Roxxsmom said:
It's not just states that have declared religious denominations to be "essential" that are having issues either. Here in my own county, there is a Church that is still holding face-to-face fellowhip meetings in people's homes, and one member has already died and 71 members (or people associated with members), including the pastor are known to have the virus (not that Sacramento county has about 300 diagnosed cases total so far, so this Church represents a high percentage of the whole). The county keeps ordering them to shut down, and their response thus far has been to say, "Leave us alone!"

And God rid the Earth of science deniers.

-cb

Roxxsmom · Apr 4, 2020

And here's another one, sigh. This is an interesting issue. We're getting a number of these stubborn denominations in CA, which has not declared churches to be essential services that can stay open. But it appears that no one is being fined for this.

https://www.kcra.com/article/lodi-c...ite-stay-at-home-order-amid-pandemic/32025578

Cross Culture Christian Center on Ham Lane said it has a right to be open and gather for worship. The church, which has been open to parishioners during the coronavirus pandemic, said it hired a lawyer to defend its First Amendment rights.

Police received reports Sunday of dozens of cars at the church, where there was a church service. Police said it's a violation of the California health and safety code and California penal code.

The church said officers interrupted service last Wednesday. Officers called it a public nuisance.

One thing that is pretty clear--relying on all people to exercise common sense is pretty futile.

The petri dish that is Liberty University

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

aurora borealis

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Cindyt

Gettin wiggy wit it

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

MaeZe

cbenoi1

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido