The Covid-19 virus

MaeZe · Mar 30, 2020

Bing Z said:
I know about private sector/NGO donations (eg by the Gates Foundation) to China, which apparently the State Department had coordinated. I do not know if the Chinese like Jack Ma or Chinese Red Cross have reciprocated enough.

The ambiguity is about the US government's aid (the 'cupboard' thing that was discussed upthread.) The State Department claimed they were preparing to send up to $100m worth of aid (2/7-20). The China government claimed (3/20) they have never received any. Trump never blasted the China for denying it. So the CUPBOARD thing likely never happened.

On the other hand, Washington Post reported there were 1.5 million expired N95 masks sitting in an Indiana warehouse., and the California Governor claims 170 ventilators sent from Trump administration were 'not working.' I have a feeling these are not the only such incidents, and so government oversight is probably why the cupboard is empty. Whether Obama or Trump should take the blame is another story.

I hope Indiana recognizes they can use those expired masks. A friend of mine at the fire department brought me some of the expired masks because they weren't going to use them. In turn I gave all my masks to my DIL to take to the hospital she works at.

The expired masks have deteriorated straps, but the mask part is okay. Just a little tricky to use but not impossible.

Lyv · Mar 30, 2020

I'm kind of freaked out that being in hospice means a lot of healthcare workers in and out of my house, knowing they also have others patients. They don't have the right kind of masks to protect themselves, or their clients. I love my nurse and other staff, and want them safe. Worried for them and for my husband, who as things progress (if they do. I seriously must be a zombie) will have to interact more closely, physically, with them to care for me.

MaeZe · Mar 30, 2020

Roxxsmom said:
They don't know that for sure, but when a virus is constructed the way this one is, it's quite likely this is generally true. The lipid layer would not survive stomach acids and digestive enzymes in the majority of people. [snipped for space]

Taking all that into account, my point is they are making a declaration of safety based on nothing but an educated hypothesis. And from that last link of yours, more evidence being ignored.

Where's the evidence based medicine here?

I just found this: WHO and the CDC are ignoring their own guidelines:

WHO VIRUSES IN FOOD:
SCIENTIFIC ADVICE TO SUPPORT RISK MANAGEMENT ACTIVITIES

... and the Coronaviruses, which contain
an envelope. In general these viruses are persistent in the environment and are able to resist
(mild) food production processes routinely used to inactivate or control bacterial pathogens in
contaminated foods. In addition, some viruses may occasionally be transmitted via food,
although their typical mode of transmission is different, as has been documented for Severe
Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS)-causing Coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and Highly
Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI) virus. ...

Respiratory infection
HPAI virus H5N1 1 Potential public health impact, emerging infection, plausible
foodborne transmission but direct exposure to infected chickens
main risk factor
SARS Coronavirus 1 Potential public health impact, emerging infection, foodborne
transmission
NOTES: * Group 1 viruses met one or more of the pre-defined criteria. Group 2 viruses met none of the pre-defined
criteria.

2.1.5 Emerging viruses (Nipah virus, Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI)
virus, SARS-causing Coronavirus)
The potential for foodborne transmission is a concern with every new emerging infection, and
ruling out such concerns is often difficult. Although initially considered to be unlikely, faecaloral
spread in particular conditions has been proven for the primarily respiratory pathogens
Nipah virus, HPAI virus and SARS-CoV. Infectious avian influenza virus has been cultured
from frozen exported meat, raising questions about the possible dissemination of such viruses
via the food chain. Although this mode of spread is considered to be rare, the potential
consequences of such spread dictated that such viruses be considered by the meeting.

Sure, people have to eat. And we all make choices what level of risk we want to take. I am not washing my clothes when I come in from a trip to the store. I do use hand sanitizer after handling my purse and keys and the mail. It's really hard to keep up the level of safety I would like to. So I keep taking my temperature and stressing over 'was I careful enough.'

I will eat cooked take-out if I can reheat it or if it's something like pizza that goes from the oven to the box. I choose not to take the risk on take-out that requires a lot of post cooking handling.

YMMV (everyone, not directed at Roxxsmom) and I make no judgement about what level of protection other people are taking. I just want to share what I know.

MaeZe · Mar 30, 2020

It happened again, some official public health expert on public radio just now gave this rationale why this is not airborne:

Her reason, of the cases we see, they involve close contact.

Really? What about all the cases turning up who don't know who they were exposed to or when?

Confirmation bias does not belong in the most important medical recommendations of our time. They could be killing people.

Roxxsmom · Mar 30, 2020

MaeZe said:
It happened again, some official public health expert on public radio just now gave this rationale why this is not airborne:

Her reason, of the cases we see, they involve close contact.

Really? What about all the cases turning up who don't know who they were exposed to or when?

Confirmation bias does not belong in the most important medical recommendations of our time. They could be killing people.

That is an amazing example of tautological thinking. Since many sites are still only testing people who have had close contact to a normal case, we assume all cases are spread by close contact (the actual data say otherwise anyway--the overwhelming majority of confirmed cases in the US are of unknown origin now).

In any case, close contact means you live with a person known to have it, or spent a relatively long time in a known case's proximity. There are different ways a person could contract it under those circumstances, including airborne spread!

MaeZe said:
Taking all that into account, my point is they are making a declaration of safety based on nothing but an educated hypothesis. And from that last link of yours, more evidence being ignored.

Where's the evidence based medicine here?

I just found this: WHO and the CDC are ignoring their own guidelines:

WHO VIRUSES IN FOOD:
SCIENTIFIC ADVICE TO SUPPORT RISK MANAGEMENT ACTIVITIES

Sure, people have to eat. And we all make choices what level of risk we want to take. I am not washing my clothes when I come in from a trip to the store. I do use hand sanitizer after handling my purse and keys and the mail. It's really hard to keep up the level of safety I would like to. So I keep taking my temperature and stressing over 'was I careful enough.'

I will eat cooked take-out if I can reheat it or if it's something like pizza that goes from the oven to the box. I choose not to take the risk on take-out that requires a lot of post cooking handling.

YMMV (everyone, not directed at Roxxsmom) and I make no judgement about what level of protection other people are taking. I just want to share what I know.

Oh, I don't disagree with you. At the very least, when they are basing a recommendation on their best knowledge or educated guess about transmissibility, they should make it clear that they don't know for certain, and people should take the precautions that make sense to them, given their own risk profile. When I get takeout, I've carefully removed the food from the original containers and microwaved it. And I haven't been getting salads or things that are to be eaten raw via that route. And I have a whole decontamination routine (done in the garage) for the food I bring back from the grocery store now.

Dealing with fresh vegetables and fruits from the store is a bit harder. Some, like apples, oranges and bananas can be washed with a bit of dish soap and warm water, and rinsed well. Bit things with rougher surfaces like berries, lettuce, spinach etc. are a bit harder, both because rinsing all the soap off is difficult, and because the virus may be hiding in little crannies. We've been rinsing and soaking these for about 15 min before eating. I don't know if it's enough, but I really don't want to give up fresh greens and berries for the next few months. I'm also getting this stuff packaged in those awful clamshell packages (no choice with the fresh berries anyway), which would likely reduce the risk of someone sneezing or coughing on them, or touching them, in store at least. There is always a risk of food-borne illness with fresh produce that can't be peeled or scrubbed really well and is eaten raw, of course, with those periodic e-coli and salmonella outbreaks.

Snitchcat · Mar 30, 2020

Bing Z said:
I know about private sector/NGO donations (eg by the Gates Foundation) to China, which apparently the State Department had coordinated. I do not know if the Chinese like Jack Ma or Chinese Red Cross have reciprocated enough.

The ambiguity is about the US government's aid (the 'cupboard' thing that was discussed upthread.) The State Department claimed they were preparing to send up to $100m worth of aid (2/7-20). The China government claimed (3/20) they have never received any. Trump never blasted the China for denying it. So the CUPBOARD thing likely never happened.

On the other hand, Washington Post reported there were 1.5 million expired N95 masks sitting in an Indiana warehouse., and the California Governor claims 170 ventilators sent from Trump administration were 'not working.' I have a feeling these are not the only such incidents, and so government oversight is probably why the cupboard is empty. Whether Obama or Trump should take the blame is another story.

I thought I saw somewhere that Jack Ma was sending $1bn worth of masks? Or was that the Central Government injecting 1bn yuan into the market?

regdog said:
Here's the link to the statement by the State Department

Link

I saw that.

I meant there was no news here (China) about the PPE import from the States. Nothing in English or Chinese.

Albedo · Mar 31, 2020

I browbeat my mum into working from home. It only took three weeks of nagging. Revenge, finally?

Albedo · Mar 31, 2020

(Well, her work suddenly decided the entire workforce could go home. But I'd like to think my only partly not serious threat to come down there and give her boss a talking to had something to do with her come to Jesus and GTF home moment.)

Albedo · Mar 31, 2020

Also, telehealth-for-all is a ... new experience. With a hell of a learning curve.

ElaineA · Mar 31, 2020

Albedo said:
Also, telehealth-for-all is a ... new experience. With a hell of a learning curve.

I saw a funny tweet from a woman talking about her ob/gyn doing all-virtual-visits. It ended with something to the effect of, "and this is how I become a cam girl." (I can't do it justice, but the image had me both laughing and cringing. And glad I don't have to visit an ob/gyn anymore.) :ROFL:

BenPanced · Mar 31, 2020

Meanwhile, the goats have come home to roost...

cbenoi1 · Mar 31, 2020

Super-Musk to the rescue...

Medtronic Shares Ventilation Design Specifications to Accelerate Efforts to Increase Global Ventilator Production
http://newsroom.medtronic.com/news-...-ventilation-design-specifications-accelerate

Medtronic plc (NYSE:MDT), the global leader in medical technology, today announced it is publicly sharing the design specifications for the Puritan Bennett™ 560 (PB 560) to enable participants across industries to evaluate options for rapid ventilator manufacturing to help doctors and patients dealing with COVID-19. This decision is consistent with the recent FDA Guidance and in accordance with the public health and medical response of governmental agencies globally.

Introduced in 2010, the PB 560 is sold in 35 countries around the world. This ventilator’s ability to be used in a range of care settings, as well as its technology and design, make it a solid ventilation solution for manufacturers, inventors, start-ups, and academic institutions seeking to quickly ramp up ventilator design and production. PB 560 product and service manuals, design requirement documents, manufacturing documents, and schematics are now available at Medtronic.com/openventilator. The PB 560 design specifications are available today, software code and other information will follow shortly.

Let me guess. Parts made in China?

I hope countries will start realizing that putting critical equipments, resources, and IP (intellectual property) in the hands of China is not a good idea. Cheap comes at a price...

-cb

Lyv · Mar 31, 2020

Warren to feds: Why did you take Massachusetts’s medical supplies?

Warren also pointed to at least two instances in which Massachusetts lost orders for ventilators and hundreds of respirators after the federal government stepped in — a situation Marylou Sudders, the state’s health and human service secretary, described as: "They take what we order.”

Sudders said the Trump administration also impounded a third order of 3 million masks the state had negotiated to buy earlier in March.

“Massachusetts state officials are continuing to face federal impediments as they scramble to find essential medical equipment to respond to a public health emergency,” Warren wrote in her letter. “This is unacceptable, and I request answers on behalf of the Commonwealth.”

Warren asked Gaynor to explain why the federal government seized the two orders from Massachusetts, and to which state the supplies ultimately went, among a series of other questions in the letter.

Governor Charlie Baker has publicly vented about the roadblocks his administration has faced in tracking down personal protective equipment, including respirators, gloves, and masks. In a call with President Trump on March 19, he said the state had been outbid by the federal government on at least three separate occasions. “I’ve got a feeling that if somebody has a chance to sell to you or to me,” Baker told Trump, “I’m going to lose every one of those.”

Trump should be charged with murder. Not even kidding. This is him intentionally killing people out of revenge and insecurity, and because he thinks it will help him win reelection. This is always who he was, and if you voted for him, you are responsible for this.

Roxxsmom · Mar 31, 2020

Lyv said:
Warren to feds: Why did you take Massachusetts’s medical supplies?

Trump should be charged with murder. Not even kidding. This is him intentionally killing people out of revenge and insecurity, and because he thinks it will help him win reelection. This is always who he was, and if you voted for him, you are responsible for this.

Well, Trump did ask the press to look into what's been happening to all the supplies states are ordering. Now we know, eh?

I'd love to see him and certain others brought up on war crimes, or some kind of treason or high crimes charge at least, but we know how that will play out. Sadly, even if the Dems win everything in November, it would probably be incredibly divisive.

I gave up on ever seeing criminals in government brought to justice when Dick Cheney got away with murder.

MaeZe · Mar 31, 2020

Yes, this needs to be investigated, like looking to see if any of these companies benefitted from Trump's actions and see which of them are his cronies or donating to his campaign.

Business Insider: The federal government outbid states on critical coronavirus supplies after Trump told governors to get their own medical equipment

Baker, a moderate Republican, added, "I've got a feeling that if someone has the chance to sell to you and to sell to me, I am going to lose on every one of those."

Trump chuckled at that and then said the federal government probably offered the manufacturers a better price.

"Price is always a component of that also," Trump said. "And maybe that's why you lost to the feds, okay, I'll tell you, that's probably why."

WTF!!!!!

Then he blamed FEMA.

Later on the call, after the New Mexico government made a similar complaint, Trump said he would tell FEMA to ensure state orders aren't turned down over a conflict with his administration.

I want to know which companies those were that got more money.

frimble3 · Mar 31, 2020

MaeZe said:
Yes, this needs to be investigated, like looking to see if any of these companies benefitted from Trump's actions and see which of them are his cronies or donating to his campaign.

Business Insider: The federal government outbid states on critical coronavirus supplies after Trump told governors to get their own medical equipmentWTF!!!!!

Then he blamed FEMA.

I want to know which companies those were that got more money.

If Trump is yapping about this being 'like a war' and wanting to be a 'wartime President', is 'profiteering' still on the books? I believe the 2007 anti-profiteering legislation was never enacted, but there's gotta be something!
Thiskind of thing has been going on since the Washington fought the Redcoats.

Roxxsmom · Mar 31, 2020

Well, the CDC is now reconsidering their earlier advice not to wear masks unless sick or caring for someone who is sick. Evidently, someone finally read the papers about asymptomatic cases and the potential masks have for containing droplets and aerosols if worn correctly.

The problem, of course, is even hospitals are having trouble getting enough masks now (and health care workers who talk or complain about the problem are being fired by some hospitals, which is crazy, considering how needed health care workers are right now).

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...in-public-health-experts-revisit-the-question

MaeZe · Mar 31, 2020

Re the staff being fired: Let them. Shit, there are serious shortages of doctors and nurses and other health care staff. Some of these hospital administrators can't get out of their typical mindset and adapt to the current crisis.

Hospital administrators will learn soon enough the backlash for that will be swift and painful.

On the supplies and equipment shortage news: Daily Kos: Millions Of N95 Masks & PPE Are Leaving America Every Day To Foreign Buyers

The problem stems from the need of American states and hospitals to show “proof of funds” even as prices are steadily rising. Other countries have cracked down on selling this gear out of country. The United States has not. Millions of masks are leaving this country every day. This is why the Federal Government needs to step in and why not doing so is endangering our doctors and nurses, our citizens and ultimately our economy and national security.

I can't take anymore of this for a while. TV off, computer off. Love you guys.

ElaineA · Mar 31, 2020

NK Jemisin RT'd this quick demo-article on a No-Sew Pleated Face mask for those without sewing skills.

I did a rough version of it experimentally. I found it kind of bulky (but there are a lot of layers of fabric, so that's an upside), and the hair ties pulled on the backs of my ears, but that just meant it needed adjustment. It's rudimentary, and obviously won't be 100% effective in the face of a close-up aerosolized sneeze or cough as it doesn't fit tight around the bridge of the nose, but it's better than nothing at all on, say a run to a grocery store that's more crowded than is comfortable. Plus, it's washable.

Another hack might be to purchase a furnace filter, break it apart and use the paper inside to slip between layers of a homemade mask. Again, not medical grade, but not a bare face, either.

Roxxsmom · Mar 31, 2020

Albedo said:
Also, telehealth-for-all is a ... new experience. With a hell of a learning curve.

This has to be really tough! I am so grateful for the work you guys are putting in right now.

ElaineA said:
I saw a funny tweet from a woman talking about her ob/gyn doing all-virtual-visits. It ended with something to the effect of, "and this is how I become a cam girl." (I can't do it justice, but the image had me both laughing and cringing. And glad I don't have to visit an ob/gyn anymore.)

OMG, I can't even. "Hey doc, does this look like a simple yeast infection to you?" I've been so worried about Covid-19, I haven't thought about all the other things that can still go wrong.

Please, please, please body--stay healthy and don't develop any of those annoying/uncomfortable conditions that have to be dealt with but aren't a priority right now...

JJ Litke · Mar 31, 2020

I’ve started sewing basic fabric masks. If you’re about to self-importantly lecture about how those won’t stop droplets, sit your ass down. I know it’s not great, but something is better than nothing. Besides, if everyone would do this—which would include people who are a- or pre-symptomatic—we might be able to reduce the spread.

AW Admin · Mar 31, 2020

I can't sew but I can find stuff and negotiate. I got together with friends to source HEPA vacuum bags; we're making these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6d3twpHwis

Roxxsmom · Mar 31, 2020

JJ Litke said:
I’ve started sewing basic fabric masks. If you’re about to self-importantly lecture about how those won’t stop droplets, sit your ass down. I know it’s not great, but something is better than nothing. Besides, if everyone would do this—which would include people who are a- or pre-symptomatic—we might be able to reduce the spread.

Well, they're now suggesting that the cloth masks may be better than nothing. At least they may slow the velocity of droplets, and therefore they won't spray as far when people talk, sneeze, cough, or laugh. Maybe that limits aerosol distance some too?

I am a hopeless tailor, unfortunately. Looking at one of the simple patterns for masks posted online, my response was "Huh?" I don't think I am dull, but I sure felt that way trying to figure out what in the heck they were telling us to do with those pull strings.

Oh, I read somewhere that vacuum bags are a decent material to make these masks out of too. Unfortunately, I haven't had a vacuum bag in the house since my old kenmore vac croaked. I have a dyson animal ball vac now, with one of those plastic can things that fills with hair after about 5 min of vacuuming (in my house, anyway). Edit--see AW Admin already mentioned the vacuum bags.

JJ Litke · Mar 31, 2020

AW Admin said:
I can't sew but I can find stuff and negotiate. I got together with friends to source HEPA vacuum bags; we're making these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6d3twpHwis

Nice! I’m really not great at sewing myself, had to finesse my machine into working here (it could use a good servicing). I don’t have any HEPA vacuum bags anyway, and I guess the thin shop vac filters I do have aren’t going to be much use.

We’ve got exactly two dust masks—is there a way to clean and reuse those? I guess you could quarantine them, but I wouldn’t want to frivolously use them up.

The Covid-19 virus

I meant to do that.

Beastly Fido

Dragon-kitty.

Alex

Alex

Alex

All about that action, boss.

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

I meant to do that.

Beastly Fido

Heckuva good sport

Beastly Fido

All about that action, boss.

Beastly Fido

People are not wearing enough hats

Beastly Fido

People are not wearing enough hats