Agents recommending paid editing

Clairels

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Is it ever acceptable for an agent to offer representation on the condition that the author hire a paid editor/proofreader (either one they recommended or just an editor in general)?

To me, the idea of an agent recommending any kind of paid service is a huge red flag, even if they give you an option to use someone else. If an agent truly feels a project needs that much work and they are unable or unwilling to perform the editing themselves, they should simply decline to represent it.

An agent I spoke to on another writing board said she regularly recommends an editor she knows to her authors (although they are free to use a different editor if they prefer) and sees no problem with it. These are authors that she has already agreed to represent. On the other hand, when I had an agent, she put in hours and hours of editing work on my manuscript for free, which I tend to think is the way things should be done if an agent really believes in a project.

Opinions?
 

veinglory

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The circumstances where it would be appropriate strike me as being very narrow and should include both paid and unpaid ways of achieving a submit-able standard.
 

lizmonster

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Is it ever acceptable for an agent to offer representation on the condition that the author hire a paid editor/proofreader (either one they recommended or just an editor in general)?

To me, the idea of an agent recommending any kind of paid service is a huge red flag, even if they give you an option to use someone else. If an agent truly feels a project needs that much work and they are unable or unwilling to perform the editing themselves, they should simply decline to represent it.

An agent I spoke to on another writing board said she regularly recommends an editor she knows to her authors (although they are free to use a different editor if they prefer) and sees no problem with it. These are authors that she has already agreed to represent. On the other hand, when I had an agent, she put in hours and hours of editing work on my manuscript for free, which I tend to think is the way things should be done if an agent really believes in a project.

Opinions?

Not all agents are editorial.

If I wanted an editor and my agent wasn't editorial, I would indeed ask her for recommendations, and expect her to know some reputable professionals. On the other hand, if my agent pushed me strongly toward an editor before subbing the book, I'd wonder a little why she'd taken me on.

I don't think it's an ethical issue as it would be if an agent was suggesting you needed a paid edit before she'd sign you. It might be a yellow or red flag for other reasons, though.
 

cool pop

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This used to be a huge no-no when I first started trade over 15 years ago and I can't see it being acceptable now. It definitely is a red flag to me and I had an agent do it to me and even suggested the editor I should try. Of course, I knew this was all shady. Usually this is a kickback operation. The shady agent refers a client to an editor and they both end up getting paid off the sucker (ahem, writer).

An agent recommending an editor to her OWN clients is different. But when you're in the submission stage and an agent suggests a paid editor (especially if they name one), run.

Also most agents wouldn't suggest you get an editor (maybe beta readers). The reason they don't mention editors is because they already know your work will probably changed a million times by the time you get a deal, if you get one. So it's really mute to get a professional editor. It's always been that you don't need one at this stage. What you do is try to make the book the best it can be by using the help of other writers, critique groups, etc. When I started out I paid for an editor and thought I was supposed to and that book never got published. So I paid all that money for nothing and it wasn't until after I had that I learned the consensus was not to pay for an editor at that stage. Wish I'd known that before I blew that money. In her defense, she was a good editor but after all these years and publishing tons of books, that book never went anywhere. I don't think I even have the manuscript anymore by the way. Never really thought about it since I stopped submitting it back in the early 2000's.

But yeah, let's be real. Most agents aren't going to refer a writer to anyone. Many don't even answer you back because they're in such a hurry. They see so many manuscripts in a day that the ones they aren't interested in become as memorable as a fart so most won't bother giving any kind of tips unless they have genuine interest and if so they will say it.

Great you asked this though and good on you that you are being cautious. :)
 
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cool pop

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Also, I agree with Liz. Not every agent is an editor. Most are not. If your agent took hours helping you edit then she was an editor or that was just how she worked. You can't expect everyone to be like your old agent. Agents are people so of course they're gonna all be different from one another. Agents have different processes and ways of representing clients. They won't all work the same.

Some agents are very hands on and communicative. They will help you edit and be with you every step of the way like your best friend.

Others are strictly business, and if you need editing all they will do is email you the notes and the rest is on you. These types do no hand-holding and will only communicate with you if they have something extremely important to say.

Doesn't mean they both aren't good and passionate, just different. :tongue

This is why not all agents fit all writers.
 
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I wonder if certain genres that literary agents represent expect more editing than others.

Anyway, if I get my book edited, it'll eat up 50% of my book budget. I plan on querying agents, and I'm worried of two things:
1) My manuscript will be rejected despite being edited.
2) My manuscript will be rejected, because it wasn't edited enough.

Knowing my own writing, I worry that professional editing could stop me from striving to improve my manuscript. It's kinda easy to go on Scribendi, submit your document, pay, and just relax. I've done it for short stories, and while its an educational experience, sinking eighty dollars is easier than losing a couple of thousands. Although I'm a newbie, it's a bit unprofessional for 'higher ups' in the industry to advise authors that 'if you order a manuscript critique from ABC than they'll show it to publisher XYZ.' That's not cool. Will I probably get my work professional edited? There's a 51% chance, yes. But I need to be comfortable losing that amount of money, and as a student, I don't think I am.

Anyway. Final year as a 25 yr old undergraduate, and maybe 85% of my 'book budget' should've been put towards a trip to Singapore.
 

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As others have said, not all agents are editors, in fact, most are not. You should ask your agent why they are pushing you in this direction. It could be that they see some potential in your book, but they know it simply isn't in any condition to be submitted to publishers. You'll only know by talking to your agent.

I wouldn't have a problem with them recommending an editor either. If they have someone that they've had a strong working relationship with in the past and who has a track record of success, I'd be happy to receive the recommendation. You can go to anyone you want. There is nothing wrong with them saying that this editor has produced saleable works in the past. I doubt they're getting kickbacks or anything.
 

katfeete

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If I self-publish a book, I will expect to hire an editor. There are few other circumstance where I would. If an agent suggested it to me, I would be skeptical (unless there was good reason to think this problem was out of my ability to fix — if I were an ESL author or otherwise struggling with the basics of language, for example, or if I were writing out of my cultural experience and needed a reality check.) If an agent wasn’t representing me, or offered rep conditional on a professional edit, outside the sort of exceptions outlined above I would consider it a major red flag.

I’ve been out of the writing/subbing game for a decade or so, and that one should pay for work to be “professionally” edited before one even submits to agents as some kind of standard thing is a new and unwelcome idea. I see it mostly expressed by newer, less experienced writers or editors-for-hire with less-than-stellar credentials.

All rules have exceptions and if there’s a strong reason extended for a pre-submission edit, fine. If it’s something a new writer wants to do for their own education and growth, that’s also fine. But to expect writers to pay for an edit to get their work in front of a professional editor who will then edit the dang thing again (for free) is just getting silly.
 

lizmonster

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All rules have exceptions and if there’s a strong reason extended for a pre-submission edit, fine. If it’s something a new writer wants to do for their own education and growth, that’s also fine. But to expect writers to pay for an edit to get their work in front of a professional editor who will then edit the dang thing again (for free) is just getting silly.

Worth saying that if you're hoping to publish more than one book, you're going to need to learn to self-edit anyway (and yeah, just like every other part of writing, that takes practice). I'd say that's true for self-publishing, too, even if you have a pro editor before you go out. You want the book as close to your desired result as you can get it on your own before you start shelling out money.

I learned a lot from having a pro editor, but I learned even more by writing and revising a lot.
 

katfeete

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Worth saying that if you're hoping to publish more than one book, you're going to need to learn to self-edit anyway.

100x this. I think lizmonster has put her finger on one of the things that bothers me the most about an agent recommending a professional edit, ESPECIALLY before offering representation: it feels book-oriented, not career-oriented. Beta readers can point out where the book fails them as readers; editors can offer educated guesses on how to make it better; but in the end only you can fix your book. And if you haven’t developed your book-fixing skills before taking it to an editor, if you haven’t already sweated to make it the best book you, personally, can write, the absolute best that editor can do for you is possibly make this one book better.

An agent ought to be concerned with your career, not this single book. If they’re suggesting this as an educational exercise, a way to kick-start your ability to self-edit, maybe. But otherwise... mrrrrrrr. Not keen.
 

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Anyway, if I get my book edited, it'll eat up 50% of my book budget. I plan on querying agents, and I'm worried of two things:
1) My manuscript will be rejected despite being edited.
2) My manuscript will be rejected, because it wasn't edited enough.

It's possible to hire a good editor for the first five/ten/fifty pages for query purposes. This is the amount usually included in a query anyway. So, possibility #3 is paying $50 for an editor to go over the first twenty pages (or whatever it is), querying, and still not having requests for the manuscript.

What this outcome might suggest to a person is that 'poorly edited/unedited' isn't the hurdle/problem.

Originally posted by Clairels
An agent I spoke to on another writing board said she regularly recommends an editor she knows to her authors (although they are free to use a different editor if they prefer) and sees no problem with it. These are authors that she has already agreed to represent. On the other hand, when I had an agent, she put in hours and hours of editing work on my manuscript for free, which I tend to think is the way things should be done if an agent really believes in a project.

Opinions?

It sounds like this agent has already signed with the author, and my uninformed opinion is that it is not a huge red flag. It might be a small red flag. It would depend how the conversation goes or how the agent selects her clients.

It's been interesting to see all the other input on this thread.
 

byarvin

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Is it ever acceptable for an agent to offer representation on the condition that the author hire a paid editor/proofreader (either one they recommended or just an editor in general)?

I can think of only one acceptable circumstance - if it's a nonfiction book and the potential author has an amazing platform and fair writing skills. Think too good for a ghostwriter and not up to pitch-able snuff. I'm pretty sure this actually happens but can't think of an example offhand.
 

be frank

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It's possible to hire a good editor for the first five/ten/fifty pages for query purposes. This is the amount usually included in a query anyway. So, possibility #3 is paying $50 for an editor to go over the first twenty pages (or whatever it is), querying, and still not having requests for the manuscript.

What this outcome might suggest to a person is that 'poorly edited/unedited' isn't the hurdle/problem.

The problem here is there's also a possibility #4: You pay an editor $50 to go over your opening pages, query it ... then get requests.

Having read a lot of slush, it's always apparent when someone's only put effort into the first part of a manuscript. And it's annoying AF.

Put me in the "at some point, you'll need to learn how to self-edit anyway" crowd.
 

Woollybear

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The problem here is there's also a possibility #4: You pay an editor $50 to go over your opening pages, query it ... then get requests.

I see that outcome as putting a person back to choice 1 vs 2, only with more information in hand: whether their manuscript has editorial issues or not.

Having read a lot of slush, it's always apparent when someone's only put effort into the first part of a manuscript. And it's annoying AF.

I remember you cautioning me on this some years ago. I've held it mind. I'm sorry you were annoyed AF by the slush. That's not intended as a sarcastic comment.

Put me in the "at some point, you'll need to learn how to self-edit anyway" crowd.

But, this is hardly a binary choice. "Learn to self edit" or "don't."

In my experience, professional feedback on a even a small writing sample can loosen the scales from one's eyes. Feedback can be applied to the entire manuscript. Or, alternatively, reassure a person that their writing is competitive.

"Editing by oneself" vs. "hiring the thing out" ... those simply aren't the only choices.

OP: Also in my experience, each editor is different from the next, in multiple ways. Style, tone, eye to detail--all of it. If you do hire an editor you will still not know if it was the right editor; the best editor you could have found for your project. Editors are not ... magic bullets.
 
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be frank

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I see that outcome as putting a person back to choice 1 vs 2, only with more information in hand: whether their manuscript has editorial issues or not.

Okay, so hypothetically, what's the next step there? How many agents do you query/burn in order to figure this out? (Sincere question!) Because if an agent requests, how long do you want to leave them hanging before you send them the completed manuscript? How long will it take to get a 120K (per the above MS example) sufficiently polished? It's expected when you query, the MS is pretty much good to go.

So ... which agents do you snub if/when they ask for the full?

I remember you cautioning me on this some years ago. I've held it mind. I'm sorry you were annoyed AF by the slush. That's not intended as a sarcastic comment.

FWIW, I don't think that was me! Also fwiw, as annoying as I find manuscripts whose quality suddenly and noticeably plummets after the opening 'hook' chapters, it's worse for the writer. All that happens there is I reject. I don't ever look at it and think, "Gee, let's get the rest of this polished, too!" I read it and feel the writer hasn't put in the work. I feel cheated. And I pass.

Ofc, I'm a harsh judge. Other readers could well do differently.

But, this is hardly a binary choice. "Learn to self edit" or "don't."

In my experience, professional feedback on a even a small writing sample can loosen the scales from one's eyes. Feedback can be applied to the entire manuscript. Or, alternatively, reassure a person that their writing is competitive.

"Editing by oneself" vs. "hiring the thing out" ... those simply aren't the only choices.

Nope, never said it was binary. As with others above, a good editor can teach you in a small sample what you need to apply to your own work. (ftr: I'm talk here wrt querying with a view to getting an agent/trying to trade pub. Self publishing is a different beast entirely when it comes to whether or not to hire an editor. Again, a good editor. That's important!!!)

BUT if a writer wants to query, find an agent, and look to write more books down the track with a hope of trade publishing, learning to edit your own work to an acceptable level is a critical skill imo. An editor can help you get there, but I see a lot of people who write drafts with no intention to ever put in the work themselves.

Just my opinions, though. To each their own. :)
 

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But, this is hardly a binary choice. "Learn to self edit" or "don't."

In my experience, professional feedback on a even a small writing sample can loosen the scales from one's eyes. Feedback can be applied to the entire manuscript. Or, alternatively, reassure a person that their writing is competitive.

"Editing by oneself" vs. "hiring the thing out" ... those simply aren't the only choices.

OP: Also in my experience, each editor is different from the next, in multiple ways. Style, tone, eye to detail--all of it. If you do hire an editor you will still not know if it was the right editor; the best editor you could have found for your project. Editors are not ... magic bullets.

A lot of self-editing comes in when people just naturally learn how to write and how to avoid making the same mistakes over and over. The longer you do this, the better your drafts naturally become, assuming that you learn your lessons along the way. It does get easier when you figure out how not to make amateur mistakes. Then you can move on to all kinds of advanced errors.
 

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Quite some time ago, I had an agent reply that the book was interesting but it would need some serious editing before submission to a publisher. She wouldn't be able to do it and suggested I hire an editor. Never got to pursue that avenue because another agent accepted the manuscript as is and worked with me to get it into shape. It didn't really require editing as much as proofreading, lots of run-on sentences and misuse of commas. Which I still do. :)

Jeff
 

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I would possibly accept on the condition that the editorial fees would come out of the agent's commission if the book is sold. This prevents the poor writer being suckered into being the only one taking a financial risk.
 

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I would possibly accept on the condition that the editorial fees would come out of the agent's commission if the book is sold. This prevents the poor writer being suckered into being the only one taking a financial risk.

Doesn't that mean that the writer still has to pay the fees upfront? If the book isn't sold, the writer still bears all the cost.
 

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Nope. Not acceptable, unless you're not a native speaker/fluent in the language of publication.

Here's why: the editor is editing for an unknown standard. The eventual publisher will have their own standard, and editorial direction; let them edit.
 

Cephus

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Nope. Not acceptable, unless you're not a native speaker/fluent in the language of publication.

Here's why: the editor is editing for an unknown standard. The eventual publisher will have their own standard, and editorial direction; let them edit.

If, in the agent's estimation, the book simply will never get a publisher in its current state, then what? Because that's what it sounds like is going on here. The book simply isn't up to snuff and without help, it simply won't be. It's not the agent's job to make it a good book. It's the agent's job to sell it to a publisher.
 

lizmonster

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If, in the agent's estimation, the book simply will never get a publisher in its current state, then what? Because that's what it sounds like is going on here. The book simply isn't up to snuff and without help, it simply won't be. It's not the agent's job to make it a good book. It's the agent's job to sell it to a publisher.

Another way of looking at it is to wonder about an agent who offers to rep a book they don't believe they can sell.

I do think there are gray areas here, and for me I'd have to understand exactly what a particular agent's parameters were. But recommending a paid editor for a book feels a lot like an agent who's focusing on selling that one book, rather than supporting an author's career.

And having said that: some agents are editorial, and I think that, too, can be a gray area. I've found the editorial agents I've worked with to be much like my crit partners: they point out where I have too much or too little detail, areas that move too slowly, scenes that I'd left out that should be added. But I imagine a lot of people could argue it wasn't really different from paid editing.
 

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The problem is in an agent recommending a specific editor unasked, not in recommending editing. If the author asks for recs, that’s a different story. If an agent says they can’t rep a book without editing that they can’t provide & suggests using a freelance editor (perhaps assuming you’ve edited to the best of your ability) without naming one in general, I’d be okay with that.
 

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Another way of looking at it is to wonder about an agent who offers to rep a book they don't believe they can sell.

I do think there are gray areas here, and for me I'd have to understand exactly what a particular agent's parameters were. But recommending a paid editor for a book feels a lot like an agent who's focusing on selling that one book, rather than supporting an author's career.

And having said that: some agents are editorial, and I think that, too, can be a gray area. I've found the editorial agents I've worked with to be much like my crit partners: they point out where I have too much or too little detail, areas that move too slowly, scenes that I'd left out that should be added. But I imagine a lot of people could argue it wasn't really different from paid editing.

I don't know that the OP said the agent offered to rep the book, did they? The impression I got was that they might be interested, if the author got professional editing.
 

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I don't know that the OP said the agent offered to rep the book, did they? The impression I got was that they might be interested, if the author got professional editing.

I believe the OP described a situation where an agent referred authors she was already representing to a specific editor. However, the situation of “I might offer rep if you get the book edited“ is if anything a clearer red flag. For a long time this was a standard scam: agents would refer hopeful authors to an editor with vague promises of maybe-rep, and receive kickbacks from the editor for each successful referral. Needless to say neither the agents nor the editors in this cozy scenario were the cream of the crop, so the poor author ended up with an overpriced, sub-par editing job and no useful representation.

It’s been a while since I’ve heard this particular boat getting floated — it may have gone out of style — but old reflexes die hard. An agent offering rep if I got the book professionally edited — then “helpfully” suggesting an editor — would make me personally run screaming in the other direction.