Two women kill a man - their strength disposing of body.

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aruna

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They kill him through poison. Afterwards they want to drag his body through the apartment and chuck it over the 4th floor balcony.
They are of medium/average strength. He's a pretty big strong man. What's the best way to do this? I thought of rolling him on to a sheet and dragging the sheet. But hauling him over the balcony? How do they do this, upper body first, is there an easier way to do it? One of the women has some medical training. Thanks for any suggestions, I know you are all closet murderers! ;)
 

Bufty

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Hmmm. I've never actually had this particular problem, believe it or not, :flag: but my wife did once fall when we were out and although she climbed stairs when we returned, she just couldn't make it beyond the top landing and lay on her back.

I'm 6' 3" and she is around 5' 6" but not overweight. It was incredibly difficult to try and lift her or even move her. We managed to get her through to the bedroom but she was helping as much as she could.

Did your nasty pair consider having their victim sitting on the balcony when they poisoned him? Was it quick acting poison? Save a lot of hard work if he was standing at the balcony and just need a combined shove as the poison worked. A lifeless body of any size is darned heavy and a big heavy man would be really heavy to drag yet alone lift.

Could he perhaps be in a chair, maybe on wheels? That would help solve horizontal movement to the balcony especially if the floor is not carpeted. At least a chair can be dragged. Indeed, pretty much anything can be dragged on a polished floor.

Once at the balcony, my guess is leverage over the balcony, but how? The one with medical training may be able to arrange locking arms around the torso, but lifting a dead weight from floor level - phew. I wouldn't want to try that....

Any chance of having some friends experiment to see just how tricky it can be to manoeuvre a dead weight?

Good luck.
 
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lizmonster

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They won't need that much upper body strength to drag him over a relatively flat surface. Being able to hook someone under the arms gives decent leverage. As for tossing him over - if it were me, I'd use some shorter pieces of furniture as makeshift stairs so I could have a place to at least partially rest him while I got his center of mass high enough. I'd probably tip him over head first, on the assumption that his center of mass was somewhere above his waist (but if it wasn't, I'd be able to figure that out by how he dragged).
 

aruna

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Hi Bufty, Liz. It's very quick acting poison and they administer it with a meal so I can have him sitting on a chair, falling forward on to the table, and then maybe drag the chair to the balcony -- no carpets.

(They are not nasty -- he is a very nasty, evil Nazi murderer! And a wife rapist. So it's a positive death! :) )
 
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Bufty

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Gotcha. And adrenaline could just be the missing factor to give them the extra strength needed for that final tip.....

Good luck
 

lizmonster

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Gotcha. And adrenaline could just be the missing factor to give them the extra strength needed for that final tip.....

Good luck

Keep in mind, Bufty, you were trying not to hurt your wife. :) These folks wouldn't care. Yes, he couldn't help, but they wouldn't have to worry about keeping him comfortable.

As a reference: I have the world's worst spaghetti arms. I can lift 50 lbs on my own. Pulling someone, or the jerk-and-lift required to up-and-over him? Yeah, I think it's manageable, especially with two of them, even if they're as weak as I am. And adrenalin will absolutely help!
 

Gillhoughly

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I'm a 5' 2" overweight shrimp, but can move most anything by shoving a sheet of cardboard under it, then use my legs to push. This worked fine when I had to shift a piano and later a bookcase with the books still in it.

Nurses know how to shift bodies. Look up "nurse lifting techniques" on YouTube.

Keep in mind that when a person dies ALL their muscles relax, including the anal sphincter. If this guy has anything in his bladder and back door, it's going to come out. That's an aspect of death few writers ever mention. It will give your protags something else to clean up. Any investigator coming into the room who gets a whiff of poop is going to know the guy died there, not on the pavement below. The nurse will know all that and should plan for it.

If the poison doesn't act fast enough, there's a good chance the guy will throw it up. It is an involuntary defense mechanism against toxins. I've suffered though it a few times from food poisoning. One case was so bad I just stripped and got in the bathtub because it was coming out both ends. Sorry if that is TMI, but writers dealing with death need to know this stuff. :)
 

dpaterso

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If they can each get a shoulder under his armpits, and take tight hold of an arm so he doesn't slip off, then between the two of them they might be able to walk-drag him out onto the balcony. Resting his chest on the rail with his head and arms dangling over, then levering his hips up with their shoulders, might get him into an ideal launch position. I think it's do-able. They will need a sherry afterwards.

-Derek
 

aruna

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Thanks Gillhoughly and Derek.
Ideally I'd like him to be in his pajamas, for them to change him into pjs before chucking overboard, which would give them the chance to clean him up if he'd shit, but that doesn't sit nicely with him dying at the table.
It's supposed to be put down to suicide, which, considering his circumstrances, is very plausible (many Nazis committed suicide at the end of the war); that he left his marital bed and jumped. It's not likely to be thoroughly investigated or suspicious. They do get away with it.

So I also wanted to know if a perfunctory look at the body would reveal that he's been poisoned. So thanks for that Gilloughly. Anything else to watch out for?
 

jclarkdawe

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Dead bodies are delightfully easy to move. They're limp and they don't complain. At least until rigor sets in. By the way, rigor can develop fairly quickly after some poisons.

You get the arms over the side, then the head, and gradually slide it the rest of the way. One woman could easily do this and have in the past. Two will be no problem. If it's a little difficult, you use a chair as a halfway point.

But a nurse would know that a four-story drop won't fool much of anyone. The dead fall very differently than the living. They don't have a fear of impact and no muscle resistance when they hit. You need a bigger drop or incredibly dumb police. As well as the fact that many poisons leave obvious signs. Anal, bladder, and stomach leakage would be markedly different.

You need a drop that gets the body up to much closer to terminal speed. Terminal speed takes about 1800 feet. You're talking about maybe 50 feet. You need solid concrete for the landing zone. And even then it isn't going to be that easy to fool anyone. Why do you think people don't try this more often?

Personally I'd stand them someplace on a high speed rail line. Trains hitting bodies tend to produce body parts, and a lot more mess. Still very obvious to a medical examiner, but would probably fool the average police officer.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

aruna

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Thanks jclardawe. I originally had them on the 6th floor but someone told me that there were few buildings of that height in that era. But seems even that isn't high enough. Hmmmm.... it's almost impossible to change the scenario. What if he is merely heavily sedated?
 

Roxxsmom

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My husband and I got a very heavy (at least 200 pounds--maybe around the weight of your guy) and bulky old-style washing machine into the back of a large moving pod whose deck was chest height (there was no loading ramp) by sliding it up a large, thick piece of plywood (essentially used it as a skid--we had it on hand to build the bulkhead once our designated space in the moving pup was loaded up). The angle was pretty intense, and it was hard, but we managed.

A body will be floppy and awkward to lift in some ways, but if they use furniture or other materials to form a series or steps or skids to the balcony rail, they should be able to manage it.

Are they trying to make it look like he fell over the balcony after taking drugs or something? There are other tells that might indicate that he died of the drugs before impact if this is the case, though it depends on whether or not the forensics people are strongly motivated to look for signs of foul play.
 

aruna

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Thanks Roxxmom. This takes place in 1944, at the end of WW2, in a place that in utter chaos -- it's wartime. I'm kind of counting on a) the police not being very interested or suspicious because there's death all around them and b) no time or resources for forensics.
 

jclarkdawe

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I saw your answer to Roxxsmom and that tells me a better approach for you. First I'd move this to 1945 rather than 1944. Defeatism didn't really hit in Germany until after the Battle of the Bulge. Even after that point, many Germans believed in Hitler's ability to pull them out of the situation. Of course, this depended significantly on where someone was.

Next question would be whether this was in Germany or one of the occupied countries. Obviously this would be different depending upon the local police force. In addition, damage and destruction from air attacks and the resulting deaths would be a factor.

But I'd play this as follows. Two local cops show up for a reported death. No rush, just another thing their sergeant wants them to do. Bored out of their minds and wondering when the Allies are going to be flying over and dropping bombs or the locals are going to lynch them.

First cop says, "Looks like he was dead before he fell. Probably someone shoved him over the balcony."

Second cop responds, "Probably, but who the f*** cares." Glances at body in pajamas. "Just record it as a 'John Doe.' No ID. Let's get back to the station before anyone notices us."

Remember that by that point in the war, local police were mostly Nazi sympathizers and not well liked by the locals. I can see them realizing he was pushed and didn't jump, but I can't see them caring.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

ironmikezero

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So, it's 1944 and you want two women to stage the apparent suicide of a Nazi? Don't over-complicate it. Two women should be able to get him drunk during dinner--just pour his drinks from the Seconal-laced decanter. (Secobarbital has been around since 1934 . . . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secobarbital)
Once unconscious, he can be dressed as they decide, maneuvered to the balcony, and levered over head-first (that attitude will help to ensure his demise upon landing). He expires on the street, not in the fourth-floor accommodation--no mess. Your characters must dispose of the decanter and its contents. Not all suicides leave a note; but if it suits your plot, your two characters can craft one to be found (preferably on his body).

Update: I just read Jim's post--he definitely nailed the police attitude at the time.
 
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Gillhoughly

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Came up with an alternative to poisoning, and no poop or wee problems: knock out juice in his bedtime drink. No need to pull on pajamas. Some suicides prefer being naked, but the women will have to be careful not to tear clothing, should they put any on him, then drag over the floor. Floor dirt and polish can dirty his skin. http://jaapl.org/content/36/2/240

A nurse would have access to all sorts of Mickey Finn options. A little research should turn up something with no taste or color. Try researching morphine, which was in common use back then and chloral hydrate.

The Nazis were big ones for drugs: https://newrepublic.com/article/141125/third-reich-addicted-drugs

They just wait until he's out, drag him to the balcony, and then he actually does die from a fall. All the mess is on the street where it's supposed to be. :)
 

frimble3

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If they can each get a shoulder under his armpits, and take tight hold of an arm so he doesn't slip off, then between the two of them they might be able to walk-drag him out onto the balcony. Resting his chest on the rail with his head and arms dangling over, then levering his hips up with their shoulders, might get him into an ideal launch position. I think it's do-able. They will need a sherry afterwards.

-Derek
To me, this seems the most plausible. It's getting him off the floor that's the hard bit, if they just get him doped up, and don't let him fall off his chair, 'walking' him seems the best bet. And if they can lean him over the railing, gravity should drag him the rest of the way.
 

mccardey

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It’s a guy and I killed him? Yeah, I could shift that body, skull a beer and call his mum after. But I’m old, short and bitter.

This might not be my most helpful post ever, but it’s been a tough week.
 

aruna

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Oooh, thanks everyone! This thread has caused all kinds of rethinks from me.
He has by the way a huge motive for suicide -- one of his colleagues has already done so. He is a war criminal and is in big big doodoo and knows it -- the Allies are closing in.
She kills him because she has found evidence that he plans to run away to Italy.
What amazing murderers you all are!
 
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frimble3

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She kills him because she has found evidence that he plans to run away to Italy.
If she can get hold of physical evidence, send it to the local Gestapo office- they'll kill him and not have to worry about 'what it looks like'.
But, no, that would ruin your scene, and change the story. :cry:
 

neandermagnon

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I'm 5'1" female and have fireman lifted grown men and carried them some distance like that. The amount of weight is potentially liftable by a single woman, never mind two. Granted I'm not average strength for my size (history of doing judo, ice hockey, rugby and power lifting) but neither am I superwoman (my powerlifting best lifts are intermediate to advanced, but have never been elite, and that's relative to my body size and gender). BUT It's also a lot easier to lift someone who's alive and conscious as they will tense up and get in positions that make it easier for you to lift them.

It's said that the term "deadlift" (lifting the barbell off the floor until you're standing straight, shoulders back) comes from lifting up dead people. (although I've never fact checked that - it could just come from lifting a dead weight) Two women ought to be able to deadlift, together, the weight of an average man quite easily. The difficulty would be that because he's dead it would make the whole thing very awkward. Lifting a dead body is way more awkward than lifting the same amount of weight on a barbell. Note: I've never lifted a dead human, funnily enough. However if you had a brave volunteer who is able to be 100% relaxed while you try to lift him you could simulate it, to get an idea of just how awkward it would be.

To get over the non-rigidity of the body (I assume there's no rigor mortis yet) I would suggest making a sort of stretcher (e.g. a plank of wood or something flat and rigid that they could roll him onto, then they take each end and deadlift him off the floor (bent knees, back straight, let your legs do the work). When they get to the balcony, they'd have to raise the stretcher up which would require a bit of technique. You'd have to get down low (don't lower him too much while you do this) so the end of the plank is resting on your chest with your arms supporting it for balance, but not taking too much weight, then use your legs to raise the entire plank upwards - the two of them would have to co-ordinate this. For men and women, but especially for women, the legs are a lot stronger than the upper body so any lifting like this, the more you can get your legs to do the work, the better. Being able to do arse to grass squats would help a lot with this (this is a good example of the functional ability you get from being able to do arse to grass squats). If there's furniture on the balcony, e.g. a picnic table, then lay the stretcher on that and then you can have a little rest and then you only have to raise the plank a bit higher to tip the body over the balcony (you still need to raise the plank the same way, i.e. plank resting on chest, knees bent, back straight, lift with your legs). Once the plank is level with the balcony, it shouldn't be too hard to tip him over. They'd have to co-ordinate this.

Anyone who's done lifting and handling training for a manual labour job ought to be able to do this, not just people who've done powerlifting. However if that doesn't fit your characters' backgrounds, you might want an alternative method.

ETA: anyone who's worked in nursing and caring type professions would've done training for lifting patients - their techinques would be different to the above - that's an alternative way to do this. Also there's a two man carry technique that paramedics, mountain rescue etc would know. NOt sure how easy any of these are to do on someone who's actually dead and can't co-operate in any way, but presumably they've been done on unconscious and dying people before. The techniques would probably be better than my suggestion. the overall point remains the same - with good lifting techniques two women of ordinary strength levels shouldn't find it too difficult.
 
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Froeschli

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He passes out in the chair and they carry him in the chair. It's got to be well made though. Unless you want to add the complication of breaking a chair leg and him spilling on the floor.
(Saw the thread title and now the Dixie Chicks "Earl's gotta die" is running in my head. Thanks ever so much :p )
Ps. I don't believe women in wartime Germany would be dainty in terms of strength, unless malnourished. Maybe I've seen too much propaganda etc, but the (aspired) culture favored hard working, physically fit people. And if they're housewives, or nurses, they're no strangers to hard work.
 

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The time period affords many more opportunities. Had it taken place in modern times you would need to eliminate all contact with the body, both with the murders and the surrounding environment. Even so, a skilled investigator in the 40s might catch on if the murder and disposal is too sloppy.
Having a loose railing give way or tumbling over after drinking too much would waive suspicion. If that's not possible, ensuring the victim ends up on a movable surface they'd normally come into contact with would be preferable.

They could roll him onto a hand truck lying flat, wheel him upright to the balcony, and "oops!".
 

WeaselFire

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Why toss him at all?

"Hello, police? I think my husband killed himself. He's just lying there, drooling, and I can't wake him up. There's a strange bottle next to his dinner too..."

Jeff
 
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