More ignorant questions about WWII-era military

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Lakey

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Hello folks,

Some time back I asked a question about deployment to Korea and you were all extremely helpful. I am back with another set of questions to display my embarrassing ignorance of all things military.

I have two (American) characters who each lost a brother in WWII. This is a point of connection between the two women. However, they are of different social classes, and it would be very interesting to me if their experiences of their brothers’ deaths could differ on that basis. Would it be realistic for that to be the case? How?

One of the brothers was a college-educated, fairly privileged young man—his family isn’t gigantically rich in the book’s present but it is well-off, and has a long history of public service, in the form of judges and congressmen and the like. The boy was in law school when the US entered the war and probably could have avoided service or at least wrangled a safe posting, but he wanted to serve. I imagine him in some Yossarian-like situation, part of a bomber crew over the Mediterranean. Is that a reasonable posting for a person like that? What would his family know about it? How would his death have been treated?

The other brother was a boy from a military family who (like his nephew, the boy getting shipped off to Korea in the novel’s present) enlisted in the army as soon as he was old enough. He would have been in his early-to-mid-20s when the war started, so already having been in the army for a few years. I suppose a fellow like that could have died in any of a thousand ways. What is a likely scenario for him? What was he doing, and what would his family know about it? Again, I would like the class difference to reflect in their different experiences, if I can.

Finally, what memorabilia of these young men would their families have? Some years ago I was at a funeral of a WWII veteran at which his widow elected to have an honor guard, and they presented her with a symbolically folded flag. Would that have happened even in the heat of the war (did the army have resources for that)? Would the prominent family’s loss be treated differently by the army than the other family’s loss? The sister of one of the boys owns a restaurant; if she had a little display case there with artifacts of her brother’s military service (and her father’s service, a generation before), what would likely be in it? Would she keep the folded flag in it—is that an acceptable thing to do? What other kind of memorabilia might she have?

This has gotten quite long; every time I try to think this through I realize there is more I don’t know. I tried some Googling and found only vague histories of the honor guard; I couldn’t find specifics about how WWII deaths were treated, though I know this must be documented somewhere. I know the collective knowledge of AW can help me and I am extremely grateful.

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WeaselFire

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There is no likely case for a death. Could have been shot down over Europe, could have been sunk in the Pacific, could have died from the flu in Baltimore.

Other than rank and medals generating things like a 18 or 21 gun salute, military funerals do not, and did not then, discriminate on the burials. Families would be presented with the coffin flag and any medals or rank insignia that were due to the serviceman. Many family members chose to have their dead buried in family plots instead of military cemataries and some eschewed honor guards. Family choice. Could have just accepted the burial stipend and arranged everything themselves.

Memorabilia could include uniforms, medals, insignia, flags or anything else, often based on rank and assignment in the service.

Hit some of the VFW sites and visit the local hall and talk to veterans.

Jeff
 

CWatts

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Hi Lakey,

First, you're anything but ignorant!

I'm no expert on the military but I have researched my family's WW2 casualties. My grandmother's cousin was shot down over Germany as the waist gunner of the B-17 "Bayou Gal" in the 8th Air Force based in England. Your well-off guy reminds me of the co-pilot, Houison Reed, who was pre-law at LSU and the son of a district attorney: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/7186363/houison-griffith-reed ETA a better link with a photo and some biographical info: https://www.fieldsofhonor-database....bR0b_Jc0ZaPzhXAxCNRgvg1fjlGAv_ZjZcgqGe2ye_f5s

PM me for more details. Your college man would likely be an officer, so a pilot, co-pilot, bombardier or navigator, while all the gunners were sergeants. My relative was a cab driver who joined up during the war while in his early 30s, and was back to back with a Texas cowboy about the same age.

Your blue-collar guy with some years of experience would probably be an NCO. If you want him to have medals, he could take command when an officer is killed.

The grave and burial is where some class differences would come out. There was a cost to bring the body from overseas. My husband's namesake is buried in Normandy because his farm family couldn't afford to bring him home.
 
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Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

You can rise in the ranks in the military, but it's more likely your well-to-do guy would be an officer of some sort and your not-so-well-to-do guy would be enlisted. There's also the difference in education. My uncle with college degree was a communications officer on board the USS Franklin and survived Pearl Harbor because the ship was off base at the time, and my uncle-in-law without college education (I think) was a midshipman (IIRC) in the Navy. You'll be able to come up with something similar airborne.

AFAIK, both families would receive the purple heart after their sons' deaths, but not necessarily right away.

I will add that even the well-to-do and educated sometimes left their son's bodies on European soil in a military cemetery as a memorial to their son's sacrifice. My husband's family did just that with the son who died in the Battle of the Bulge.

Memorabilia might include things that have nothing to do with what the military handed out. My family had a book about Pearl Harbor, and Mr. Siri's had a book about the Battle of the Bulge. Though, come to think of it, those might not have been written during Korea.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Siri Kirpal

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Occurred to me to add: Tastes differ and the people with the most memorabilia might not be the wealthy. The wealthy might think it in poor taste. Case in point: the parents of the guy who died in the Battle of the Bulge divorced around the end of the war. Part of the problem (but by no means the only item) was that the mother, who had been abandoned at age 12 (and was probably illegitimate) and worked as a shop girl to keep off the street prior to her marriage, wanted their home to become a shrine to the fallen son, and the father, who came from a well-to-do family, thought they ought to get on with their lives.

Where they would keep the memorabilia would differ according more to tastes than class or wealth. Living room mantel shrine. Back bedroom in an unlit corner. Kid's bedroom kept untouched. All traces of kid removed. All of that would depend on taste and how the family viewed the kid much more than it would class and status and wealth.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Okay, I talked to Mr. Siri about this thread, and he mentioned he had a scan of everything about Uncle Bob's death they had.

Here goes:

Purple Heart with stripes, certificate and a slew of letters, including one from the Secretary of War, one from the Adjutant General's Office, and one from the President.

Telegrams and follow up letters about the death, from the War Department, the Adjutant General and the Commander of Uncle Bob's unit.

Unit Badge and stripes. (We aren't sure if that's what it's called, but that's the gist.)

Newspaper articles about the death cut out by family members.

Financial Stuff.

Bible and devotional material.

Mess Kit.

Unsent letters and other personal papers.

What amounts to the WWII FAQ list for surviving family members.

There are also a series of black and white photos of the grave and cemetery in Flanders field. This is the one difference money would make. The wealthy could go abroad to visit the graves of their dead.

If you would like a CD with the photos of these documents, please PM me with your address. My husband would be glad to make a copy for you.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Lakey

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Thanks everyone. This is useful information that will help me put my scene together in a realistic and meaningful way. (It isn’t a major plot point, just one facet of one relationship.) Just a clarifying question: if the soldier’s remains stay in Europe, does the family still receive a flag? And if they do—would it be appropriate for his sister to display the folded flag in a display case in her restaurant? I know there are rules about what one can do with a flag and she would presumably respect them, if not for herself than to avoid antagonizing her customers.

(The reason I want the flag in the display case is because I want another character to see it from across the room. If it doesn’t belong there, I can manage—I’ll give the character a reason to go look at the display more closely, and see the Purple Heart and whatever else is in it instead.)

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Kat M

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Both my grandfathers' flags are in display cases at their widows' homes. But this is modern times, not World War II. Not sure if the rules have changed. Also not sure if having it in a restaurant is different.
 

Siri Kirpal

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I'll ask Mr. Siri, but I don't think a flag was part of what was sent to Uncle Bob's widow. (Aside: she wanted to get on with her life and gave everything to either Uncle Bob's mother or his sister, who was Mr. Siri's mother.) And I'm pretty sure they'd have kept a flag.

Wouldn't surprise me that much to have a flag displayed in restaurant. If someone knows differently, please correct me.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

cmhbob

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A nit regarding the rifle volleys, since I saw it mentioned.

A 21-gun salute is reserved for heads of state and so forth and is always fired by artillery batteries; there's quite an involved protocol about how many guns are fired.

The rifle volleys fired at a funeral are called "three volleys," and are rendered no matter the rank of the deceased. It's typically done by a squad which is traditionally seven soldiers, but these days, especially if it's a veterans group doing it, you go with what you've got. So you may have 5 people, but they still fire three volleys. The custom originated in the European dynastic wars, where the fighting ceased so the dead and wounded could be removed. Then, three shots were fired into the air to signal that the battle could resume.
 

Siri Kirpal

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I checked with Mr. Siri. You're good to go with the flag in the restaurant, even if the body was buried in Europe and not returned. The reason the flag didn't show up on his archival scan was that his sister got it. He remembers the '50s better than I do, and thinks a flag in a family restaurant would not have been a problem. And he concurred with my thought that since the Korean War was right around the time of McCarthyism, the restaurant owner might want to have a flag on the property to show she was as patriotic as the next person.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Lakey

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Thank you so much Siri! Yes, I think display of the flag is entirely consistent with who this character is as a person, and what her values are. She comes from a military family, and is proud of her family’s tradition of service, which is why she displays relics of it (tastefully) in her restaurant.

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WeaselFire

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Just a note, for WWII soldiers killed overseas, they were often buried at or near the battle site and the graves exhumed at a later date for internment in graves chosen by family, if there was family. You could be interred at an overseas site or in the US in a military cemetary. This applies to non-combat deaths and even deaths of honorably discharged soldiers who die 50 years after service. Families of those veterans still get coffin flags, if desired. Those buried in private cemetaries aren't necessarily given a veteran's burial, my dad wasn't, but local VFW groups will often provide one. I have one uncle who opted for a military burial at a military cemetary, two who didn't. All, as well as my dad, were WWII vets. My aunt had my uncle's flag on display, now my cousin does. Locally, I know three restaurants/diners with flag displays, though one is a police officer killed by a drunk driver. So your story would work in my area.

Jeff
 
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