To All Politicians

Considering what Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham have said the last two days, I don't think they have souls left to worry about. That makes this all much easier on them.

Tell yours directly. Make noise. On Twitter, Seth Abramson has a thread of Republican senators in purple districts who are planning to vote no on impeachment. If any of them are yours, call, reach out on social media. Call yours anyway. Urge friends to. Get in their faces if they come home. Thank them if they're for impeachment. They aren't here reading, so it's up to us to get loud.

There's video of Martha McSally ignoring and blowing off veterans who were just trying to speak to her. While that video might not move anyone likely to vote for her, it could, and putting pressure on all of them could work. It's up to us. I'm not going down without a fight.

Professional political tip: the inner void left by a desiccated soul is a nice place to store one's blood money.

Those who have sold out do not care. At all. It's a power game, plain and simple. Power and money. Trying to employ shame as a weapon does not work for those who do not feel it - who roll in shamelessness like a dog rolls in roadkill and proudly march the stink around to gain favors with their masters.

The OP sums up my thoughts when I read about Democrat senators who were thinking of voting against impeachment because they were scared to lose their seats.

Can I write to them as a Brit? Ask them to do the right thing ***BY THE WHOLE WORLD***?

Why does this even come down to a vote in the senate? If the president has broken the law, he's broken the law. Impeachment should be decided by a panel of unbiassed judges (or half from each party if that's impossible) and the decision made based on the evidence, not party political allegiance. Or alternatively a trial by jury same as everyone else. That would fix the issue of double standards where the American government appears to have wildly different standards for Democrats and Republicans. If Trump doesn't get impeached after colluding with foreign powers putting his own personal gain before the security of the USA then the American system is broken. It's failed. The USA has failed. You may as well never have bothered with the Boston Tea Party and just stuck to being ruled by our batshit crazy excuse for a king. A "president" who can get away with breaking the law is not a president. He's a king, and a corrupt one at that.

neandermagnon said:

Why does this even come down to a vote in the senate? If the president has broken the law, he's broken the law. Impeachment should be decided by a panel of unbiassed judges (or half from each party if that's impossible) and the decision made based on the evidence, not party political allegiance. Or alternatively a trial by jury same as everyone else. That would fix the issue of double standards where the American government appears to have wildly different standards for Democrats and Republicans. If Trump doesn't get impeached after colluding with foreign powers putting his own personal gain before the security of the USA then the American system is broken. It's failed. The USA has failed. You may as well never have bothered with the Boston Tea Party and just stuck to being ruled by our batshit crazy excuse for a king. A "president" who can get away with breaking the law is not a president. He's a king, and a corrupt one at that.

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The writers of the Constitution anticipated pretty much every inch of this situation EXCEPT the part about an entire party becoming corrupted to the point that not one patriot would step forward. Seeing excerpts from the Federalist Papers has been some fascinating reading. It almost as if Donald J. Trump was the model for the person they warned about and anticipated. They describe him in great detail.

That pesky Constitution is also why the impeachment is a political process. Amending that cannot happen in the current political environment. Not when one party's electorate is a shrinking demographic and the only way they win is to cheat, ignore norms, and yes, install a dictator. They're fine with breaking it beyond repair. It's the only way WASP men will be able to retain power.

ElaineA said:

Considering what Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham have said the last two days, I don't think they have souls left to worry about. That makes this all much easier on them.

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I used to believe there was a bottom line below which even trumpists would not go. I was so wrong. And trump was right when he claimed he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and walk. Graham and McConnell are soulless indeed, not to mention treasonous.

There are rallies planned around the country on Tuesday to support the impeachment of Trump.

"Nobody Is Above the Law" Events
https://www.impeach.org/event/impeach-and-remove-attend/search/

There will no doubt be trouble at some of the events, though. Anti-impeachment protesters disrupted an Armenian genocide town hall yesterday, and that wasn't even about the impeachment. You might want to wear a bulletproof vest. There's no telling what they might do.

This is the true form of World War III: Politicians and their small number of supporters vs. the people.

Auteur said:

There are rallies planned around the country on Tuesday to support the impeachment of Trump.

"Nobody Is Above the Law" Events
https://www.impeach.org/event/impeach-and-remove-attend/search/

There will no doubt be trouble at some of the events, though. Anti-impeachment protesters disrupted an Armenian genocide town hall yesterday, and that wasn't even about the impeachment. You might want to wear a bulletproof vest. There's no telling what they might do.

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We have one at the Capitol in Sacramento, but Tuesday is the day when I am giving finals to my late afternoon and evening classes (and my presence there is not optional). Sigh.

Snitchcat said:

This is the true form of World War III: Politicians and their small number of supporters vs. the people.

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There's too damned much money in politics, and we're reaping that bitter harvest. Can't do much about it here at the moment, not when the SCOTUS declared corporations are indeed people and that money = speech (so those with more money are free to buy politicians).

ElaineA said:

The writers of the Constitution anticipated pretty much every inch of this situation EXCEPT the part about an entire party becoming corrupted to the point that not one patriot would step forward. Seeing excerpts from the Federalist Papers has been some fascinating reading. It almost as if Donald J. Trump was the model for the person they warned about and anticipated. They describe him in great detail.

That pesky Constitution is also why the impeachment is a political process. Amending that cannot happen in the current political environment. Not when one party's electorate is a shrinking demographic and the only way they win is to cheat, ignore norms, and yes, install a dictator. They're fine with breaking it beyond repair. It's the only way WASP men will be able to retain power.

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The bit in bold is how it looks. Are there campaigns to write to individual senators and ask them to examine their consciences and what side of history they want to be on, and vote for what's best for the USA, i.e. be the patriots that will step forward? Remind them that this is not about party politics, it's about law and order and protecting American democracy and taking a stand against corruption. It's wrong that this is being framed by literally everyone as a Republican v Democrats thing. Even if Trump's impeached and removed from office, Republicans will still be in power.

ETA: the other side of this coin is that political parties can use impeachment as a tool to advance their party, rather than to remove a corrupt/law-breaking president. The party politics aspect of it - requiring a majority vote in the senate - needs to be changed. (Though I agree that now's not a good time to change anything in the constitution.)

The system worked when Nixon was removed. Trump's done worse things than Nixon did.

I am an independent, though I lean conservative. I supported President Trump because of policy, not for a personal like or dislike. I'm older and lived through the Arab embargo. The idea of energy independence appealed to me. So did the appointment of constitutional leaning judges. I am not trying to sway anyone toward my preferences, merely stating why I supported the President.

I don't have a dog in the impeachment battle. I believe VP Pence can reach the same ends. I think one man's patriot is another man's traitor. These hearings make both sides look bad IMHO. The dem's have cried wolf too many times to be taken seriously and are conducting a one-party impeachment. The GOP appears willing to support wrong-doing 'IF' it doesn't rise to the level of impeachment. The longer these hearings drag out, the more divided our country.

I hope it is time to return to a reasoned conversation. Maybe it can start on this forum.

redstick said:

I am an independent, though I lean conservative. I supported President Trump because of policy, not for a personal like or dislike. I'm older and lived through the Arab embargo. The idea of energy independence appealed to me. So did the appointment of constitutional leaning judges. I am not trying to sway anyone toward my preferences, merely stating why I supported the President.

I don't have a dog in the impeachment battle. I believe VP Pence can reach the same ends. I think one man's patriot is another man's traitor. These hearings make both sides look bad IMHO. The dem's have cried wolf too many times to be taken seriously and are conducting a one-party impeachment. The GOP appears willing to support wrong-doing 'IF' it doesn't rise to the level of impeachment. The longer these hearings drag out, the more divided our country.

I hope it is time to return to a reasoned conversation. Maybe it can start on this forum.

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The three reasons the Democrats have not been able to make anything stick: 1) The DOJ position that the President can not be indicted, 2) the President's consistent obstruction of justice, 3) The Republican traitors had control on the House until this year.

Trump cheated with Russian help to win the 2016 Election.
Trump violated campaign finance laws
Trump violated the Emoluments Clause
Trump used his office to force Ukraine to help him cheat in 2020.
Trump asked China to help him cheat in 2020.

There has been no "crying wolf" by the Democratic Party. This is a lie. There can be no reasoned conversation when one side is willing to destroy democracy and rule of law. This is an existential political crisis.

Interesting choice for "energy independence", to support the man who says windmills cause cancer?

As for "constitutional-leaning judges", I'd prefer judges to try to interpret the law through the needs of modern society, not of a time when slavery was legal, women couldn't vote, we lacked a standing army, doctors believed leeches were an effective tool, and generally only children of wealthy landowners were given anything past a grade school education.

redstick said:

I am an independent, though I lean conservative. I supported President Trump because of policy, not for a personal like or dislike. I'm older and lived through the Arab embargo. The idea of energy independence appealed to me.

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I am also this old, but I am not living in the 1970's anymore. Technology has advanced to the point where renewable energy is getting less costly to produce than fossil fuel-based energy. A study in Colorado points to savings for ratepayers if the state follows the path of deep decarbonization.

Relative to BAU (business as usual), deep decarbonization saves Coloradans $4.8 billion in electricity costs through 2040. Of that, $1.5 billion is invested in renewable energy, electrification, and storage technologies, so the savings net out to $3.3 billion.

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Being this age, I also remember the early advertisement about pollution. The one with the native American looking out over the land of his people with a tear in his eye, land being treated with disdain by the those who stole it.

Funny what we remember from the past and how it influences us.

There is no reasoned conversation to be had with people whose entire political ideology involves catering to the wealthiest and leaving the rest of us to scrounge for scraps. Whose driving needs include taking away rights from women and dehumanizing members of the LGBTQ community. A party that welcomes those who believe White Skin is Superior. A party that desires to impress upon this secular country their fundamentalist religious imprint. A party that cares nothing for the health, safety, or welfare of the citizens whose labor and meager capital makes this economy go, but who cannot accumulate enough savings to cover an unexpected $700 bill, much less make a $2500 campaign donation. A party in thrall to Russia and the NRA, a party that willingly lets mass shootings go on unchecked, a party that separates immigrant children from their parents, locks them in cages, fails to keep proper records, and then and traffics them to white "Christians" to raise in the name of "savior" status.

Nope, I blew past the ability to reason with Republicans long ago. They don't care about reason. They lie openly and often. Proudly. They don't care about what they destroy in the quest for absolute control. In fact, it's the stated goal of many of them to "bring it all down," and every day it's looking more and more like they may get their wish. There is simply no reasoning with people whose abiding mantra is My Way or the Highway.

"One of my proudest moments was when I told Obama, 'You will not fill this Supreme Court vacancy.'" ~Mitch McConnell

redstick said:

I don't have a dog in the impeachment battle.

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If you live in the US, you do. You have to live with the consequences, which could (not hyperbole) mean you are living under a dictatorship. Without checks and balances on the president, he is a dictator, which he's said he wants to be. You think you won't be affected? I assume you're privileged, but no one's privileged enough to be safe under a dictator. That goes for any leader who has been placed above the law, and that's what the GOP seems determined to achieve.

But you're right. If Trump were removed, Pence will still be there to give me my death sentence (ACA goes away, and my insurance stops paying, because I am over the plan's lifetime limit, plus I have dozens of pre-existing conditions from childhood cancer treatments).

redstick said:

The idea of energy independence appealed to me.

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I'm not sure what he advocated that said "energy independence" to you?

redstick said:

So did the appointment of constitutional leaning judges.

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I don't know what this means.

redstick said:

I believe VP Pence can reach the same ends.

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So do I, and that's what's so puzzling to me about all this. I don't understand why y'all have let *rump run roughshod over the Constitution and our democracy when you've got a guy right here who'll give you all the right-leaning judges and institutionalized religion you could possibly want.

I do think Pence is exponentially less likely to nuke a country in a fit of Fox News-induced pique, so he's got that going for him.

redstick said:

The dem's have cried wolf too many times to be taken seriously and are conducting a one-party impeachment.

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There has been a lot of documentation in these hearings. Not understanding where "crying wolf" is coming from. The Dems' only mistake has been the expectation that the GOP will stand for the Constitution and not for crime.

redstick said:

The GOP appears willing to support wrong-doing 'IF' it doesn't rise to the level of impeachment.

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Yeah, why do you suppose that is?

redstick said:

The longer these hearings drag out, the more divided our country.

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Our country has always been divided. It's been divided since we elevated some humans over others in our Constitution. We've had some amendments since then, but the structure of government is built around favoring white men with money.

I suspect the only lesson the GOP might learn from this is that no, we're not going head back to some mythical 1950s society that benefited exactly one demographic without a fight. They've been doing pretty well with the divide-and-conquer since Saint Reagan, but the blatantness with which they're expressing their white nationalist roots is firing a lot of people up. It's getting harder and harder for apologists to make excuses for them. Maybe ultimately that'll help.

Introversion said:

Interesting choice for "energy independence", to support the man who says windmills cause cancer?

As for "constitutional-leaning judges", I'd prefer judges to try to interpret the law through the needs of modern society, not of a time when slavery was legal, women couldn't vote, we lacked a standing army, doctors believed leeches were an effective tool, and generally only children of wealthy landowners were given anything past a grade school education.

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Exactly. Many scholars and historians think the Constitution was written to be a living document, amendable precisely because society evolves and the needs of its populace change.

I have trouble believing folks when they say everything would be just dandy if we still interpreted the Constitution the way the founders might have in the same situation (assuming we can even read their minds, which we can't). Dandy precisely for whom? Not most Americans.

I don't think most Conservatives care about liberal arguments re social justice and what works for most people, though. It generally falls on deaf ears or is mocked as the whining of special snowflakes. As those alt right playbook videos stated, Conservatives care more about maintaining a social status quo and hierarchy, not "stirring things up" by giving marginalized groups more power and legal protection than they traditionally have had.

They think there is a natural social order with some people simply doing better than others because they deserve it. In their view, there is no luck involved (I've had conservatives tell me there is "no such thing" as luck), and no way to raise one group without lowering another (theirs). In their eyes, if women, people of color, LGBTQ people, the poor etc. merited those rights and protections, they would have had them all along. They should suck it up and accept whatever scraps fall from the "high table" of their betters.

Conservatives and liberals have some core values and senses of rightness and wrongness that are pretty antithetical to one another, and I don't know what we can do to bridge the gap. How does one compromise with a group that doesn't actually value compromise as much as you do?

redstick said:

The dem's have cried wolf too many times to be taken seriously....

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Could you cite an example or two?