Help with agent/reader disconnect

jswordy · Dec 11, 2019

I am looking for help about what could be going on here. I'm seven months and 200+ queries in. I've queried everything from large agencies to boutiques. I have been using alternate query letters (A vs. B testing). I have gotten three reads. All of those said no, because they "can't get into the voice" in my manuscript. To me, that means "poorly written." No further critique than that.

However, my manuscript has been beta read by (mostly non-friend) Southern readers, each of whom was asked a specific set of questions about voice, plot, characters and believability. All have been very enthused. It has been read by a successful Southern novelist who has had 10 books published (one made into a movie) but is no longer active. The novelist, also enthusiastic, offered a valuable critique and the manuscript is better for that. The first chapters have been critiqued online by other authors. A sample: "Honestly, this is a great piece, and there's not too much to criticize."

It's an adult crime mystery written primarily for men in present tense and is set in the modern South, where I have lived for 37 years. The characters are authentically drawn from people I've met in my career as a journalist and also from friends. I'm a journeyman reporter and editor who has been writing for 45 years and is currently employed as a writer/editor at a Southern university.

There is an extreme disconnect between the little bit of agent feedback I have received and what my beta readers say and I don't quite know what to do about it. I'm also concerned that that a 200 to 3 ratio may indicate a query letter problem. I have been querying mostly in traditional form: Plot hook, my background, manuscript offer, sample if the guidelines ask for one. My queries have been reviewed by a successful traditionally published author, as well.

I've been a sales director and commissioned salesperson before, so I feel I have some insights into the agent's side of things.

I don't want to self-publish but that is where this appears to be going unless I can figure out the disconnect. So please, any and all help will be appreciated. Thank you.

lizmonster · Dec 11, 2019

Three requests out of 200 queries definitely implicates your query letter.

That said, I'm wondering what this means:

jswordy said:
It's an adult crime mystery written primarily for men

You may be writing outside of your era, and present tense may not be doing you any favors. But if (almost) nobody's getting to pages, it's not worth worrying about any of that at this point.

Participate on the boards, make 50 substantive posts, and get your query letter up for people to look at. It's not doing its job for you.

Gillhoughly · Dec 11, 2019

The present tense is what's screwing it.

Agents do not want to try selling a debut present tense book, especially when the target market will be an adult male audience. Publishers will be wary for the same reason.

Don't bother mentioning Chuck Palahniuk's Fight Club, that was the exception to the rule.

Present tense is a hard sell. Period. I posted this link earlier this week. It's by one of my pro writer friends who has been in the industry for 25+ years. Worth considering.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/pn-e...nt-tense-and-your-first-sale/295178347841124/

Speaking for myself as a former acquisitions editor, the query letter may not matter much. When I opened a submission I skipped them entirely and cold read the sample chapter. If the first page did not hook me, I pasted in the standard rejection. (Publisher's orders.) ONLY if the sub hooked me did I look at the cover/query letter.

My first novel took a long two years to sell and each time it came back I did a rewrite. It would have sold faster had someone told me to delete the first five pages, which were a total snore.

I recommend not keeping track of the number of rejections vs the number of requests. It's only going to depress you.

IF any of those rejections include the least little crumb of feedback, pay attention. That's gold. It's rare these days, too, because electronic submissions means that editors can't scribble a note on the returned paper MS. There were some subs where I wanted to say, "You're almost there, keep writing," or "Delete the first 5 pages, they're a snore." The publisher said not to do that because the writer would ALWAYS write back asking for more detail or wanting to open a dialog. We got in 20-50 subs a day and didn't have the time for that.

AW is your best resource. Take advantage of the feedback forums, trade MS with beta readers.

You will always find fans of present tense, even at the publishers, but you may want to revise a couple chapters to the usual past tense, and then submit those instead to see what happens.

I also add that relying on a query alone is not going to sell a book. Do a cover letter and sample chapters from now on. I wrote the worse queries/covers ever back in the day. I still do. Interest only ever happens when I put in sample chapters.

Make sure the opening five pages have a solid hook and that the hook drags the reader into the next five pages. And the next. A slow start with characters waking up, weather reports, or dream sequences were an auto-reject for me. We read books to escape the mundane.

You may want to read some Joe Lansdale, who is an expert in regional fiction. This is the opening to The Two Bear Mambo:

When I got over to Leonard's Christmas Eve night, he had the Kentucky Headhunters turned way up over at his place, and they were singing "The Ballad of Davy Crockett," and Leonard, in a kind of Christmas celebration, was once again setting fire to the house next door.

I wished he'd quit doing that. I'd helped him the first time. He'd done the second time on his own, and now here I was, third time out, driving up.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307455491/?tag=absowrit-20

jswordy · Dec 11, 2019

Gillhoughly said:
The present tense is what's screwing it.

Agents do not want to try selling a debut present tense book, especially when the target market will be an adult male audience. Publishers will be wary for the same reason.

Don't bother mentioning Chuck Palahniuk's Fight Club, that was the exception to the rule.

Present tense is a hard sell. Period. I posted this link earlier this week. It's by one of my pro writer friends who has been in the industry for 25+ years. Worth considering.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/pn-e...nt-tense-and-your-first-sale/295178347841124/

Speaking for myself as a former acquisitions editor, the query letter may not matter much. When I opened a submission I skipped them entirely and cold read the sample chapter. If the first page did not hook me, I pasted in the standard rejection. (Publisher's orders.) ONLY if the sub hooked me did I look at the cover/query letter.

My first novel took a long two years to sell and each time it came back I did a rewrite. It would have sold faster had someone told me to delete the first five pages, which were a total snore.

I recommend not keeping track of the number of rejections vs the number of requests. It's only going to depress you.

IF any of those rejections include the least little crumb of feedback, pay attention. That's gold. It's rare these days, too, because electronic submissions means that editors can't scribble a note on the returned paper MS. There were some subs where I wanted to say, "You're almost there, keep writing," or "Delete the first 5 pages, they're a snore." The publisher said not to do that because the writer would ALWAYS write back asking for more detail or wanting to open a dialog. We got in 20-50 subs a day and didn't have the time for that.

AW is your best resource. Take advantage of the feedback forums, trade MS with beta readers.

You will always find fans of present tense, even at the publishers, but you may want to revise a couple chapters to the usual past tense, and then submit those instead to see what happens.

I also add that relying on a query alone is not going to sell a book. Do a cover letter and sample chapters from now on. I wrote the worse queries/covers ever back in the day. I still do. Interest only ever happens when I put in sample chapters.

Make sure the opening five pages have a solid hook and that the hook drags the reader into the next five pages. And the next. A slow start with characters waking up, weather reports, or dream sequences were an auto-reject for me. We read books to escape the mundane.

You may want to read some Joe Lansdale, who is an expert in regional fiction. This is the opening to The Two Bear Mambo:

When I got over to Leonard's Christmas Eve night, he had the Kentucky Headhunters turned way up over at his place, and they were singing "The Ballad of Davy Crockett," and Leonard, in a kind of Christmas celebration, was once again setting fire to the house next door.

I wished he'd quit doing that. I'd helped him the first time. He'd done the second time on his own, and now here I was, third time out, driving up.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307455491/?tag=absowrit-20

Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it. Yes, I have been rewriting based on successful novelist input and beta reader critiques. I can write it in past tense, change perspective, write backward, forward or upside down. Here's the current lead ... what do you think?

“Who bird-dogs a jogger on the beach? I wasn’t watching that close.”

It’s unbelievable, the spot Ty Conner finds himself in. Sylvia, too.

Dauphin Island Police Chief Darryl Langston’s tapping their credentials on his hand. Tap-tap-tap. Tap-tap-tap.

They’re standing on the beach. Cops all over the place. A woman’s body by the water. And questions.

Woollybear · Dec 11, 2019

Two thoughts.

FWIW,

(1) I recently had a beta reader tell me he could not get into my voice because of the sentence fragments. 2 cents. I plan to back off the fragments in my ongoing writing, and you could consider doing the same if the idea rings true to you.

(2) I'm curious if you're having any women beta read your novel, and their response if you have.

Of those 200 queries, my bet is that 150 or more were assessed at least in part by women, and some fraction of that being young women (younger than you or I).

As an anecdote, there are some excellent writers in our local groups, but there also tends to be some male sex fantasy stuff in various excerpts offered by maybe 30% of the male writers. Other male writers in the group simply don't have any women whatsoever in their work. And others have women looking at their bodies in the mirror and admiring themselves or some other similar silliness.

If you haven't taken a woman's beta read into account, you might consider doing so. Because, if twitter agents ( and other conversations I've had with folks in the industry) are any indication (and your bit about a male audience catches my eye as well, and a dead woman, presumably scantily clad, being your hook...) there is more male sex fantasy floating around than what ... the industry seeks.

lizmonster · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy, this isn't a crit board. You can hit one of the "Hook me in 200 words" threads for your opener. For something more substantive, you want to get to 50 posts and head to Share Your Work (in fact, participating there is an excellent way to get to 50 posts, get to know the community, and maximize your chances of people giving you feedback).

Gillhoughy makes some good points, but I was assuming you were querying without sending pages. Regardless, a lot of agents will decide based on the query alone, even if pages came with it. I'd recommend getting Share Your Work feedback on both your query and your first chapter.

(And I still don't know what "written primarily for men" means.)

KBooks · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy said:
Here's the current lead ... what do you think?

“Who bird-dogs a jogger on the beach? I wasn’t watching that close.”

It’s unbelievable, the spot Ty Conner finds himself in. Sylvia, too.

Dauphin Island Police Chief Darryl Langston’s tapping their credentials on his hand. Tap-tap-tap. Tap-tap-tap.

They’re standing on the beach. Cops all over the place. A woman’s body by the water. And questions.

If you would like to get crits on your opening to your manuscript, or your query, the place to do that is SYW. However in order to post there, you need to have 50 posts on this site first. A great way to get up to 50 posts is to go over to SYW and critique other people's queries. Often that will help you get into the groove and if there is anything about your query that is different from the style of the suggested query formatting, that will quickly become apparent as you read the stickies, see comments from other critters, etc. It can be a very helpful exercise that will not only help others, but improve your own work as well.

Help me to understand "written primarily for men." I read a lot of mysteries, thrillers, crime novels, CIA and spy thrillers, and so do my female friends on Goodreads.

-Riv- · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy said:
what do you think?

“Who bird-dogs a jogger on the beach? I wasn’t watching that close.”

It’s unbelievable, the spot Ty Conner finds himself in. Sylvia, too.

Dauphin Island Police Chief Darryl Langston’s tapping their credentials on his hand. Tap-tap-tap. Tap-tap-tap.

They’re standing on the beach. Cops all over the place. A woman’s body by the water. And questions.

Here's the link to the Mystery/thriller/suspense "hook me in 200 words" thread in the Share Your Work section of the forum where you can post an opening for crit before you have the 50 substantive posts required for posting a longer excerpt. That said, it's a good idea not only to post your own work for crit, but to jump in and offer feedback to others. Get to know the community!

All the best,
Riv

P.S. I think you'll get some valuable feedback on that opening if you post.

waylander · Dec 11, 2019

Have a long read of Queryshark and see if your query letter is really doing its job because it sounds like it isn't - the agent who writes Queryshark handles crime. https://queryshark.blogspot.com/

jswordy · Dec 11, 2019

Patty said:
Two thoughts.

FWIW,

(1) I recently had a beta reader tell me he could not get into my voice because of the sentence fragments. 2 cents. I plan to back off the fragments in my ongoing writing, and you could consider doing the same if the idea rings true to you.

(2) I'm curious if you're having any women beta read your novel, and their response if you have.

Of those 200 queries, my bet is that 150 or more were assessed at least in part by women, and some fraction of that being young women (younger than you or I).

As an anecdote, there are some excellent writers in our local groups, but there also tends to be some male sex fantasy stuff in various excerpts offered by maybe 30% of the male writers. Other male writers in the group simply don't have any women whatsoever in their work. And others have women looking at their bodies in the mirror and admiring themselves or some other similar silliness.

If you haven't taken a woman's beta read into account, you might consider doing so. Because, if twitter agents ( and other conversations I've had with folks in the industry) are any indication (and your bit about a male audience catches my eye as well, and a dead woman, presumably scantily clad, being your hook...) there is more male sex fantasy floating around than what ... the industry seeks.

Thanks for your comments. I am familiar with test marketing mechanics, so the betas have been an equal mixture of males and females, and all were asked the same set of questions. All are positive. Thanks for the sentence fragment tip. I'll look into that.

The dead woman is not scantily clad and not a bimbo. No sex fantasy stuff is involved. It's a murder mystery.

As far as agents, the vast majority of them today are females, that is true. The two protagonists in the manuscript are a male and female in a loose relationship, both strong characters in their own rights. That creates a subplot. I am writing now three books down the road in this series, so this offering is just the starting point. I have also written with a marketing objective in mind. The female lead can easily become a series of her own. But this manuscript and series is mainly concentrated on the male detective.

I have no problem with rewriting perspective, etc., as long as the story itself is not changed. I do that daily in my day job. I offered to one agent to change the lead characters to all females and add the popular LGBTQ angle, if she felt it would make it acceptable. Easy enough to do. She said no, it was the voice.

I am writing in a genre in which I can rattle off any number of published authors of my age (like Harlan Coben) so I do not consider me "writing beyond my era," as was suggested, as a problem. If I was writing YA, maybe. Of course, there comes a point where I am not going to change things anymore. It is approaching, but I am not quite there yet. Having met a handful of indie writers who have sold 50,000 copies plus, I'm not afraid of going the selfie route. It's just not the primary path I'd like to be on.

I do appreciate all you wrote and will incorporate it.

jswordy · Dec 11, 2019

waylander said:
Have a long read of Queryshark and see if your query letter is really doing its job becasue it sounds like it isn't - the agent who writes Queryshark handles crime. https://queryshark.blogspot.com/

Thank you for this suggestion. I will.

lizmonster · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy said:
I am writing in a genre in which I can rattle off any number of published authors of my age (like Harlan Coben) so I do not consider me "writing beyond my era," as was suggested, as a problem.

1) Harlan Coben has been around for a while.
2) I used the phrase "writing outside of your era" because I was trying to parse what you meant by "written primarily for men" and that was the best I could come up with. Perhaps if you explained the phrase it would give us more of a window into what the difficulty might be.

jswordy · Dec 11, 2019

-Riv- said:
Here's the link to the Mystery/thriller/suspense "hook me in 200 words" thread in the Share Your Work section of the forum where you can post an opening for crit before you have the 50 substantive posts required for posting a longer excerpt. That said, it's a good idea not only to post your own work for crit, but to jump in and offer feedback to others. Get to know the community!

All the best,
Riv

P.S. I think you'll get some valuable feedback on that opening if you post.

Thank you. I have already received valuable feedback from the author of 10 traditionally published novels on it. The impediment here is that I am promoting this work, writing the third book on the series, working full-time as a writer/editor and operating my small business. So it may be a long way to 50 "substantial" posts. I have had the work critiqued on other writing sites. I may get there and be able to try it here, eventually.

JJ Litke · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy said:
It's an adult crime mystery written primarily for men

Why would you feel the need to say that? Crime mystery doesn’t strike me as a genre that men are embarrassed to read, and besides, women make up the majority of the audience for that. So you’re telling agents that you’ve got a book that will not appeal to more than half the typical target audience for that genre.

jswordy · Dec 11, 2019

lizmonster said:
1) Harlan Coben has been around for a while.

Thank you. I have been around awhile, too, as a journalist and editor. Just not as a novelist. The last news release I wrote appeared in 72 countries. That's not a brag. It happens all the time.

I target my audience and I write to them. I don't only write to please myself and then see what happens. The primary reader of this material is male and age 25-54. The primary targeted reader lives in the Southern region or in the state of Illinois (the fifth most populous state in the country). Now, that's not to say there isn't a broader audience. The setting is an island that has its own fan base east of the Mississippi River and nationally. This is a crime mystery involving detectives. Etc. So, there are intentionally a lot of sales hooks. Oh, did I exclude females as readers? Of course not. The beta testing proved that out.

- - - Updated - - -

JJ Litke said:
Why would you feel the need to say that? Crime mystery doesn’t strike me as a genre that men are embarrassed to read, and besides, women make up the majority of the audience for that. So you’re telling agents that you’ve got a book that will not appeal to more than half the typical target audience for that genre.

I write to a target audience.

-Riv- · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy said:
Thank you. I have already received valuable feedback from the author of 10 traditionally published novels on it.

All-righty then.

jswordy said:
The impediment here is that I am promoting this work, writing the third book on the series, working full-time as a writer/editor and operating my small business. So it may be a long way to 50 "substantial" posts. I have had the work critiqued on other writing sites. I may get there and be able to try it here, eventually.

As noted, you can post a short opening now, but if you're satisfied with your opening, I'm not sure why you posted it in this thread and asked "What do you think?" We can't tell you what we think in this thread because it isn't a crit thread, but we can in the other one. You have trade published authors, editors, and experienced writers responding to you in this thread and encouraging you to get feedback on that opening because there is definitely some feedback to give.

All the best,
Riv

lizmonster · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy said:
I target my audience and I write to them. I don't only write to please myself and then see what happens. The primary reader of this material is male and age 25-54. The primary targeted reader lives in the Southern region or in the state of Illinois (the fifth most populous state in the country).

I'm aware of what a targeted audience is. What makes this book "primarily written for men"? What is it about the book that aims it at them?

Woollybear · Dec 11, 2019

What makes this book "primarily written for men"? What is it about the book that aims it at them?

I too am curious about this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the problem is 'voice' (the feedback you've received--let's take it at face value) then my thoughts are that there may be inconsistency in your authorial voice, or it may be more 'journalistic' than literary. That could be an issue. (Some) agents prefer voicey writing (... sentence fragments were my personal attempt to get there.)

Have you explored developing the literary end of your voice? To try to nudge yourself little bit along the spectrum?

Another FWIW... One of my critique partners says I tend toward providing the facts without the human response. This is an issue in my voice. When she said this, I recognized what she was saying. She compared my paragraphs to a piece of string that is *just* too short to tie a knot in. And the extra length of string needed to tie the knot is the human response to the events.

I tend toward journalistic (dry, technical) writing.

There's plenty 'out there' about the pitfalls journalists must avoid when attempting fiction.

https://niemanstoryboard.org/stories/peter-ginna-bloomsbury-journalists-book-length-narrative/

jswordy · Dec 11, 2019

Patty said:
I too am curious about this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If it is 'voice' (the feedback you have received--let's take it at face value) then my thoughts are that there may be inconsistency in your authorial voice, or it may be more 'journalistic' than literary. That could be an issue. (Some) agents prefer voicey writing (... sentence fragments were my personal attempt to get there.)

Have you explored developing the literary end of your voice?

Thanks. Journalism major/creative writing minor. I have been writing short stories and poems for 50 years.

Another FWIW... One of my critique partners says I tend toward providing the facts without the human response. This is an issue in my voice. When she said this, I recognized what she was saying. She compared my paragraphs to a piece of string that is *just* too short to tie a knot in. And the extra length of string needed to tie the knot is the human response to the events.

I'll just quote one of the betas: "As for flow, your writing style is easy to read and follow. Great descriptors. Lots of vivid details peppered throughout. The resort has come to life in my mind."

I tend toward journalistic (dry, technical) writing.

There's plenty 'out there' about the pitfalls journalists must avoid when attempting fiction.

https://niemanstoryboard.org/stories/peter-ginna-bloomsbury-journalists-book-length-narrative/

Thanks again for your comments.

Roxxsmom · Dec 11, 2019

"Can't get into the voice" sounds like a simple form rejection, and a pretty common one at that. Unfortunately, you can't read anything into rejection letters aside from the fact that the agent is passing--even when they are for requested material--unless they contain feedback about specific elements of your story. Few agents have the time or inclination in the day of e-submissions to give this kind of feedback, as I understand it, perhaps because they worry that detailed feedback will invite debate or "negotiation" on the part of the rejected party.

Sometimes rejections on requested material aren't due to poor writing, or even a "meh" story, but simply because it doesn't float that particular agent's boat, or because they don't personally know of any editors looking for that kind of thing at the moment. And agents have personal preference as to style and story content too. On the other hand, it could mean there's something about those opening pages, or the transition between chapters or the characters or the voice or whatever that isn't grabbing them.

It's odd and unfair, because there are novels, successful ones even, that break with conventional advice and succeed. Some even have openings that (in my opinion) are quite dull. I put countless novels down unread, or abandon many after a couple of chapters, for various reasons. I am a big voice reader. I want to connect with the protagonist emotionally from the beginning. I also like openings that get me wondering what the heck is going on and why. But some people love slow openings with what I think of as a generic voice, or prefer lots of stage setting and explanation of a situation up front. There's no formula.

Woollybear · Dec 11, 2019

"As for flow, your writing style is easy to read and follow. Great descriptors. Lots of vivid details peppered throughout. The resort has come to life in my mind."

...which has nothing to do with how human, and real, the characters are (or are not.). That was the point of the rambling I provided in the previous post.

My guess is that you are not writing fully-realized characters. If so, it could read as a weak voice. Of course, none of us could really say, but you did say in the OP that any thoughts were welcome.

Best of luck. That's all I have for you in terms of thoughts. It's hard to land an agent, and harder yet to land a publishing deal.

Respectfully,
Patty

InsomniaShark · Dec 11, 2019

I don't have a copy of the e-mail exchange anymore, but several years ago a shark expert contacted Discovery and asked why the focus of Shark Week was shifting from educational to dramatic/sensationalism/dishonesty. The response was that their target audience was 18-35 year-old males. So they made Shark Week more popular among people who don't know much about sharks, while alienating a lot of shark enthusiasts/experts.

It's totally possible that one audience (like beta testers) might find the book okay, but doing things to appeal to a specific target audience could still alienate others (like agents) somehow.

But, yeah, my first thought about "targeting a male audience" is similar to Patty's since I used to participate in an almost exclusively male writing group. I'd assume any female character was going to be a poorly written sex object. Do you actually mention your target audience in your query letter? Maybe cut it out if you do.

lizmonster · Dec 11, 2019

We are, in truth, all trying to help you. A 3/200 request rate indicates a problem somewhere, and whether it's the query, the tense, or the pages themselves, something is almost certainly up. All we have to go on is what you've told us, and we tend to prefer first hand information to the word of betas we don't know, or even 10 trade-published authors. (Publication doesn't magically make someone a good critter, btw. Critique is a whole different skill set.)

My guess is you've got a serious problem with the query. I'm less worried about the tense, but I just queried a present-tense novel, so I'm biased there; Gillhoughy is much more of an expert on that point.

Your statement of your target audience is also somewhat concerning, because as JJ points out, crime fiction is largely consumed by women. But I'm more concerned that you don't seem able to articulate exactly what it is about the book that targets it specifically to men. You may be aiming your work in the wrong direction, and that might factor into your difficulties as well.

Having said all that: good books get missed all the time. By 200 agents? That's less likely, but it's absolutely possible. It's best, though, to re-examine your submission pack to make sure you're giving your work the best chance it can get.

cornflake · Dec 11, 2019

I would also encourage you to post in 200 words, because that opening may be problematic. I won't expand because this isn't a crit thread.

Your query may also be problematic.

It's hard to tell from bits of anything.

The 'a published author read it' isn't really meaningful. Some are great writers themselves and bad editors. Some are good at both. Some are mediocre writers who have great editors. Some are other things. Life is funny that way.

jswordy · Dec 11, 2019

-Riv- said:
All-righty then.

As noted, you can post a short opening now, but if you're satisfied with your opening, I'm not sure why you posted it in this thread and asked "What do you think?" We can't tell you what we think in this thread because it isn't a crit thread, but we can in the other one. You have trade published authors, editors, and experienced writers responding to you in this thread and encouraging you to get feedback on that opening because there is definitely some feedback to give.

All the best,
Riv

Sorry that was misinterpreted. I asked the OP what he thought. It was a reply. Thanks for the comment.

Help with agent/reader disconnect

jswordy

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

jswordy

Woollybear

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

KBooks

-Riv-

The much appreciated

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

jswordy

jswordy

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

jswordy

JJ Litke

People are not wearing enough hats

jswordy

-Riv-

The much appreciated

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Woollybear

jswordy

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Woollybear

InsomniaShark

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

jswordy