Help with agent/reader disconnect

mccardey · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy said:
Sorry that was misinterpreted. I asked the OP what he thought. It was a reply. Thanks for the comment.

You are the OP.

I’m not sure if you realise that you’re coming across as pretty dismissive and very defensive. No-one’s attacking you. We’re all writers, many of us professional, many of us reasonably old, and all of us perfectly lovely. :e2flowers

See?

The response sounds like a form, and the good news is that that means your query is probably the reason why you’ve only had three reads. The agents who read agree on the problem - so that’s also good. We could help with that and with the query if you were interested in becoming part of the community. If not, that’s fine. Another way you could go is to hire a developmental editor - even at this late stage, they might be able to identify your issue and it explain it in more depth if you need that.

Congrats on finishing - books can be trickier than people think, and query letters are hell itself.

Woollybear · Dec 11, 2019

jswordy said:
Sorry that was misinterpreted. I asked the OP what he thought. It was a reply. Thanks for the comment.

I take this to mean the manuscript's author is not the one participating on this thread?

That's misleading to all of us, if true.

-Riv- · Dec 11, 2019

Patty said:
I take this to mean the manuscript's author is not the one participating on this thread?

That's misleading to all of us, if true.

I thiiiink they meant they were asking for Gillhoughly's opinion and not for other people's opinions on their opening.
:Shrug:

Woollybear · Dec 11, 2019

Aha. Thank you, Riv, and sorry for the misunderstanding, JSWordy.

(I will now depart for real. Goodbye!)

cool pop · Dec 11, 2019

lizmonster said:
I'm aware of what a targeted audience is. What makes this book "primarily written for men"? What is it about the book that aims it at them?

cool pop · Dec 11, 2019

I wonder, are you putting in your query letter that this book is aimed at men? Because that could be why you aren't getting looks past the query. You do realize women are the largest demographic of readers by far? So that means that when you tell an agent or pub your book is for men you are basically telling them to bypass the largest group of readers (women) and leave money on the table. If you are doing this, stop because it could be hurting you. Work on trying to get interest in the book and if the agent or pub likes it, let it go from there. Don't start out sabotaging your chances by telling an agent that the largest demographic of readers most likely won't buy the book. :Shrug:

Arden · Dec 11, 2019

cool pop said:
I wonder, are you putting in your query letter that this book is aimed at men? Because that could be why you aren't getting looks past the query.

The OP's description baffled me because I really don't know what an "adult crime mystery primarily for men" could possibly look like. Lee Child's Jack Reacher series is devoured by both male and female readers even though the protagonist is male with a vast knowledge of weapons.

So I'm curious as to why the OP described his novel that way, as I very much agree with cool pop and others that this description may be off-putting to an agent.

Sonya Heaney · Dec 11, 2019

I have NO idea what "bird-dogs" means, but that might be a cultural difference ...

Edit: and, yeah, publishing is largely a women's world (agents and editors). Telling people the book is for men won't help you.

Hey - I was a professional ballet kid AND a Terminator fan. I wore my Terminator t-shirt to ballet class. Be careful not to dismiss women.

InsomniaShark · Dec 12, 2019

Sonya Heaney said:
I have NO idea what "bird-dogs" means, but that might be a cultural difference ...

As far as I know, it means to pursue other peoples' girlfriends/dates. The only time I've ever heard the term was in Don Woody's "Bird Dog" and the Everly Brothers' "Bird Dog." Both songs are from the 50's.

jswordy · Dec 12, 2019

Thanks again for all the replies. I am incorporating some of the most constructive ones going forward.

I have a strong sense of where the project is and it's almost there, and many comments here have been helpful. I had a live back and forth with an agent who said it was well-written but she just couldn't get into the voice. I found the spots she objected to. That was two revisions ago. It's smoother now. It was also really strange, how those three read requests came one after another, and then along long string of rejections again. I know there's a flip side at work, the demand side or "list" side, but I just don't understand how that works behind the curtain.

BTW, "bird-dog" is an extremely common Southern expression. It means "to look out for." Like a bird dog looks out for birds and points them out to a hunter. I do recognize the cultural line I cross with the project, because Alabama is definitely not New York City. I also understand that what are common behaviors and expressions here - stuff no one even looks twice at - could be considered stereotypical up North. That's just part of it, as they say here.

I'm rewriting lightly for tense and structure. The story has been gone through enough that it's set. I'll review the query letter again, as well. There's always room to improve.

As an editor, I've bought lots of stuff from writers over the years, so I know how easy it is to just go, meh, meh, meh, meh, I want that one, meh, meh, etc. I understand that parsing process, though I worked with many freelancers to make their stuff better so I could buy it. I'm still getting used to a world where 3 pages as a make or break for a 365 page manuscript.

Now I need to get back to the writing that I have done to make my living all these years. I do appreciate everyone who replied.

Helix · Dec 12, 2019

I'm still interested in knowing how a book 'written for men' differs from other crime novels, but I guess we'll never find out. :Shrug:

lizmonster · Dec 12, 2019

Helix said:
I'm still interested in knowing how a book 'written for men' differs from other crime novels, but I guess we'll never find out.

I'm guessing the presumption is a hard-boiled male detective = written for men.

To which I can only say: if women never read books with male protagonists, we'd have had nothing to read in English class.

Roxxsmom · Dec 12, 2019

lizmonster said:
I'm guessing the presumption is a hard-boiled male detective = written for men.

To which I can only say: if women never read books with male protagonists, we'd have had nothing to read in English class.

I think the reason women are generally more willing to read books by male authors (with or without male protagonists) is precisely because we had to read so many when we were in school. It establishes that as normal, while guys don't get the same opportunity to normalize female narratives.

cool pop · Dec 12, 2019

Arden said:
The OP's description baffled me because I really don't know what an "adult crime mystery primarily for men" could possibly look like. Lee Child's Jack Reacher series is devoured by both male and female readers even though the protagonist is male with a vast knowledge of weapons.

So I'm curious as to why the OP described his novel that way, as I very much agree with cool pop and others that this description may be off-putting to an agent.

I'm confused too because I'm a female who writes crime fiction, mysteries and thrillers. I love those genres and can't imagine why the OP assumes women wouldn't like the book. It's outright sexist. And like so many on the thread have asked, what about this book makes it a book for men specifically?

cool pop · Dec 12, 2019

jswordy said:
Thanks again for all the replies. I am incorporating some of the most constructive ones going forward.

I have a strong sense of where the project is and it's almost there, and many comments here have been helpful. I had a live back and forth with an agent who said it was well-written but she just couldn't get into the voice. I found the spots she objected to. That was two revisions ago. It's smoother now. It was also really strange, how those three read requests came one after another, and then along long string of rejections again. I know there's a flip side at work, the demand side or "list" side, but I just don't understand how that works behind the curtain.

BTW, "bird-dog" is an extremely common Southern expression. It means "to look out for." Like a bird dog looks out for birds and points them out to a hunter. I do recognize the cultural line I cross with the project, because Alabama is definitely not New York City. I also understand that what are common behaviors and expressions here - stuff no one even looks twice at - could be considered stereotypical up North. That's just part of it, as they say here.

I'm rewriting lightly for tense and structure. The story has been gone through enough that it's set. I'll review the query letter again, as well. There's always room to improve.

As an editor, I've bought lots of stuff from writers over the years, so I know how easy it is to just go, meh, meh, meh, meh, I want that one, meh, meh, etc. I understand that parsing process, though I worked with many freelancers to make their stuff better so I could buy it. I'm still getting used to a world where 3 pages as a make or break for a 365 page manuscript.

Now I need to get back to the writing that I have done to make my living all these years. I do appreciate everyone who replied.

Can you please answer why you feel this book is not for women? Unless I missed the reply, I didn't catch your response. I would love to hear why you feel women wouldn't read this book.

Putputt · Dec 13, 2019

My memory is terrible nowadays, so I’ll have to write out my reply in point form...bear with me!

1. 3:200 success rate is definitely a sign that there is something wrong with the query and/or opening pages. Get up to 50 posts and post your query on QLH and your opening pages on SYW.

2. Not falling in love with voice is a pretty typical form R and can mean anything from not liking the character to not liking the writing. Unfortunately, it’s not really feedback you can work with.

3. Specifying that it’s a thing for male readers is limiting and yeah, pretty sexist, and will probably turn off some agents. Because sexism, but also because as previously pointed out, women read a lot more, and we don’t just read “women’s fiction” or whatever people think we read. We read widely, and plenty of women are into hard crime thrillers, me being one of them. So if that’s in your query, I would leave it out.

4. The bit about offering to add “popular LGBTQ angle” made me cringe. Please don’t add marginalized characters as a crutch to make your book more palatable.

Hope this helps!

BenPanced · Dec 13, 2019

jswordy said:
I have no problem with rewriting perspective, etc., as long as the story itself is not changed. I do that daily in my day job. I offered to one agent to change the lead characters to all females and add the popular LGBTQ angle, if she felt it would make it acceptable. Easy enough to do. She said no, it was the voice.

Putputt said:
4. The bit about offering to add “popular LGBTQ angle” made me cringe. Please don’t add marginalized characters as a crutch to make your book more palatable.

What Putputt said[sup]10[/sup]. If it isn't already a natural part of the story, it'll be a cheap, obvious way to work in An Issue and it'll come across as pandering. You'll alienate readers in the process.

Sonya Heaney · Dec 14, 2019

InsomniaShark said:
As far as I know, it means to pursue other peoples' girlfriends/dates. The only time I've ever heard the term was in Don Woody's "Bird Dog" and the Everly Brothers' "Bird Dog." Both songs are from the 50's.

Ah … Thanks. And what a great reason to delete such an obscure term from an opening sentence when querying. Between the sexist introduction and the unusual term as the second word in the manuscript, there are the issues.

The thing is, once you have an agent, or have sold a book, there are always edits. So, maybe query without the things that might disqualify you, and then put them back in later (except the misogyny!). My last edits came with a note to me: sometimes simple is better. It's not dumbing down the book; it's making sure readers don't get frustrated with things they can't relate to.

InsomniaShark · Dec 14, 2019

Sonya Heaney said:
Ah … Thanks. And what a great reason to delete such an obscure term from an opening sentence when querying. Between the sexist introduction and the unusual term as the second word in the manuscript, there are the issues.

The thing is, once you have an agent, or have sold a book, there are always edits. So, maybe query without the things that might disqualify you, and then put them back in later (except the misogyny!). My last edits came with a note to me: sometimes simple is better. It's not dumbing down the book; it's making sure readers don't get frustrated with things they can't relate to.

The OP clarified in a later post that "bird dog" is a common Southern expression meaning "to look out for." He also mentioned in his first post that his draft has been read by Southern beta readers and a successful Southern novelist. Maybe the agents he's queried don't live in the South and that's why he's getting comments about "voice"? A lot of unfamiliar expressions/terms would be distracting and make it hard to get into a book.

cool pop · Dec 14, 2019

I've heard of "bird dog". I'm from the South and so is my whole family. That term was way before my time though. I wasn't born anywhere near the 50's. I heard it from hillbillies in old western movies. Never heard of anyone actually saying it in real life. My dad probably has. He's in his 70's.

Not sure how common it is in this day and age or if it's ever been that common in Texas. Or if it has, what parts of Texas. Texas is huge and very diverse and I could see the smaller, tinier towns probably still using it. I'm from H-town. No one's saying "bird dog" here. ROFL!

The south is not monolithic (very diverse state contrary to popular belief) so things that might be common in some cities, counties, or states won't be in others.

mccardey · Dec 15, 2019

jswordy said:
I have no problem with rewriting perspective, etc., as long as the story itself is not changed. I do that daily in my day job. I offered to one agent to change the lead characters to all females and add the popular LGBTQ angle, if she felt it would make it acceptable. Easy enough to do.

Oh, dear. I don’t imagine that went well.

Barbara R. · Dec 15, 2019

jswordy said:
I am looking for help about what could be going on here. I'm seven months and 200+ queries in. I've queried everything from large agencies to boutiques. I have been using alternate query letters (A vs. B testing). I have gotten three reads. All of those said no, because they "can't get into the voice" in my manuscript. To me, that means "poorly written." No further critique than that.

However, my manuscript has been beta read by (mostly non-friend) Southern readers, each of whom was asked a specific set of questions about voice, plot, characters and believability. All have been very enthused. It has been read by a successful Southern novelist who has had 10 books published (one made into a movie) but is no longer active. The novelist, also enthusiastic, offered a valuable critique and the manuscript is better for that. The first chapters have been critiqued online by other authors. A sample: "Honestly, this is a great piece, and there's not too much to criticize."

It's an adult crime mystery written primarily for men in present tense and is set in the modern South, where I have lived for 37 years. The characters are authentically drawn from people I've met in my career as a journalist and also from friends. I'm a journeyman reporter and editor who has been writing for 45 years and is currently employed as a writer/editor at a Southern university.

There is an extreme disconnect between the little bit of agent feedback I have received and what my beta readers say and I don't quite know what to do about it. I'm also concerned that that a 200 to 3 ratio may indicate a query letter problem. I have been querying mostly in traditional form: Plot hook, my background, manuscript offer, sample if the guidelines ask for one. My queries have been reviewed by a successful traditionally published author, as well.

I've been a sales director and commissioned salesperson before, so I feel I have some insights into the agent's side of things.

I don't want to self-publish but that is where this appears to be going unless I can figure out the disconnect. So please, any and all help will be appreciated. Thank you.

First of all, with only 3 requests out of 200 submissions, you are right to be concerned about your query package. One of my students just got requests for pages from 3 of 8 agents she submitted to, and that was all query letter, no previous publications. That's an unusually high percentage, but her story is high-concept and easier than most to convey in a few lines. But your percentage is really low, so I'm guessing one of two things is going on: either the premise of the novel seems untenable to agents or some part of the query --the letter, sample pages or synopsis, if you've been sending one---is turning agents off. I'm only sorry that you sent out 200 queries before addressing the issue, whatever it is, because those agents were presumably your top choices. But what's done is done. Stories like yours are why I recently inaugurated a workshop on breaking into print for fiction writers. (I'd invite you to sign on, but the workshop just ended.) But AW has a forum where you can post your query letter and get feedback---if you haven't already, it's worth trying.

Query letters are really hard! Synopses are torture. There's a lot that can go wrong. If you're sending opening pages with your queries, it may also be that your writing is not yet where it needs to be. If you want a frank, detailed reaction to those opening pages, you can get one here. I was a literary agent for 14 years, and I've seen every type of query fail there is...as well as some drop-dead great ones.

It's a frustrating process, but you're not alone.

Woollybear · Dec 15, 2019

In the 80s at Purdue University (Indiana) I belonged to a club that handed out an annual 'bird dog' award. 'Bird Dog' in JSWordy's opening did not bother me or throw me for a loop at all.

goddessofgliese · Dec 16, 2019

Barbara R. said:
I'm only sorry that you sent out 200 queries before addressing the issue, whatever it is, because those agents were presumably your top choices. But what's done is done.

Judging from the comments section on query tracker, it seems that plenty of agents will accept re-query if you query again at least 6 months later and tell them it has been heavily revised.

Sonya Heaney · Dec 16, 2019

InsomniaShark said:
The OP clarified in a later post that "bird dog" is a common Southern expression meaning "to look out for." He also mentioned in his first post that his draft has been read by Southern beta readers and a successful Southern novelist. Maybe the agents he's queried don't live in the South and that's why he's getting comments about "voice"? A lot of unfamiliar expressions/terms would be distracting and make it hard to get into a book.

It's possible I stopped reading properly after a while. :roll:

I'm not in America, but surely most agents are in other parts of the country?

Anyway, if I was reading a query that told me the book was written for men, I'd be rejecting it. Being a blonde woman who's still fairly young(!) I get VERY tired of sexist assumptions.

Help with agent/reader disconnect

mccardey

Woollybear

-Riv-

The much appreciated

Woollybear

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty

Arden

Happy to be here!

Sonya Heaney

InsomniaShark

jswordy

Helix

socially distancing

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty

Putputt

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

Sonya Heaney

InsomniaShark

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty

mccardey

Barbara R.

Old Hand in the Biz

Woollybear

goddessofgliese

Sonya Heaney