U.S. public impeachment hearings

Introversion · Nov 13, 2019

I've been listening today, to the extent that I have time and attention to give it, to the live streaming of it. I'm sure there are many ways to do so; I just happened to use the NBC News link, which is:

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/watch-live-trump-impeachment-inquiry-hearings-73286213870

Today's testimony is from William Taylor (a U.S. diplomat to Ukraine) and George Kent (a State Department official).

I believe the Democrats had a first chance to question them, but I came into the live-stream when Republicans were getting a chance to interview them.

I must say, Taylor is not a great witness if you're going by how quickly or emphatically a witness responds. He often asks for questions to be repeated, often seems to stumble and cast about for how to respond. I don't have any reason this has any bearing on the truthfulness of what he's testified to, but if you want to make this look like he's in any way an untrustworthy witness, you'll focus on Taylor rather than Kent (who is much crisper and confident in his responses), and the Republican questioning is indeed pursuing Taylor almost exclusively.

Regretfully, I missed seeing/hearing the name of the GOP questioner, but he's clearly pursuing a strategy (as expected) of painting a picture of Trump's interactions of Ukraine as being 1) normal (indeed, warranted due to concerns about whether Ukraine interfered with the 2016 election) and 2) about the Bidens solely because of #1. This seems to me to strictly be a tactic to distract and raise doubt about the Democrats' narrative. I don't know whether it'll work; I suspect it will and does for those who primarily consume news from conservative media sources?

Schiff, in followup questions, seems to be decent on putting the focus of questions back onto the issue of whether Trump extorted another nation's leader for personal gain.

ElaineA · Nov 13, 2019

I'm keeping an eye on twitter, but not watching or listening because my blood pressure gets so spiked I feel like I'm going to pass out.

I'm sure I'm getting a rather one-sided impression, even though I'm searching by "[name] + latest tweets" in hopes of getting a broader set of reactions. (It does feel like liberal twitter is doing more live-tweeting than conservative twitter.) That makes me doubly fascinated by your report, Introversion. The majority of what I'm seeing is that Taylor is a very good witness, and I wonder if it's because they can see facial expressions and body language that go along with what you're describing as stumbling and casting about. It really demonstrates how the way information is consumed can be a powerful influence on takeaway conclusions.

Introversion · Nov 13, 2019

Disclaimer: I'm unabashedly a liberal, never have tried to hide that.

To be clear, I've heard nothing that makes me doubt the truthfulness of the testimony that Bill Taylor is giving or has given. But I can imagine how his testimony will be chopped into visual sound-bites, and I can see how it might look like he's nervous or evasive or both.

Also, I believe that Adam Schiff and the other Democrats questioning these two, especially in followups, are doing a decent job. But they are being far less emotional (of which I approve), and I also know how the bombastic approach taken by GOP members like Jim Jordan will play in sound-bites on conservative media.

Introversion · Nov 13, 2019

Republicans are pounding heavily on the idea that both of these men are relying in large part on what others have told them, i.e., hearsay. And, that hearsay wouldn't be admitted in a court of law (with hurried acknowledgement that this isn't a trial).

Jim Jordan is being particularly aggressive in trying to reframe the entire issue of whether this is an impeachable offense by Trump, by harping on the fact that the military aid was released, and that the Ukranian president never held a press conference about the Bidens. I.e., therefore, "no quid pro quo". This is clearly a nonsense defense in a court; attempting unsuccessfully to commit a crime is still criminal behavior. But I know that this "defense" is already being trumpeted loudly in conservative media (I see it echoed in my social media channels all the time now), so I suspect it will play as well there as expected. Remains to be seen how well this plays out in the court of public opinion generally. Hopefully not well, but my trust in my fellow voters to discern the difference between truth and bullshit is quite low now.

Introversion · Nov 13, 2019

Sounds like the Republicans believe Obama is on trial here? At least they've yet (that I've heard) tried to put Hillary on trial too. Small favors, I guess.

Once more, Republicans attempting to make the narrative one that the Ukrainian president did nothing to get the promised military aid, because he was never asked to do anything.

Kjbartolotta · Nov 13, 2019

ElaineA said:
I'm keeping an eye on twitter, but not watching or listening because my blood pressure gets so spiked I feel like I'm going to pass out.

I'm just gonna read this thread and take Intro & other AWers word for it; I already have a headache today and just don't have the energy to get sucked into the Twitterati vortex.

Introversion · Nov 13, 2019

My sense is that the Republicans are firmly following a track well-blazed by conservative conspiracy theorists. I've just heard one congressman say that this is "year four of the impeachment of Donald Trump" and "the coup has started".

I mean, I get that this is grandstanding for conservative media, but it's startling to hear one of our two major political parties treat this serious constitutional remedy as a circus, and they're bringing the monkeys.

Kaiser-Kun · Nov 13, 2019

One of GOP's strategies today was claim Schiff wanted to see Trump's nudes... I think it gives us a good idea what to expect from this.

Roxxsmom · Nov 13, 2019

I think anything they say, no matter how ludicrous, will convince the GOP base. Anything Trump does (by definition) is right in their eyes. It doesn't matter if some of them are saying he never did the things he's accused of doing and some are candidly admitting to it but saying it's not wrong or unusual at all, and the rest are saying what he did was wrong but (somehow) not a high crime. Nor does it matter than some keep changing their position, sometimes even within the same interview or conversation.

I think it's pretty clear the Senate will never vote to convict him, no matter what he's accused of or what evidence is presented. A child's body with tiny Trumpty fingerprints on its throat could tumble out of his closet, and they'd insist he did it in self defense.

It's all about how this plays out with likely voters for 2020.

The people who need to be convinced are in the middle. They're hard to predict. I frankly have no idea how an undecided voter thinks in this day and age, when the issues seem so very clear cut and polarizing, so I can't guess how this might affect their voting patterns. Some are so deeply cynical about politics, maybe, that they buy the line that everyone else does the same things, so the decision to go after Trump for this shit is all about politics. Hopefully there are others to offset this.

Introversion · Nov 13, 2019

O.M.G. My head has just exploded. Jim Jordan (R) says that what Trump was doing with freezing the military aid package to Ukraine was "checking out" whether the Ukranian president was "legit or corrupt". And that after "55 days, guess what, he checked out" and "he was the real deal".

And, all of them are hammering on the fact that the whistleblower will not be brought to the hearings and made to testify.

I have no idea whether this argument will resonate with enough voters, but I fear that it might.

cbenoi1 · Nov 13, 2019

Roxxsmom said:
Anything Trump does (by definition) is right in their eyes.

As President, Trumps has access to everything and anything he wants from his administration.

He knows what's going on in Area 51.
He knows who killed JFK.
He knows what China is up to in Taiwan.
He knows Ukraine did the hacking, not Russia.
He knows the Bidens are culprits.

So when Trump says something - even something patently false and stupid - he must know something nobody else in the country knows. By definition.

-cb

Introversion · Nov 13, 2019

The GOP congressmen keep entering stuff like newspaper op-eds into the record regarding what Obama did or did not do w/r/t Ukraine. This seems like a dumb tactic to me. It adds nothing to a narrative that Trump did or did not commit impeachable offenses. Waste of time. Schiff is doing a good job of moving these along, approving their submission into the record but cutting off the obvious desire to summarize the material to the hearing.

Prozyan · Nov 13, 2019

I watched the entire thing. For the first public testimony, I think it was a rather large fail for the impeachment proceedings. As Maeze likes to point out, once again the Democrats were terrible with messaging.

Introversion · Nov 13, 2019

The two witnesses have been released. I thought Schiff's closing statement was pretty good, but I think overall the Democrats' performance was uneven. On the other hand, the Republicans clearly have no real defense of Trump's actions. But, will voters see it that way? My guess is, this day's proceeding will not move anyone from whatever opinions they had going into it.

ElaineA · Nov 13, 2019

Roxxsmom said:
It's all about how this plays out with likely voters for 2020.

The people who need to be convinced are in the middle. They're hard to predict. I frankly have no idea how an undecided voter thinks in this day and age, when the issues seem so very clear cut and polarizing, so I can't guess how this might affect their voting patterns. Some are so deeply cynical about politics, maybe, that they buy the line that everyone else does the same things, so the decision to go after Trump for this shit is all about politics. Hopefully there are others to offset this.

I fear this presumes there will be fair and free elections, and the moves to undermine that are already well under way.

MaeZe · Nov 13, 2019

Prozyan said:
I watched the entire thing. For the first public testimony, I think it was a rather large fail for the impeachment proceedings. As Maeze likes to point out, once again the Democrats were terrible with messaging.

Being the political junkie I am, I watched the whole thing. I don't agree at all that the Democrats were bad at messaging, Schiff was in excellent form.

But having wasted all morning when I have work to do, I'll have to comment more later.

BenPanced · Nov 13, 2019

The Republican reaction to finally getting the public hearings be like:

DEMOCRATS: "Why are you crying? You wanted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, so I made you one."

REPUBLICANS: "IT'S UPSIDE DOWN! YOU GAVE ME A JELLY AND PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICH!"

Prozyan · Nov 13, 2019

We'll have to agree to disagree on Schiff. I think he might possibly be the worst person to be heading up the inquiry.

Brightdreamer · Nov 13, 2019

BenPanced said:
The Republican reaction to finally getting the public hearings be like:

DEMOCRATS: "Why are you crying? You wanted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, so I made you one."

REPUBLICANS: "IT'S UPSIDE DOWN! YOU GAVE ME A JELLY AND PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICH!"

"And the peanut butter and jelly are touching... and the crust is still on!"

Much as I want to believe that public impeachment hearings will change things somehow, IMHO this kind of theatrics not only plays well with the base, but encourages anyone in the middle to just tune the whole thing out as a political circus, which normalizes and encourages more bad behavior and over-the-top antics.

MaeZe · Nov 13, 2019

BenPanced said:
The Republican reaction to finally getting the public hearings be like:

DEMOCRATS: "Why are you crying? You wanted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, so I made you one."

REPUBLICANS: "IT'S UPSIDE DOWN! YOU GAVE ME A JELLY AND PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICH!"

Introversion · Nov 14, 2019

One of decreasing number of reasons for me to remain on Facebook is to read Heather Cox Richardson’s political blogging. Here’s her take on yesterday’s impeachment proceedings. Worth a read, IMO.

https://www.facebook.com/heathercoxrichardson/posts/2060048477472541

kikazaru · Nov 14, 2019

Introversion said:
One of decreasing number of reasons for me to remain on Facebook is to read Heather Cox Richardson’s political blogging. Heer’s her take on yesterday’s impeachment proceedings. Worth a read, IMO.

https://www.facebook.com/heathercoxrichardson/posts/2060048477472541

Excellent summary. Thanks for the link Introversion.

cbenoi1 · Nov 15, 2019

Only the best... (spoiler: and a $1M donation)

Second U.S. official heard Trump’s call with Sondland, says AP source
https://www.centralmaine.com/2019/1...ard-trumps-call-with-sondland-says-ap-source/

“Obviously, making a phone call from Kiev to the president of the United States means that not just the Russian intelligence services will be on the call, but a whole lot of other people, too,” McFaul said. “If it was that important, he (Sondland) could have easily gotten up from the restaurant, gone to the embassy and made a secure call through the White House operations center. A lower-level official would probably be reprimanded for this kind of breach.”

-cb

Diana Hignutt · Nov 15, 2019

Trump commits witness intimidation in real time on twitter during witness testimony:

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/11/wi...mp-moments-after-he-launches-twitter-attacks/

Introversion · Nov 15, 2019

Haven't been able to listen to much of today's questioning of former ambassador Yovanovitch. The portions I have heard seem similar in tone to the previous day of questioning. Democrats are getting the strong background of Yovanovitch on record, and her knowledge of the events in question. Republicans are doing their best to emphasize the idea that Trump did nothing wrong in firing her, so this is a big nothing burger.

The president's real-time smearing of the former ambassador is despicable, and quite expected. It's the way he runs, and no one at this time is surprised.

U.S. public impeachment hearings

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