What is the acceptable word count for a series?

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SnugglePuggle

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I'm a paranormal romance writer currently working on a four book series with a bonus book at the end (it's technically a 5th book but doesn't follow the plot of the first four- just wraps everything up after the events of the last book). I've been searching around on AgentQuery just to see what types of books agents are taking lately, just to research a little bit. I am nowhere near ready to send in my first book for representation yet, even though I have the ending done already. I found an agent that takes paranormal romance, and I saw she did a Q & A here on AW.

As I read through her responses (I'm not finished yet), it got me thinking when she said an acceptable fantasy book should be at 100k words, 120k maximum. My first book is at 70k, and my second at 54. Although I go back every few days and reread, adding in here and there, I don't think I have enough material to add another 30k for the first and 50k for the second.

But is that the rate I should be going for, though? Would she and other agents turn me down because of my shorter word count?
 

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40k is the minimum, then it depends on the publisher :Thumbs:
 

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PNR isn't, AFAIK, expected to have the same word count as fantasy/epic fantasy. 70K is a little short, but probably workable. You might also consider combining your first and second books.

Your bigger issue might be the series. Your first book should be able to stand alone, but it's fine to pitch it as having series potential.
 

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It also depends on the age group for your stories. YA and MG can get away with smaller word counts.
 

SnugglePuggle

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PNR isn't, AFAIK, expected to have the same word count as fantasy/epic fantasy. 70K is a little short, but probably workable. You might also consider combining your first and second books.

Your bigger issue might be the series. Your first book should be able to stand alone, but it's fine to pitch it as having series potential.

Ah so my genre is a bit different than what she was talking about. Alright.

My first book can't be a stand alone novel because of the plot I have written up for it. The plot continues throughout each book until the big ending at the 4th, so unless I want a 10,000 (exaggeration) word solo novel, I'm not fitting all of my material into one or even two, because the first book ends with a rather surprising ending, so it's best I start a second one after.

I'll keep working on them, see if I can bring the count up a bit. Thanks everyone!
 

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An agent or publisher may say 100K, but it's intended to rein in writers with diarrhea of the word processor.

70K is just fine for PNR, so the 2nd book is the one that needs fattening. I had that problem with my 1st book and cured it by adding a supporting character. Maybe your 2nd can get a boost like that, with the character popping up in succeeding stories. Just make sure they are absolutely necessary to the plot. Pasted in characters stop the action cold.

Before shopping for an agent, please do consider getting feedback in the Share Your Work forum here and certainly some beta readers. People here are happy to swap books with others.

Had I done that back in the day, it would not have taken me so long to make that first sale. I thought that the hard effort I'd put into it meant it was well written. Um...nope. I had rewrites ahead, which included cutting the first five pages and getting rid of a pasted in character who stopped the action cold. :)
 

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Ah so my genre is a bit different than what she was talking about. Alright.

PNR is a subgenre of romance (to the extent that any of these definitions are crisp), so you can absolutely get away with <100K.

My first book can't be a stand alone novel because of the plot I have written up for it.

Those who write PNR, please contradict me if I'm wrong, but in general, if you're looking to trade publish, this is going to be a hard sell. Not to say it's impossible! But it's a pretty big impediment.
 

SnugglePuggle

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PNR is a subgenre of romance (to the extent that any of these definitions are crisp), so you can absolutely get away with <100K.

Gotcha. I'll keep adding in when I think of things I can while I revise.

Those who write PNR, please contradict me if I'm wrong, but in general, if you're looking to trade publish, this is going to be a hard sell. Not to say it's impossible! But it's a pretty big impediment.


I mean, I know it's not going to be easy, but there are lots of PNR series out there. The most famous comes to mind is "Twilight" by Stephanie Meyer. "House of Night" by P.C. and Kristin Cast, that one vampire series that got a movie but I can't remember the name, "The Vampire Dairies" and "Night World" by L.J. Smith.

There are a lot out there, it's just the problem at being good enough to sell. I think the harder problem for me is selling that my vampire story is different than the others in order to get representation and then a publishing contract.
 

SnugglePuggle

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An agent or publisher may say 100K, but it's intended to rein in writers with diarrhea of the word processor.

70K is just fine for PNR, so the 2nd book is the one that needs fattening. I had that problem with my 1st book and cured it by adding a supporting character. Maybe your 2nd can get a boost like that, with the character popping up in succeeding stories. Just make sure they are absolutely necessary to the plot. Pasted in characters stop the action cold.

Before shopping for an agent, please do consider getting feedback in the Share Your Work forum here and certainly some beta readers. People here are happy to swap books with others.

Had I done that back in the day, it would not have taken me so long to make that first sale. I thought that the hard effort I'd put into it meant it was well written. Um...nope. I had rewrites ahead, which included cutting the first five pages and getting rid of a pasted in character who stopped the action cold. :)

Thanks for the help! I thought my second book was a bit short. And I even added a second supporting character-an evil one at that- but maybe I didn't add in enough with him. I'll go back and reread, see what I can do about that.

I'm no where near ready for an agent, I was just looking around researching a bit, but I will definitely post my work once I reach the required 50 posts on here. Thanks for the suggestion!
 

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I mean, I know it's not going to be easy, but there are lots of PNR series out there.

I'm not saying having a series is the problem. I'm saying a first series book that isn't a standalone is the problem. Publishers are businesses, and they're risk-averse, more and more so these days. No matter how much they might like a first book, if it doesn't sell, they're not going to want a second. Agents know this, and are similarly going to be reluctant to take on a book that needs a sequel. This is just a business reality.

And no, nothing is impossible. But a first-novel non-standalone series book is going to make your odds a lot longer. If it's what you need to write, absolutely be true to that, but be aware of the business consequences.
 

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My first book can't be a stand alone novel because of the plot I have written up for it.

I would suggest what you probably want is to do a "Star Wars" type ending. Think of "A New Hope." They blew up the Death Star. The main plot lines were resolved. However the Empire was still out there. Darth Vader got away. So there was clearly room for another movie if the first was a hit. Most PNR I read is in series, but I agree with the others that you probably want to present your book as a "standalone with series potential."
 

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I'm not saying having a series is the problem. I'm saying a first series book that isn't a standalone is the problem. Publishers are businesses, and they're risk-averse, more and more so these days. No matter how much they might like a first book, if it doesn't sell, they're not going to want a second. Agents know this, and are similarly going to be reluctant to take on a book that needs a sequel. This is just a business reality.

And no, nothing is impossible. But a first-novel non-standalone series book is going to make your odds a lot longer. If it's what you need to write, absolutely be true to that, but be aware of the business consequences.

So, if I'm understanding correctly, is that you're saying the first book needs to be written well enough so that it can sell good enough? I mean I know my first book is pretty hefty with the singular plot it has in it that would be very enticing for people to read, but there is an overall bigger plot that steadily increases throughout each book until the 4th. I guess to help you understand I would need to describe it a bit, right?

Without spoiling too much- the first book is of a woman who was turned as a young high school student. She's a bit of the loner type, and because of limited interaction, she never knew much about the supernatural world she was apart of until Axton, the ML, comes into her life. As she learns more about what she is- a vampire- as well as witches and werewolves, she soon learns to know Axton better and enters a relationship. Meanwhile, they go through multiple trials of werewolf fights and "other worldly" occurences- freak accidents of nature that soon start to affect her life dangerously, but for an unknown reason until the end of the book,- ending omitted for spoiler purposes.

Meanwhile, through out all of that, the big three- the Alphas of each race, are slowly introduced, but the Vampire Alpha is missing- and has the series goes on, the race to find that Alpha continues, bringing in more danger and uncertainty to Calleigh, Axton and her friends. That plot keeps rising until the 4th book where a major surprise happens.

So, I hope that helps bring a bit of light as to why my books are a series. I couldn't imagine putting all of that into one or two with all the material I have in my brain right now, lol.
 

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I would suggest what you probably want is to do a "Star Wars" type ending. Think of "A New Hope." They blew up the Death Star. The main plot lines were resolved. However the Empire was still out there. Darth Vader got away. So there was clearly room for another movie if the first was a hit. Most PNR I read is in series, but I agree with the others that you probably want to present your book as a "standalone with series potential."

Ah I'm understanding it better now. Although I guess I could label my first as a standalone...I'm not sure about my ending so to speak. It has a major kaboom followed by a epilogue that brings a short idea of the second book into play.
 

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So, if I'm understanding correctly, is that you're saying the first book needs to be written well enough so that it can sell good enough?

No, that's not really it. :)

When a publisher buys a book, they have an idea of how they're going to market it, and what they think it will sell. The reality of the book market, though, is that there are only so many knobs they can turn. They can make the gamble that the book will sell well, but they can't dictate to readers, and they can't control for external issues. (My second book came out in 2016 on US election day. Nothing that came out that November/December did terribly well.)

If the book isn't "good enough," the publisher isn't going to buy it at all. Once they buy it, though, you're in unscientific territory. They can't make your good-enough book a bestseller, no matter how much they want to.

So the series issue becomes, very simply, one of financial risk. They can hope and believe your series will sell brilliantly, but they've been doing this long enough to know that readers are subjective, the world keeps doing its thing, and sometimes random bad luck just happens. You sometimes find publishers willing to take two or even three books, but I've never heard of a debut author selling five (which isn't to say such deals don't happen, but if they do they're rare). And even this is subject to trends.

An agent is going to know all of this, including where the current trends are series-wise. A book that can't be read as a single story is going to hamstring an agent somewhat, and that's a limitation they have to take into account when they decide whether or not to offer you representation.

KBooks' Star Wars analogy is a good one. The original film doesn't need the other films to make it satisfying. The story was structured so sequels could make sense, but they weren't necessary.
 

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No, that's not really it. :)

When a publisher buys a book, they have an idea of how they're going to market it, and what they think it will sell. The reality of the book market, though, is that there are only so many knobs they can turn. They can make the gamble that the book will sell well, but they can't dictate to readers, and they can't control for external issues. (My second book came out in 2016 on US election day. Nothing that came out that November/December did terribly well.)

If the book isn't "good enough," the publisher isn't going to buy it at all. Once they buy it, though, you're in unscientific territory. They can't make your good-enough book a bestseller, no matter how much they want to.

So the series issue becomes, very simply, one of financial risk. They can hope and believe your series will sell brilliantly, but they've been doing this long enough to know that readers are subjective, the world keeps doing its thing, and sometimes random bad luck just happens. You sometimes find publishers willing to take two or even three books, but I've never heard of a debut author selling five (which isn't to say such deals don't happen, but if they do they're rare). And even this is subject to trends.

An agent is going to know all of this, including where the current trends are series-wise. A book that can't be read as a single story is going to hamstring an agent somewhat, and that's a limitation they have to take into account when they decide whether or not to offer you representation.

KBooks' Star Wars analogy is a good one. The original film doesn't need the other films to make it satisfying. The story was structured so sequels could make sense, but they weren't necessary.

I'm understanding it better now. Although I'm sure my first is satisfying enough with the material I have as a standalone, but I have small bits of my future plots in it already, and it would take away from the story if I took them out to make it a full stand alone novel. I get that there's a risk, but with the way I write, I feel it's better to keep my series as it is. I've read of people in the Query examples who put in that their book was of a series, and people actually recommended to say that so that makes me believe there are agents out there willing to take a planned series on.

I won't know how my book does when it publishes one day, it's out of my control. The only thing I can do now is to continue to improve it to give it the best chance I can at succeeding.
 

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I'm understanding it better now. Although I'm sure my first is satisfying enough with the material I have as a standalone, but I have small bits of my future plots in it already, and it would take away from the story if I took them out to make it a full stand alone novel.

I don't think you need to take anything out! I always seed my books with bits of the next story. It can add to the texture for readers to feel like the world keeps going after they close the book.

I've read of people in the Query examples who put in that their book was of a series, and people actually recommended to say that so that makes me believe there are agents out there willing to take a planned series on.

"Series potential" is a different thing than "I've written five books and they must all get published or they won't make sense." "Series potential" can be a nice sweetener in case the book takes off, but that doesn't remove the need for the first book to work on its own.
 

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I don't think you need to take anything out! I always seed my books with bits of the next story. It can add to the texture for readers to feel like the world keeps going after they close the book.



"Series potential" is a different thing than "I've written five books and they must all get published or they won't make sense." "Series potential" can be a nice sweetener in case the book takes off, but that doesn't remove the need for the first book to work on its own.

Ohhhh I see. That makes sense now. So I don't need to strip those parts and just keep it as it is, but say there's room for more. Gotcha. Alright, I think that can work now. I'll keep this in mind for when I work on my query later in the future. Thank you!
 

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Don't strip those parts out. That's not what lizmonster is saying. But it's going to be a hard sell to convince a publisher to take a chance on a new author if your first book can't stand alone. You want to give your book the best chance of selling that you can. "Series potential" is awesome because if book 1 sells well, then they can go forward with book 2. If book one doesn't sell well, then you go on and write something different.

Think of how "The Hunger Games" ended for another example. Peeta and Katniss escape the arena, they arrive back in Twelve, and most of the main plot threads are closed. There are a few left dangling, like Katniss's feelings for Peeta. Plus, that pesky Capitol is still out there! So 98% of what Suzanne Collins opened, she closed. She told a satisfying story. She just left the potential for there to be more if the first book turned out to be a bestseller.
 

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I'm a romance writer and reader (though I read historical and contemporary, not paranormal). 80-90k is a pretty good length for a romance if you're aiming for a print deal.

It seems like you're following the same couple through the entire series? Often "series" in romance are standalone books about different couples, though following the same couple over multiple books is not unheard of in contemporary! Can't think of any historical romance examples. Not sure how common this might be in paranormal, but I'm a touch worried that:

1) A series that follows the same couple all the way through might be a harder sell for an unknown writer vs a series with a different couple in each book.
2) Are you 100% sure your series is paranormal romance vs, say, fantasy with romantic elements?

I do wonder if you might get better romance-specific feedback if this was in the romance forum instead?
 

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I'm a romance writer and reader (though I read historical and contemporary, not paranormal). 80-90k is a pretty good length for a romance if you're aiming for a print deal.

It seems like you're following the same couple through the entire series? Often "series" in romance are standalone books about different couples, though following the same couple over multiple books is not unheard of in contemporary! Can't think of any historical romance examples. Not sure how common this might be in paranormal, but I'm a touch worried that:

1) A series that follows the same couple all the way through might be a harder sell for an unknown writer vs a series with a different couple in each book.
2) Are you 100% sure your series is paranormal romance vs, say, fantasy with romantic elements?

I do wonder if you might get better romance-specific feedback if this was in the romance forum instead?

Ah no. There are tons of series out there that follow the same couple, such as the ones I listed above, besides "House of Night," even though that one follows the same female main lead, but her romance partner changes through out the series. "Night World" does follow different couples now that I remember. And that one I said above which I couldn't remember earlier, which I do now- "Vampire Academy" follows the same ones, as well as "The Vampire Diaries", and we all know about the Twilight Saga of course. "The Mortal Instruments" follows Claire and Jace throughout the whole eight or nine books I believe.

It's a bit surprising that I'm reading on here that people say the same couple is unheard of, or that series are uncommon and standalones are more the thing. I've read so much of the opposite that it's just a bit surprising to me.

This is a contemporary series as well. Also, those authors were unknown before as well, so it certainly can be done.

I'm pretty confident this is a paranormal romance, as the romance is heavier than the fantasy aspects, even though those grow more and more in each book.

I didn't think to post in the romance forum but maybe I should since PNR is a subgenre of romance and not fantasy. Will do next time if I have other questions!
 

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The series you cite all seem to be young adult. Is your series young adult? That will change expectations + word counts.

I was assuming adult paranormal romance.
 

SnugglePuggle

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The series you cite all seem to be young adult. Is your series young adult? That will change expectations + word counts.

I was assuming adult paranormal romance.

Ah, I didn't think about YA. Although mine would probably fit more along the lines of adult, since there is violence, and steamy kissing scenes. Once the marriage comes along, then I'll get more descriptive, so that won't do for YA and younger audiences.

I'm slowly working on the first two to add more. I've already gotten up to 71k on the first, and 56k on the second. It's a bit slow, but I'm trying to add in more without disrupting the plot too much already.
 

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Oops, I accidentally posted this before on another thread I had started. Anyway, I got my second to 69.6k! Much better in terms of length.
 

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It depends entirely on the genre and age that you're writing for. I never write a book less than 80k. Never. That is not the expectation for adult sci-fi novels. It also depends on where you plan on publishing. If you're going to go self-pub on Amazon, you have a bit more leeway, but short books in that genre don't really sell as long as full-length ones do. Most publishers aren't going to be interested in shorter books. They know what the best ROI is, and it isn't short. It also isn't overly-long. 80-100k is the sweet spot.
 

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Ah, I didn't think about YA. Although mine would probably fit more along the lines of adult, since there is violence, and steamy kissing scenes. Once the marriage comes along, then I'll get more descriptive, so that won't do for YA and younger audiences.

YA absolutely has violence and steamy kissing (and sometimes on-page sex). If you're trying to determine if your novel is young adult vs. adult, look at the main character's journey and their age. Are they under 18? Is the personal development arc focused on coming of age, finding their footing in the world on their own for the first time? If so, you're more aligned with YA.

There's already been a lot of other good advice on this thread, but I'll add that focusing on getting the first book as polished as possible before querying agents is smart. The agents are unlikely to read the subsequent books until further down the line. They're moot unless book 1 sells. That is, should you decide to go with a traditional publishing path.
 
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