Using specific vs general English terms in a secondary world?

noranne · Nov 8, 2019

I'm having a dilemma with my current WIP. The nation that it's set in is based primarily on ancient Greece, but it's secondary world--this is definitely NOT Greece! (There's no Mediterranean, for one thing!) I'm running into some issues about word choice, mostly in regards to clothing.

There exist specific English words for the type of clothing that the characters are wearing--things like chiton, peplos, himation, etc. However most people probably aren't familiar with these, and they aren't common words used in English for clothing. So they almost feel too specific, like it will make it seem too much like the setting is Greece. So instead I've been using more generic terms like robe, cloak, etc. I think this would be more like thinking this has been "translated" into something that would be understood by the target audience.

But of course, the more specific terms are, well, more specific, and they add a nice flavor and a better description. Now I'm second-guessing my choice and wondering if I should swap to the other terms.

My original thought process was along the lines of "call a squirrel a squirrel" argument if you are familiar with that, but now I'm thinking maybe that isn't applicable since there is an actual English word already for the things I need.

Anyone have any experience/thoughts with this?

Brightdreamer · Nov 8, 2019

Every writer needs to draw their own "smeerp/rabbit" line on these things, IMHO.

There are, of course, going to be readers who disagree with wherever that line is drawn - purists who would tear apart a work inspired by, say, Dark Ages Europe that uses terms that only appeared in (gasp!) the Late Middle Ages - but if you avoid some too-obvious modernisms and keep your line fairly consistent, you'll be good. (The "translation convention" covers a lot.)

For my part, I didn't find any of the examples you used particularly suspension-of-disbelief breaking... but in other works, I've been subtly irritated by things like a secondary dystopian world that talked about "polo shirts" when there was no indication of the sport (or horses, or any upper class that would have given rise to polo or a polo-like sport - this was a real heckhole of a world), and a fantasy world that used "shanghaied" and "welshed" when there was no Shanghai or Wales.

If your world is inspired by Greece, and those terms you use describe Greek-like things (and if you use some context to help get the gist across to readers), then use them.

Kjbartolotta · Nov 8, 2019

I dunno, I kind of think of chitons and pelops as their own specific thing, sure they're associated with Greek culture but I think they're more precise than dresses and robes. It's easy to go down the rabbit hole of trying to remove cultural association, but I think terms like these can lend their own authenticity to the setting. Like BD said, translation convention covers a lot.

Sounds like a fun setting, I always enjoy fantasy based on the Ancient World.

talktidy · Nov 9, 2019

I am having the same problem with my space opera. I have a pov from a member of an alien race and then had a problem with how to describe distances smaller than light years. In the end i stuck with familiar terms like kilometres and flagged it as something to be changed in the revision stage after a little more world building. Unless you already have a finished draft, I would suggest you stick with your original terms - after all maybe some of that was what inspired you - and just get that story done. Story trumps everything.

Personally, I am not so keen on antiquated words for common everyday objects, as it brings me to a grinding halt in the narrative, while I wonder how that word should be pronounced. If you do retain them, then I think you should have a good reason for doing so reflected in the narrative and maybe those terms kept for something less everyday.

buz · Nov 10, 2019

noranne said:
I'm having a dilemma with my current WIP. The nation that it's set in is based primarily on ancient Greece, but it's secondary world--this is definitely NOT Greece! (There's no Mediterranean, for one thing!) I'm running into some issues about word choice, mostly in regards to clothing.

There exist specific English words for the type of clothing that the characters are wearing--things like chiton, peplos, himation, etc. However most people probably aren't familiar with these, and they aren't common words used in English for clothing. So they almost feel too specific, like it will make it seem too much like the setting is Greece. So instead I've been using more generic terms like robe, cloak, etc. I think this would be more like thinking this has been "translated" into something that would be understood by the target audience.

But of course, the more specific terms are, well, more specific, and they add a nice flavor and a better description. Now I'm second-guessing my choice and wondering if I should swap to the other terms.

My original thought process was along the lines of "call a squirrel a squirrel" argument if you are familiar with that, but now I'm thinking maybe that isn't applicable since there is an actual English word already for the things I need.

Anyone have any experience/thoughts with this?

For me, it depends how strongly you want the reader to associate your world with ancient Greece - if you use words that are specific to only a particular culture/time/place, then it will call up that time/place/culture for me in a glaring signposty sort of way, in the same way that referring to someone as a samurai is quite different to calling them a warrior or something. If you want me to think of "ancient Greece but a bit different" then you'd be fine using those specific words; if you want me to think "entirely different situation" then I think some broader terms would be more appropriate. (Also, I mean, this isn't terrifically helpful on its own, but as a data point, I generally do not know very specific terms for garments, so these words would be almost meaningless to me regardless - I don't know how common I am in that respect tho

But I would still recognized them as "Greek stuff" or at least "stuff that is supposed to sound Greek" because, well, they're Greek words.)

So, I think - depends how close a connection you want it

And, well, ultimately, up to you, as they are your words.

Cobalt Jade · Nov 10, 2019

I'd be inclined to use robe, tunic, etc. but then add embellishing words -- like pleated, knee-length, folded, draped, etc. At least in the beginning, so reader get the gist. "Softly draped gown" with "fold over the shoulder" and "sandels" says Greek to me.

noranne · Nov 10, 2019

Thanks so much for the feedback everyone! I think I'll stick with my current strategy of using more general terms but trying to describe them a bit to help paint the picture.

Paul Lamb · Nov 11, 2019

I agree with Cobalt Jade on this. Go with the generic term and then embellish it with apt description. And if there is something that needs to come up frequently and/or has significance in your plot, you might create your own term for it, having defined it early on.

I understand Tokien had a moment in one of the LotR novels where Gandalf said adieu but then took it out, realizing that Gandalf would not/could not be speaking French in this universe.

litdawg · Nov 11, 2019

Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer and the rest of the urth/new sun series are absolutely redolent with specific and archaic terms that I eventually stopped looking up and just rolled with it. The obscure language gave such texture.

Kjbartolotta · Nov 11, 2019

litdawg said:
Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer and the rest of the urth/new sun series are absolutely redolent with specific and archaic terms that I eventually stopped looking up and just rolled with it. The obscure language gave such texture.

I bought Lexicon Urthus just so I could know what they all mean. Not that it's necessary.

Wolfe wrote BOTNS in a sort of elevated, pseudo-archaic tone that both fits the personality of the narrator (well-educated but insulated from reality with tendency towards local bias and kind of just a weird dude) and as a nod to Clark Ashton Smith and his porphyritic loquaciousness. Works better in smaller doses, but still one of my favorite narrative tricks (and I'm kind of a huge fan of the series all around, in case that wasn't clear).

Using specific vs general English terms in a secondary world?

noranne

the possibilities are endless

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog

talktidy

buz

edits all posts at least four times

Cobalt Jade

noranne

the possibilities are endless

Paul Lamb

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog