British nobility: grandson of a baron

rosehips · Oct 28, 2019

Hi guys. I just spent the last fifteen minutes trying to make sense of this using Google and I think I may have a panic attack (though it could be I drank too much coffee).

My male MC is the grandson of a baron. The grandfather is still alive. I've been able to find that the baron would be Lord something, but here I'm already unsure. If the baron's name is Fred Flintstone, and his barony (?) is Bedrock, is the baron Lord Flintstone or Lord Bedrock?

And how about my mc? If his name is Bob Flintstone, what is his title (if any)? How is he called? Is he also a baron? Is he Lord Bob?
ETA: Fred's son, Bob's father, is deceased.

And... peerage. I am really bewildered. When is a man a peer and when isn't he?

Bob has a daughter. Does she get any special titles or anything? Let's call her Pebbles Flintstone.

Thanks so much in advance!

Helix · Oct 28, 2019

Wikipedia is actually quite handy on this topic. Here's the entry for Brits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron#Style_of_address

rosehips · Oct 28, 2019

Thank you, that did clarify the bit about the Right Honorable versus the Honorable. But then this passage confused me:

Courtesy barons are styled Lord [Barony], and their wives Lady [Barony]; the article "The" is always absent. If the courtesy baron is not a Privy Counsellor, the style The Right Honourable will also be absent.

Wiki says a "courtesy" title is the title of the child of the baron? So Bob (whose father is deceased) would then be Lord Bedrock, as well as Fred? They would both be Lord Bedrock? And since neither Fred nor Bob is a Privy Counsellor, neither is the Right Honourable?

It is very common for the surnames of barons and baronesses to be identical to or included in the formal title of their barony.

I don't understand this sentence. Is this saying that it's common to call people Lord Bedrock?

However, when addressed as a peer, Lord, Lady or Baroness is followed by the name of their barony, not their personal name.

So, Lord Bedrock, not Lord Fred.

This is relevant when a baron or baroness's title is completely different from their personal surname (e.g. William Thomson, Lord Kelvin), or includes a territorial designation in addition to their surname (e.g. Martin Rees, Lord Rees of Ludlow). This also means that including a baron or baroness's forename before their title is incorrect and potentially misleading. For example, "Lady Margaret Thatcher" (as opposed to "Lady Thatcher") would imply that she were the daughter of an earl, marquess or duke rather than a baroness. Likewise, in the case of men, "Lord Digby Jones" (as opposed to "Lord Jones of Birmingham") would imply that he were the younger son of a marquess or duke rather than a baron.

I'm lost.

Thanks to any who can help me clarify. I won't need to understand this for anyone other than Fred, Bob, and possibly Pebbles, so if I can correctly sort them out, I should be good.

Helix · Oct 28, 2019

It is far too confusing for me!

I know that several AWers are very good on this and I'm sure they'll be along soon.

Marian Perera · Oct 28, 2019

I don't know if this link will help you at all, but I'm throwing it out :

Enter Title Here

rosehips · Oct 28, 2019

Marian Perera said:
I don't know if this link will help you at all, but I'm throwing it out :

Enter Title Here

OMG YES

Thank you!!!!

angeliz2k · Oct 28, 2019

Thank you, that did clarify the bit about the Right Honorable versus the Honorable. But then this passage confused me:
"Courtesy barons are styled Lord [Barony], and their wives Lady [Barony]; the article "The" is always absent. If the courtesy baron is not a Privy Counsellor, the style The Right Honourable will also be absent."

Wiki says a "courtesy" title is the title of the child of the baron? So Bob (whose father is deceased) would then be Lord Bedrock, as well as Fred? They would both be Lord Bedrock? And since neither Fred nor Bob is a Privy Counsellor, neither is the Right Honourable?

It took me a bit, but I believe I understand what this is saying. I think it is talking about an instance in which a barony is given as a courtesy title to a family member of a higher-up peer--it isn't talking about courtesy titles for family members of barons.

This helped quite a bit:

https://www.chinet.com/~laura/html/titles05.html

So, the son would be The Right Honourable [Bob's father] Flinstone. And since Bob's father is dead and Bob is grandson of the baron, I imagine he, too, would have the courtesy title of Right Honourable Bob Flinstone.

"It is very common for the surnames of barons and baronesses to be identical to or included in the formal title of their barony."

I don't understand this sentence. Is this saying that it's common to call people Lord Bedrock?

I think what it's saying is that it's common for Fred Flinstone to be given the title Baron Flinstone, rather than Baron Bedrock.

However, when addressed as a peer, Lord, Lady or Baroness is followed by the name of their barony, not their personal name.

So, Lord Bedrock, not Lord Fred.

Right. If he's Fred Flinstone, Baron Bedrock, he would be Lord Bedrock, NOT Lord Fred. If he's Fred Flinstone, Baron Flinstone, he would be Lord Flinstone (still not Lord Fred).

"This is relevant when a baron or baroness's title is completely different from their personal surname (e.g. William Thomson, Lord Kelvin), or includes a territorial designation in addition to their surname (e.g. Martin Rees, Lord Rees of Ludlow). This also means that including a baron or baroness's forename before their title is incorrect and potentially misleading. For example, "Lady Margaret Thatcher" (as opposed to "Lady Thatcher") would imply that she were the daughter of an earl, marquess or duke rather than a baroness. Likewise, in the case of men, "Lord Digby Jones" (as opposed to "Lord Jones of Birmingham") would imply that he were the younger son of a marquess or duke rather than a baron."

I'm lost.

Thanks to any who can help me clarify. I won't need to understand this for anyone other than Fred, Bob, and possibly Pebbles, so if I can correctly sort them out, I should be good.

I think this is a warning/reminder that if Fred Flinstone is Baron Flinstone, you need to be careful not to call him Lord Fred Flinstone, which would be incorrect for a baron. It would have to be Lord Flinstone. It's easier to remember to do that, I guess, if he's Baron Bedrock and should be called Lord Bedrock.

angeliz2k · Oct 28, 2019

rosehips said:
Hi guys. I just spent the last fifteen minutes trying to make sense of this using Google and I think I may have a panic attack (though it could be I drank too much coffee).

My male MC is the grandson of a baron. The grandfather is still alive. I've been able to find that the baron would be Lord something, but here I'm already unsure. If the baron's name is Fred Flintstone, and his barony (?) is Bedrock, is the baron Lord Flintstone or Lord Bedrock?

And how about my mc? If his name is Bob Flintstone, what is his title (if any)? How is he called? Is he also a baron? Is he Lord Bob?
ETA: Fred's son, Bob's father, is deceased.

And... peerage. I am really bewildered. When is a man a peer and when isn't he?

Bob has a daughter. Does she get any special titles or anything? Let's call her Pebbles Flintstone.

Thanks so much in advance!

Peer is baron and above. Knights ("Sir") and baronets are not peers. So Sir Paul McCartney is not a peer, only a knight.

Pebbles would be The Right Honourable Pebbles Flinstone, as the baron's granddaughter, though I'm not entirely clear on whether courtesy titles extend to grandchildren (I would think they do).

Calder · Nov 4, 2019

Probably all you'll ever need to know about the British Peerage: https://www.debretts.com/expertise/essential-guide-to-the-peerage/

benbenberi · Nov 5, 2019

If the baron is Fred Flintstone, Lord Bedrock, he is called Lord Bedrock. His eldest son is The Hon. [Name] Flintstone. His grandson is Mr. Bob Flintstone. When granddad dies and not before, Bob will become Bob Flintstone, Lord Bedrock. He will never be Lord Bob. When Bob becomes a baron his daughter will become The Hon. Pebbles Flintstone. Until then she's just plain Miss.

ETA: the OP specified that Fred's son, Bob's father, is dead. So Bob inherits directly from his grandfather. If Bob's dad was still alive, of course, he would become Lord Bedrock and Bob would become The Hon. Bob.

British nobility: grandson of a baron

rosehips

Mr. Boo is watching you.

Helix

socially distancing

rosehips

Mr. Boo is watching you.

Helix

socially distancing

Marian Perera

starting over

rosehips

Mr. Boo is watching you.

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

Calder

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW