gender question

indianroads · Oct 25, 2019

In a society 600 years in the future, where women out number men 4:1, would they still be called female or woman? If not, what might they call themselves?

Of course they're people. What I'm looking for is identity nomenclature that doesn't include the words male or man.

I'm currently using 'fem', but it feels a bit awkward... but maybe that's because I'm not used to it.

starrystorm · Oct 25, 2019

I think, if this is a futuristic earth as opposed to a different world, then female and woman would be fine, since those are terms humans have been using for decades. Another six-hundred years probably wouldn't do anything to harm that tradition.

Plus, I think it would just make sense for the reader.

Just my two cents.

indianroads · Oct 25, 2019

starrystorm said:
I think, if this is a futuristic earth as opposed to a different world, then female and woman would be fine, since those are terms humans have been using for decades. Another six-hundred years probably wouldn't do anything to harm that tradition.

Plus, I think it would just make sense for the reader.

Just my two cents.

My feeling is that you're right - but I wanted to open it up for discussion.

mccardey · Oct 25, 2019

indianroads said:
In a society 600 years in the future, where women out number men 4:1, would they still be called female or woman? If not, what might they call themselves?

Of course they're people. What I'm looking for is identity nomenclature that doesn't include the words male or man.

I'm currently using 'fem', but it feels a bit awkward... but maybe that's because I'm not used to it.

It's a good question, because it plays to what you want to say about your futuristic world - and how your characters see themselves and their society.

You probably already know this (and it might not be entirely correct, I haven't double-checked) but

The earliest usage of wifmon occurs by 893, and by 1225 we see wummon appear, indicating the shift in the first vowel sound from wi to wu. By 1400, the singular woman and plural women were established, and these became the usual spellings.May 24, 2011

which would suggest to me that you're well within your rights to change the words esp since the male/female ratio is so different in your world; there might be divisions in the title of Woman for their various ages and stages, or roles - all sorts of stuff.

I guess it's yours to play with

MaeZe · Oct 25, 2019

Here's an interesting list that might give you ideas or places to start.

And there's this feminists' version: womyn.

indianroads · Oct 25, 2019

Someone just suggested 'femme' and I like it! Familiar to most and easily understood by the rest.

I just looked this up, and the meaning was not what I expected. Probably best to avoid confusion and use 'female' and 'woman'.

Murky · Oct 25, 2019

Well,

Female and Male come from two completely differently words etymologically speaking.
Male comes from Old French "masle" which means masculine, while Female comes from Old French "femella" which means young woman.
So it is not really a "fe-male". They just ended up similar in the English language.

As for Woman.
Man does not mean "male" but "humanity" or "human being" (so no gender involved).
In Old English adults were called "werman" and "wifman" / "wifmon".
Both words evolved into our current Man and Woman.
(We can still see the wer/wif base in words like werewolf and wife.

But absolutely play around with phrases and terms. We are in the future, so those things will evolve, but also be careful as to not alienate or confuse the reader.
Be also careful that you do not draw attention away from the story and to your writing style and "clever words".

indianroads · Oct 25, 2019

Murky said:
Well,

Female and Male come from two completely differently words etymologically speaking.
Male comes from Old French "masle" which means masculine, while Female comes from Old French "femella" which means young woman.
So it is not really a "fe-male". They just ended up similar in the English language.

As for Woman.
Man does not mean "male" but "humanity" or "human being" (so no gender involved).
In Old English adults were called "werman" and "wifman" / "wifmon".
Both words evolved into our current Man and Woman.
(We can still see the wer/wif base in words like werewolf and wife.

But absolutely play around with phrases and terms. We are in the future, so those things will evolve, but also be careful as to not alienate or confuse the reader.
Be also careful that you do not draw attention away from the story and to your writing style and "clever words".

Good points. Thanks.
I'm probably over thinking this - maybe I'll just go with 'female' and 'woman'.

Elle. · Oct 25, 2019

indianroads said:
Someone just suggested 'femme' and I like it! Familiar to most and easily understood by the rest.

Very confusing if your book ever gets translated to French.

indianroads · Oct 25, 2019

Elle. said:
Very confusing if your book ever gets translated to French.

What does it mean in French?

Elle. · Oct 26, 2019

indianroads said:
What does it mean in French?

Well, in case google translate didn't help :tongue

: it means woman so what women have been called in French speaking countries for centuries. So not really a new denomination or name for gender.

JohnLine · Oct 26, 2019

They might put more emphasis on other categories like cis and trans. I could also see him/he being adopted by some women. This might get confusing though, and I wouldn't try it unless gender identity is a central theme in your book.

Chris P · Oct 26, 2019

starrystorm said:
I think, if this is a futuristic earth as opposed to a different world, then female and woman would be fine, since those are terms humans have been using for decades. Another six-hundred years probably wouldn't do anything to harm that tradition.

Plus, I think it would just make sense for the reader.

Just my two cents.

This is my sense as well; people will continue to use the words attached to the sex of the person, regardless of what societal changes happen with such a skewed sex ratio in the society. The power dynamics will change, but language will be slower to respond. As others have pointed out, the words might not have reflected power dynamics as much as might be supposed.

I have a lot of backstory questions regarding your story, which I'm sure you've considered. First, why has the sex ratio changed so much? Is it a recent event (all the men killed in a war, a Y-chromosome-specific disease, etc.) or something permanent, like conceptions somehow resulting in more females being born over the course of decades or centuries? If the first, then the sex ratio will return to 50/50 in a few generations (look to the sex ratio in the American south following the Civil War). If this is a permanent change, then I'm wondering if men would be marginalized as there would be fewer to play a role in business, civil society, families, etc., or if they would be revered as a rarity and their role in procreation of the species. Interesting topic!

MythMonger · Oct 26, 2019

I'll just throw some ideas out, hope something sticks.

The word man is "less than" because it only uses part of the word woman.
Woman is greater than man, both in number of letters and in society.
The W-O in woman stands for "without" (ie, without man)

Hope this helps.

AW Admin · Oct 26, 2019

Gender is being confused with biological sex; despite modern trends in some respects, they are not the same.

In languages other than English, gender includes concepts like age, kinship, social status, occupation and number.

Femme has been used in English to denote atypical gender presentation for roughly a century; I'd have to check the actual print date, but it was c. 1920 or so. It's a word borrowed into Old French from Latin (and from French to Middle English).

Scarcity of men or of women is a concept that is used fairly often in SF.

You might want to look at the way Anne Leckie treats gender in her Ancillary trilogy.

indianroads · Oct 26, 2019

Chris P said:
This is my sense as well; people will continue to use the words attached to the sex of the person, regardless of what societal changes happen with such a skewed sex ratio in the society. The power dynamics will change, but language will be slower to respond. As others have pointed out, the words might not have reflected power dynamics as much as might be supposed.

I have a lot of backstory questions regarding your story, which I'm sure you've considered. First, why has the sex ratio changed so much? Is it a recent event (all the men killed in a war, a Y-chromosome-specific disease, etc.) or something permanent, like conceptions somehow resulting in more females being born over the course of decades or centuries? If the first, then the sex ratio will return to 50/50 in a few generations (look to the sex ratio in the American south following the Civil War). If this is a permanent change, then I'm wondering if men would be marginalized as there would be fewer to play a role in business, civil society, families, etc., or if they would be revered as a rarity and their role in procreation of the species. Interesting topic!

The disparity came about because of the weakness in the Y chromosome that occurs in narrow populations.

The story started (series book #2) with a group of several thousand individuals that escaped an extinction event on earth. There was a lot of initial conflict among the survivors and the government and much of the structure of society to disintegrated.

This book (series #4) takes place 22 generations later. The individual ships have lost contact with each other. Street gangs run everything. As the disparity between male and female grew, men were valued (even cherished) at first, but as the gangs gained power they (men) were seen as possessions that could be used (rented out) for profit. This story is about liberation and equality, and the reunification of the ships.

Roxxsmom · Oct 26, 2019

SF writers make up new terms all the time. I have a memory of reading one some time ago where male and female had been reduced to "mel" and "fem." It doesn't take long to get into a book and internalize their terminology.

Language usage tends to simplify and follow the path of least resistance, and it can evolve to reflect new gender norms. Look at how quickly words light "firefighter," "chair," and "second base" replaced "fireman," "chairman," and "second baseman," and look at how quickly non gendered "their" is becoming a socially and grammatically acceptable term to use when gender is unspecified, or especially when a person doesn't identify as male or female.

The thing is not to hit your reader with too many new terms or to be inconsistent.

indianroads · Oct 26, 2019

Roxxsmom said:
SF writers make up new terms all the time. I have a memory of reading one some time ago where male and female had been reduced to "mel" and "fem." It doesn't take long to get into a book and internalize their terminology.

Language usage tends to simplify and follow the path of least resistance, and it can evolve to reflect new gender norms. Look at how quickly words light "firefighter," "chair," and "second base" replaced "fireman," "chairman," and "second baseman," and look at how quickly non gendered "their" is becoming a socially and grammatically acceptable term to use when gender is unspecified, or especially when a person doesn't identify as male or female.

The thing is not to hit your reader with too many new terms or to be inconsistent.

Great advice. Thanks.

neandermagnon · Oct 26, 2019

indianroads said:
The disparity came about because of the weakness in the Y chromosome that occurs in narrow populations.

The story started (series book #2) with a group of several thousand individuals that escaped an extinction event on earth. There was a lot of initial conflict among the survivors and the government and much of the structure of society to disintegrated.

This book (series #4) takes place 22 generations later. The individual ships have lost contact with each other. Street gangs run everything. As the disparity between male and female grew, men were valued (even cherished) at first, but as the gangs gained power they (men) were seen as possessions that could be used (rented out) for profit. This story is about liberation and equality, and the reunification of the ships.

This isn't correct. If the gene pool is too narrow this can cause various problems that weaken the population as a whole regardless what gender they are. There's nothing about the Y chromosome that makes it different to any other chromosome. It's smaller and X and Y aren't technically homologous (i.e. they don't have the same genes as each other, like the other pairs do), but that's it. Some genetic illnesses affect males much more often than females because they're recessive and on the X chromosome, and men only get one copy of the X chromosome while women get two, so if men get the dodgy allele (i.e. version of a gene), there's no dominant normal allele to prevent them getting the illness. Is this what you meant? It's not because the Y chromosome is weak, it's because it doesn't carry the same genes as the X chromosome.

If this is what you meant, this wouldn't result in a skewing of the gender ratio. There are 22 other chromosomes and any chromosome can have dodgy genes. If the gene pool is small (due to a small, isolated population) then the reason why genetic illnesses become more common is because of inbreeding. If you breed with someone too closely related to yourself (closer than 2nd cousin) then there's a high probability that you both have the same dodgy genes, meaning there's a much greater chance of your offspring getting two copies of the same recessive gene. The smaller the population, the more likely is you're going to end up breeding with someone too closely related to yourself. Also, smaller population = less variation which causes other issues from an evolutionary point of view (more variation = more chance of some individuals surviving a big change in the environment). So narrow gene pools are not good, but they don't skew the gender ratio and there is nothing fundamentally weak or bad about Y chromosomes.

There are isolated human populations that are much smaller than the one you describe and the gender ratio is still 50:50.

Having said all that, you can have your population become female dominated for economic reasons. If people are able to choose the sex of their babies (e.g. through genetic engineering) then a female dominated society that values female babies more than male babies could end up having a very skewed gender ratio. Cultures that practice female infanticide or abortion of female foetuses for no reason other than the fact they're female can end up with gender ratios that are as skewed as 7:3 male:female.

indianroads · Oct 26, 2019

Although its been justifiably dismissed, I'm using the theory put forth in Adam's Curse. I am very aware that it's highly unlikely to come to fruition, but I'm writing fiction so I'm going with it.

neandermagnon · Oct 26, 2019

indianroads said:
Although its been justifiably dismissed, I'm using the theory put forth in Adam's Curse. I am very aware that it's highly unlikely to come to fruition, but I'm writing fiction so I'm going with it.

That's fine, but you probably need to say that it's based on that premise. To be fair, it's a very interesting premise on which to base a story so I'm with you from that side of things.

I looked up the book online. I'm sure he knows a great deal about the particular field of human genetics he's a specialist in, but the problems with the theory centre on how humans fit into the bigger picture of biology. Not just his lack of understanding of human evolution but also the apparent failure to realise that Y chromosomes have been around for a hell of a lot longer than humans have and if they were fundamentally flawed enough to cause the "extinction" of males (as if one gender of a species can go extinct independently of the other...) in 5,000 generations then a huge number of species would've gone extinct a long time ago, long before humans would've had a chance to evolve. And he appears to have some bizarre ideas about a few other things but I'll leave it there so as not to derail the thread.

Back on topic, it is a very interesting premise on which to base a story. You probably want to make it clear that you're basing it on this idea, as otherwise you'll get quite a few readers who can't get into it because they don't find the reasons for the male:female ratio being skewed to be plausible. I don't find it remotely plausible but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the story - same as how I find the political background of The Hunger Games completely implausible but I still enjoyed the book. I just need to know in advance that I have to suspend my disbelief about it.

Dan Rhys · Oct 26, 2019

Women outnumbering men 4 to 1 means a LOT of happy men :-D

indianroads · Oct 26, 2019

neandermagnon said:
That's fine, but you probably need to say that it's based on that premise. To be fair, it's a very interesting premise on which to base a story so I'm with you from that side of things.

I looked up the book online. I'm sure he knows a great deal about the particular field of human genetics he's a specialist in, but the problems with the theory centre on how humans fit into the bigger picture of biology. Not just his lack of understanding of human evolution but also the apparent failure to realise that Y chromosomes have been around for a hell of a lot longer than humans have and if they were fundamentally flawed enough to cause the "extinction" of males (as if one gender of a species can go extinct independently of the other...) in 5,000 generations then a huge number of species would've gone extinct a long time ago, long before humans would've had a chance to evolve. And he appears to have some bizarre ideas about a few other things but I'll leave it there so as not to derail the thread.

Back on topic, it is a very interesting premise on which to base a story. You probably want to make it clear that you're basing it on this idea, as otherwise you'll get quite a few readers who can't get into it because they don't find the reasons for the male:female ratio being skewed to be plausible. I don't find it remotely plausible but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the story - same as how I find the political background of The Hunger Games completely implausible but I still enjoyed the book. I just need to know in advance that I have to suspend my disbelief about it.

Thank you very much for your interest and for taking the time to write. I truly do appreciate it. Any input, especially when it challenges my ideas, provokes thought and improves the tale I'm attempting to tell.

Science fiction is full of impossible things, and yet I've never read a disclaimer. Do you think it's really necessary? It's sort of a given in a lot of fiction... scifi, horror, and don't even get started on fantasy.

Not sure if I've got this right, but I recall reading a quote from Robert Heinlein (a favorite author of mine), where he said he allowed himself one impossible thing in his stories - thinking back to his novels, I think he pushed past that limit more than once.

I do my best to stick to Heinlein's maxim, but have at times given myself permission to slip beyond it for the sake of the story.

Again, thanks!

AW Admin · Oct 26, 2019

Dan Rhys said:
Women outnumbering men 4 to 1 means a LOT of happy men :-D

That's a nice heteronormative sexist and exceedingly naïve conclusion regarding the nature of human sexuality.

You might want to do a little research on what happens in social contexts where women are the majority of the population.

zanzjan · Oct 26, 2019

Dan Rhys said:
Women outnumbering men 4 to 1 means a LOT of happy men :-D

I would posit that an increased ratio of women to men only directly affects men's happiness if, in the OP's worldbuilding, they also establish that a smaller percentage of those men are assholes.

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