Not sure what's going wrong with current WIP, help?

NINA28 · Oct 17, 2019

Do you think it works out better to plan your character and their personal journey like character arc and then create a plot around it. Or do you think it's better to plan out your story and see what natural develops for the character. Because I'm having real problems getting this particular story flowing.

I've written short fiction before but this is my first attempt at a full novel so zero experience there, and I've just been struggling so much, even when trying to use steps provided by other writers on blogs and articles. I have the very beginning planned out and I'm happy but I can't seem to work anything out from this point and I'm not sure why. I don't know if it's lack of character goal, motivation, conflict or whether it's a plot problem.
I need some advice and I'm happy to give a brief synopsis of my introduction so far if needed. Something not working and I don't have the experience to know what it is.

Thank you

talktidy · Oct 17, 2019

I think this is a question that only you can answer after spending more time and effort to see what works for you best.

I am very plot orientated, and I like having an outline to work from, an outline, which seldom survives past my first few chapters, but that is a gripe for another time. I make extensive notes as I go, re upcoming plot points in the over arching plot arc, how I want a scene to pan out, what a character wants, how a character is going to reveal themselves to others, etc. This is what seems to work for me, but it obviously may not suit you.

If you are having problems in making headway, maybe it would serve you to consider a different or opposite approach from the one you are already employing.

lizmonster · Oct 17, 2019

I've found a few gems in here: https://nofilmschool.com/2012/06/22-rules-storytelling-pixar

The ones that have helped me most are 6 (which I interpret as "what's the most awful thing I could throw at my character right now?"), 9 (make a list of what CAN'T happen next), and 14 (why am I telling this particular story).

I generally have an ending up front (both a character's emotional state and an equilibrium of setting), so often I can nudge myself forward by thinking "What step can I take to move me toward the ending?" I may end up taking a leap that's too big, but hey, it's a draft; I'll fix it later.

The main thing I do is keep moving in a known direction. I don't know the path, but I have a rough destination in mind. Anything going that way is good; anything in the weeds is bad.

Lady Fox · Oct 17, 2019

I think it's a personal thing. Every writer will have their own work around, and what works for one may not work for another. I began with a very brief plot and tiny outline of two characters. The story AND the characters have changed tremendously over the course of the writing the book. That wasn't down to planning or outlining, just flying by the seat of my pants. But - IMO - this has somewhat delayed the writing process because I've had to go back and check details, plot lines etc sooooo many times. I ended up doing a brief outline just to stay on track. For the next book (it's a series of three, and no.1 is still in the editing process) I plan to do a detailed outline (which I've already begun). Having said that, it only takes a moment of inspiration to throw the storyline off track (something that's happened to me over and over again).

If I could give you any advice it would be this - just write. If you're stuck and can't move forward then write ANYTHING. Even if it seems ridiculous at the time it could just lead to something, which leads to something else, which gives you that light bulb moment. It's certainly worked for me. Also - music is a biggy for me - helps every time.

Girlsgottawrite · Oct 17, 2019

This is something that is probably going to take you a while to figure out. You're new and still haven't totally discovered your process, which means, what you think will work, may not. Some writers plot a ton, then throw it all out as soon as they start writing, some are pure pantsers, and others stick to an outline like glue. You'll never figure it out until you get into the trenches and write. The worst thing you can do is stop - keep pushing. Even if you have to go back and rewrite everything, it will help you discover what works for you and your book.

One of the most important and gut wrenching lessons I've had to learn is that I can't expect to write a book to my satisfaction the first time. It's so hard when you have so little time to write to come to terms with the idea that much of what you write will have to be tossed, but unfortunately that's how we learn. My books start out as crap and seem to slowly improve with each revision and iteration. It sucks, but it's worth it in the end (I think).

So in summation, :tongue

My advice to you would be to let go a little and see where your story takes you. You will probably have to write and rewrite and revise and cut many, many, many times before it's even fit for human consumption. But I've found that letting go of the need to get everything right the first time around has made my process more productive and fun.

Good luck!

angeliz2k · Oct 18, 2019

Plot and character arc are not separate things, so maybe you need to think of them as one, entwined entity.

It sounds to me like you personally like/need a certain amount of planning. I suggest you figure out where you're going with this, character-wise and plot-wise. You don't necessarily need to plan in great detail, as you did with the beginning, but create a framework for yourself so you know where you want to end up. With that as your general guide (and of course it may change), you can plan two or three chapters ahead of where you are, if you need that level of planning before starting a chapter. You might benefit from deciding what you want this story to be, where you want your characters to end, and what you want the story to be about (a young woman who finds her own voice after x events? a soldier who learns to trust other people? a man who learns that taking a moral stand has costs? etc.).

This is, generally, how I work. I have an idea of where I will begin and end, with maybe a few ideas for what comes between (minor plot points, bits of dialogue). The flesh and bones are filled in as I write, and it tends to happen organically as I build the setting and populate the world with characters who want things. I generally think of it as moving along a dark path with a known destination, with a flashlight illuminating the way about ten feet ahead of me. "Aha, there's the rock I suspected would be here," I think when a plot point or bit of dialogue comes up that I'd thought of earlier. And, "Oh, well that's an interesting tree," when a delightful secondary character pops up. At the end, I reach the destination, having walked a path I hadn't quite imagined when I first set out. (It pays to be mindful of the destination and not get waylaid or diverted.)

indianroads · Oct 18, 2019

NINA28 said:
Do you think it works out better to plan your character and their personal journey like character arc and then create a plot around it. Or do you think it's better to plan out your story and see what natural develops for the character. Because I'm having real problems getting this particular story flowing.

I've written short fiction before but this is my first attempt at a full novel so zero experience there, and I've just been struggling so much, even when trying to use steps provided by other writers on blogs and articles. I have the very beginning planned out and I'm happy but I can't seem to work anything out from this point and I'm not sure why. I don't know if it's lack of character goal, motivation, conflict or whether it's a plot problem.
I need some advice and I'm happy to give a brief synopsis of my introduction so far if needed. Something not working and I don't have the experience to know what it is.

Thank you

I'm a plotter, but all I can tell you is what I do and there's no guarantee it will work for you.

I take it that you at least know where your story starts and where it ends. If you don't have an idea where your main character(s) and story ends yet, I strongly suggest you figure that out before going further. Once that's done, creating a plot is as simple as planning a drive across the country.

Let's say you are starting in San Francisco and want to end up in New York City. Once you have that, what cities (plot events) will your MC pass through along their way? Each should progress your plot and provide a challenge to your character (moving them along their arc).

There also needs to be an inciting incident at are very near the beginning that makes the trip away from San Francisco necessary (your MC may not know about New York yet, but you do). For example, an earthquake might make your MC move away. At the end of the story there usually is some sort of conclusion - your MC could land a good job or fall in with a good group of friends.

All of us have different processes - and it's a near certainty that what works for me or someone else won't work for you. As to templates and advice you find on the internet, take all of it as suggestions, not rules. Find your own way. Writing is ART, what worked for Leonardo wouldn't have worked for Picasso.

Enlightened · Oct 18, 2019

NINA28 said:
Do you think it works out better to plan your character and their personal journey like character arc and then create a plot around it. Or do you think it's better to plan out your story and see what natural develops for the character. Because I'm having real problems getting this particular story flowing.

I've written short fiction before but this is my first attempt at a full novel so zero experience there, and I've just been struggling so much, even when trying to use steps provided by other writers on blogs and articles. I have the very beginning planned out and I'm happy but I can't seem to work anything out from this point and I'm not sure why. I don't know if it's lack of character goal, motivation, conflict or whether it's a plot problem.
I need some advice and I'm happy to give a brief synopsis of my introduction so far if needed. Something not working and I don't have the experience to know what it is.

Thank you

What works for me....

A story (collection of all character arcs) consists of plot (plot points, beats, whatever), characters, and setting (physical and cultural). Plot, characters, and setting are connected (and fueled) by conflict (internal and external).

You can start with any element you like. For me, I start with setting (here is my explanation, if interested).

Try starting with different elements first. It may flow easier for you one way over the others.

Woollybear · Oct 18, 2019

For me, I had to simply force my way to the end of the book. I followed the three act structure. The first draft was bad, but it was finished, and I enjoyed revising it into something better. I worked through the whole thing dozens of times, usually with a specific goal (Increase tension. Clarify motivations. Work on voice. Convert telling to showing. Etc). I'm of the opinion that there are so many balls to keep in the air that you simply must forgive yourself for dropping them on the first pass. Allow it to be bad.

On the second novel, I'm using the snowflake method. I think this method is a keeper, for the way I work. I expect I will need to do many re-drafts of this second novel too, but hopefully not as many as I did on the first novel.

Good luck. Be easy on yourself, and keep writing.

NINA28 · Oct 19, 2019

Thanks everyone for all the help. I think your absolutely right that I need to give myself permission to write crap and that it doesn't have to be award winning in its first draft. Thinking about it last night, some of the problem maybe that because this story could be anything, it could go in any direction, I don't know what kind of story I want to tell. I'm not sure if I want to focus on the War going on, or the Magic, or the Science, or the psychology and what an happen to people under pressure and when they feel hope it gone and they could die. I have no idea what story I'm trying to tell and I have no idea which one I do want to tell. I'm not really stuck, because I have several directions to take my characters, it's just choosing the one.

indianroads · Oct 19, 2019

If you're a plotter, write an outline for each chapter - but realize that the deeper you get into the story the more you novel will deviate from your outline, this is ok as long as you get to the end of your original plot.

Regarding the first draft, my goal is to have it be not awful, or at least not make me want to retch. Get the ideas down, move your characters around, then clean it up later.

Carrie in PA · Oct 19, 2019

You may want to give NaNoWriMo a try. It's great for focusing on getting words on the page. It can be easy to get mired in the details and never actually write anything.

NaNo isn't for everyone, but even if you poke around the forums and maybe join some local meet-ups to meet other writers, you can get some benefit from it. And who knows? Maybe the challenge will inspire you to get your first draft written and you'll find out you're a pantser. Ooooorrrrr, you could also discover that you're a die hard plotter and NaNo is a hive-inducing nightmare. Either way, it could be a wonderful learning experience.

ETA: There is also a NaNo forum here, near the very bottom of the page listing the forums.

NINA28 · Oct 21, 2019

Thanks, I'll take at look at NaNo.

Murky · Oct 21, 2019

Hang in there Nina28 and never give up.

As I suspect you are experiencing now, the writing style of a full novel is surprisingly different than short fiction. The difference is more than just a higher word count.

See if you can find a good article or book on the traditional three arc storytelling. While experimenting with the style is fun, the traditional structure works well.

In my current story, I started with a theme. What did I want to address in my story? Note that this is different from what the story is about.
For example, the Lord of the Flies is about a group of children marooned on an island and how their society breaks apart. But the theme is commonly agreed to be about the conflict between human impulses and rules of civilization.

So, try and find what your theme is, and then decide on how to best address that theme. You do not necessary answer it directly, but if the reader subconsciously know / feels the theme and also think the story match that expectation, you are on the right path.

Next, I started with the overall plot. The large arches of what I want to happen and balance that towards my theme.

After that I went back and forth between letting the characters move the plot forward and letting the plot push the characters in a new direction.

During this process I added “minor” themes and added those to the plot.
In Lord of the Flies, this could be issues of ‘strength makes right’, ‘ends justify the means’ etc.

But all this depends on your writing style really.
Some prefer to just start with an idea and let the story go wherever it takes you, but others want to plan everything to a minute detail before they begin. Most probably somewhere in between.

Finding your own style might take a few tries, and hopefully you will have fun finding out.

Sonya Heaney · Oct 21, 2019

Even if a writer doesn't do NaNo, I find that setting myself a specific deadline helps. It makes you write through, no matter what.

indianroads - Your way of working sounds similar to mine. I know some authors can start with no plan and write a great book, but I need to know what the final goal for my characters is. And then I add an extra layer in each round of edits.

Woollybear · Oct 22, 2019

I'm also a plotter.

Nina, it helps me to know about three or four things:

(1) What does my protagonist want and why?
(2) What does my antagonist want and why? (I need an antagonist. Both novels I started writing without clearly thinking through the main antagonist, and it went nowhere fast until i realized the antagonist half is just as important as the protagonist half.)

(2.5) (What does every other character want and why?)

(3) Why must this book exist? <-- This is actually very big, to me. What is the question that the book asks that none of the characters are even aware of? This idea might be 'theme,' I'm not sure. The book needs to have oomph, at least to my way of thinking. It needs a reason to exist. In my current WIP, I have personal goals (outlining the various climate events that occur, and sustainable technologies.) But my personal authorial goal is not important to the characters, nor is it the theme. The theme in this second WIP (the reason I think it has to exist) is more along the lines of asking whether individuals or groups are more important to effecting change in society.

So those pieces need to be there for me, but finding them can be slow. Once I have a clear goal-motivation-conflict arc type setup for the protagonist and the antagonist, and a theme (a reason the book exists), I can plot out an arc for the story using the snowflake method.

And, I've discovered that for me to be happy with my stories all my characters need individual goals. The story feels real once that happens.

indianroads · Oct 22, 2019

Patty said:
[...]

(3) Why must this book exist? <-- This is actually very big, to me. What is the question that the book asks that none of the characters are even aware of? This idea might be 'theme,' I'm not sure. The book needs to have oomph, at least to my way of thinking. It needs a reason to exist. In my current WIP, I have personal goals (outlining the various climate events that occur, and sustainable technologies.) But my personal authorial goal is not important to the characters, nor is it the theme. The theme in this second WIP (the reason I think it has to exist) is more along the lines of asking whether individuals or groups are more important to effecting change in society.

[...]

I definitely agree about character goals, especially the antagonist since they are so often overlooked. Every character has their own beliefs, and usually they think they are doing the right thing. Good and evil, I believe, are malleable concepts and are usually based on perspective. There are pros and cons to every side of every issue, and we can't coherently discuss complex problems by trading meme's on the book of faces... and yet this done all the time, which makes the subjects polarizing.

I also agree about having a reason why the book is written. There are a ton of rollicking mindless adventures out there that fill the niche of books to read while on a long airline flight. Like you, I try to make my books be about something beyond a superficial adventure. With that said though, I do my best to stay off the soap box because preaching to readers can actually pull them away from what you are trying to say, and push them in the opposite direction. To do this, I tell the truth of the situation as best as I can and let the determination of whether it's good and bad to my readers.

Woollybear · Oct 22, 2019

One of the nice things about forums is that they aren't novels. Thus, when people soapbox to me the importance of not soapboxing, I recognize that they are simply soapboxing to me within the frame of an internet forum.

One of the nice things about the internet is the opportunity to connect with others.

I'm glad we see overlap in our philosophies.

I mean that sincerely. Our commonalities are awesome in their scope.

ubriel · Oct 22, 2019

I usually start with whatever I am inspired by. If it is a character, I tell myself all I can about the character and then figure out what might be going on in their life. If it is an event or world concept, I try to think of how that would shape the various types of people that come into contact with it. The creative process is so individual, it is difficult to really lay a path for any other person to just hop on and follow.

It sounds like there are many things about the character that you could enjoy telling a story about. Have you considered just giving yourself a page or two limitation and just write the main theme of each part you are interested in? Getting the gist of the story, without worrying abuot arcs and pacing and all that, out and in a form you can look at could help you decide what direction you feel most inspired to elaborate on.

Good luck!

NINA28 · Oct 22, 2019

That's for the advice so far. Funny someone mentioned the three act structure because I've been looking at it most of the night and how other stories fit into it, just to see how it works. I'll also start thinking about a theme and try answering the questions provided. I do think goal is maybe a part of my problem. My main characters goal is survival and I think it's not personal enough. We all have survival instincts so it's relatable, but the "I want to survive because it's my instinct" I'm not sure is enough.

I don't have an entire story in mind. Just a situation. And I'm trying to build my plot from that situation but having a really hard time. Maybe there is a flaw in that first part of my story that is causing problems? Happy to share a brief synopsis if needed. I've tried "what if'" but just come up blank

lizmonster · Oct 23, 2019

NINA28 said:
I don't have an entire story in mind. Just a situation. And I'm trying to build my plot from that situation but having a really hard time. Maybe there is a flaw in that first part of my story that is causing problems? Happy to share a brief synopsis if needed. I've tried "what if'" but just come up blank

Just a thought.

You say at the start you've only ever written short stories before. I've written a handful of shorts over the last year or so after decades of writing nothing but novels. For me, at least, it's a completely different composition process. With a short, I have to have the whole concept in my head before I start writing, and at least a rough sketch of everything that happens in the story. With a novel, I literally can't do that - if I try to work everything out ahead of time, it all falls apart.

My second book started out as two scenes about the same character, 8 years apart. I didn't know how or if they were related. I sure didn't know what the book was supposed to be about, either plot or theme. I started writing; a bit character that had originally not even appeared apart from being referenced by others took over the story; by the time I was done, the two original scenes were linked by the story's larger plot, and that bit character had given me the story's whole theme.

Everyone's process is going to be different. But I'm wondering if it's possible your novel process needs to be different from your short story process.

onesecondglance · Oct 23, 2019

lizmonster said:
You say at the start you've only ever written short stories before. I've written a handful of shorts over the last year or so after decades of writing nothing but novels. For me, at least, it's a completely different composition process.

Seconding this - I recently tried writing some shorts in between my novels and found it far harder than I expected. There's a very different flow to the story, for want of a better word - a different "shape", perhaps.

Either way, I can't write a short like I would a novel, nor the other way around. They require a different kind of focus - at least, that's what I found.

kranix1 · Oct 23, 2019

I think it depends on what kind of story you're telling and how many characters you're using. If it's larger scale with multiple POV characters, definitely plan out your story first and find those moments that help grow the character. If there's only one POV character I would do it the other way and figure out exactly how you want that character to grow, and structure the story around that.

NINA28 · Oct 23, 2019

Oh there is definitely a difference between short and long stories. Normally I'd write a short story in a day, with no planning. I uploaded one of here a few months ago called "the Train" (I think). They are only a page or two long and mostly I just did them for practice and to boost my confidence. I tried different Genres. Now I'm attempting a Fantasy/Dystopian novel so decided to have something of a plan. So far everything is from the POV of my main character. My story line has changed several times. My current main character was, in my first idea, actually just an impact character for a different main, then I discovered she was far more interesting and that she had a lot more conflict and more of a story to tell. My other main character was very reactionary. And really, had no reason to get involved in what was going on as it didn't affect her life or anyone she cared about.

I don't know of it's so much about how I plan because I've spent the last four hours trying to plan out the events in the three act structure. I get right up to the First Plot Point and have no idea where to go next. I also think I know very little back-story to my plot. Maybe that's why. I know the story is set on Earth in a no too distant future. I know 20 years ago Scientist's and the Government where doing a series of secret investigations in a isolated spot in a dessert (a bit like area 51). The research was investigating the possibilities of other dimensions after, a large storm occurred. After the storm in the morning a city could been seen in the sky (like in China). Some called it an illusion. They manage to open a portal to another dimension, but something goes wrong, they can't control it and the creatures from that world spill into ours, along with a strange mist. The Mist is actually entities that dominate that world. They have no physical form, but can enter one and take over their body. Magic came into this world as well. A war against these entities began, we lost. They enslaved us. That's all I know.

indianroads · Oct 23, 2019

Short stories I pants.
Novels I plot.

Not sure what's going wrong with current WIP, help?

NINA28

talktidy

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Lady Fox

Girlsgottawrite

I write at work...

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

Enlightened

Always Learning

Woollybear

NINA28

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!

NINA28

Murky

Sonya Heaney

Woollybear

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

Woollybear

ubriel

NINA28

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

onesecondglance

pretending to be awake

kranix1

NINA28

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.