So my new WiP has very little plot...

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LadyA

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Hi everyone! I used to be pretty active on here, about seven or eight years ago when I was regularly writing, and finishing, books, and when I got my agent back in 2015. Since then, life has happened, and writing...hasn't. I got very close with a couple of books that my agent sent out, but not quite, and that hit hard. Since then, I've started quite a few books, got to about the 15k word stage, and then abandoned them when I realized that every one of my ideas is so heavily character driven, and I was so wrapped up in the characters and overarching theme that I didn't really have much (if any) of a plot. Which is really hard because I love to write dark, thriller-type YA, and if nothing big happens then no one is going to keep reading.
The last time I finished a manuscript was in summer 2016, and I just want to get all the way to the end of a book again.
I always prefer the brainstorming and the edits to the first-draft-writing so it's an uphill struggle.

TL;DR - how do I keep readers hooked with a minimal plot?

Thank you! :)
 

frimble3

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I realized that every one of my ideas is so heavily character driven, and I was so wrapped up in the characters and overarching theme that I didn't really have much (if any) of a plot. Which is really hard because I love to write dark, thriller-type YA, and if nothing big happens then no one is going to keep reading.
(snip)
TL;DR - how do I keep readers hooked with a minimal plot?

Thank you! :)
First things that springs to my mind is why aren't you writing plots if you
love to write dark, thriller-type YA
?

Did someone or something put you off them?
And, I think that, as you say, it's hard to hook readers without a plot. Heck, it's hard to get them to read the book at all, if there's no clear story.
'It's about these two people and their friends and how they all inter-relate' isn't really going to attract eyeballs, let alone wallets.
Once you have a name for stories with interesting characters and relationships, that might be enough for some readers, but, 'til then, you have to have something happening.
What kind of dark, thriller-type plots were you interested in, and what do you mean by 'minimal plot'?
I mean, "X wants to throw a big party for her parents, but has no money and has to do it without the parents catching on" is minimal, but has lots of room for expansion. (Particularly if the reason the parents don't seem interested is because they're planning a divorce.)
 

cool pop

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You are exactly right. No one wants to read a story with nothing happening no matter how good the characters are. Do you outline? I do. Outlining is great for coming up with a solid plot. I suggest you Google and find some plot generators or prompts to give you an idea. Go through your characters and flesh things out and your characters can lead you to an idea. Reading a book or watching a movie can give you an idea that gets your juices flowing. You need conflict and you need something happening.

You need to juice it up and make sure you have loads of conflict and tension to keep folks turning the page. If you feel your plot is lacking then readers definitely will.
 

cool pop

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First things that springs to my mind is why aren't you writing plots if you ?

Did someone or something put you off them?
And, I think that, as you say, it's hard to hook readers without a plot. Heck, it's hard to get them to read the book at all, if there's no clear story.
'It's about these two people and their friends and how they all inter-relate' isn't really going to attract eyeballs, let alone wallets.
Once you have a name for stories with interesting characters and relationships, that might be enough for some readers, but, 'til then, you have to have something happening.
What kind of dark, thriller-type plots were you interested in, and what do you mean by 'minimal plot'?
I mean, "X wants to throw a big party for her parents, but has no money and has to do it without the parents catching on" is minimal, but has lots of room for expansion. (Particularly if the reason the parents don't seem interested is because they're planning a divorce.)


It would be impossible to hook a reader like me without a good plot. I'm a plot-driven reader. I have to be interested in your plot or else I won't even check out your book. I would guess most readers prefer plot over just characters existing. Who wants to read a story without an interesting plot? The characters have to be doing something of significance and if they aren't then it's a waste of good characters and not to mention the reader's time. I don't want to read a character sketch. I want a story and there is no such thing as a story without a solid plot. Even character-driven stories have to have a solid plot.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Some genres are more plot driven than others, and I think thrillers would be in that category. With this genre, I am guessing something external happening in the character's world will start the ball rolling, so to speak.

This doesn't mean characters can't be driving much of the plot, however. Their responses to what happens in the story will have an effect on how things unfold. How much of an effect will depend on the nature of the problem, of course. When a story revolves around intrigue or foul play or danger, your characters' personalities will become important in the ultimate outcome.

I find it helpful to keep track of what your main character wants in the story--whether it's avoiding something they fear, achieving a set goal, proving something to someone or whatever. These goals can change, of course. A motivation that starts with someone doing something to impress a romantic interest can change into a focus on what was once a means to an end, for instance.

Since your story is mid grade with dark elements, I can't help thinking of Harry Potter. Look how the story started, with the main character's motivation surviving life with the Dursleys, then moving on to fitting in at Hogwarts, but finally he got caught up with trying to solve a mystery and face down a villain. There were slower bits, illustrating daily life at the school where there was some focus on difficulties the students had with their classes or with each other, or even the details of Quiddich (and various subplots re the competition between houses), but if you look carefully, those scenes tended to foreshadow something that would be needed later, or reveal things about how magic worked, or drop a hint about a particular teacher or what not.
 
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Netz

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:welcome: back, LadyA. So lovely to see you here again - I was just wondering about you the other day. If ever you need a beta... :) (but, yeah, you'll have to finish a manuscript for that :tongue :greenie).
 

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Have you had critique from others saying that your work doesn't have a good enough plot? If the plot is your main problem, consider outlining it first before anything else; until you have at least the bones of what is going to happen, don't bother getting too far into your characters. I always come up with an overarching plot before anything else, and then deal with everyone involved in it after.
 

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I don't know the conventions of your genre to know if a strong plot is important, though I suspect it is if you're concerned about it.

But there are many, many novels where plot is not at the top of the list for appeal/value. Some works are nearly pure character studies. Some are all about tone or setting a mood. I'm reading Digging to America by Anne Tyler right now, and while there's a plot, it's the character interaction and development that's important.
 

cool pop

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Some genres are more plot driven than others, and I think thrillers would be in that category. With this genre, I am guessing something external happening in the character's world will start the ball rolling, so to speak.

This doesn't mean characters can't be driving much of the plot, however. Their responses to what happens in the story will have an effect on how things unfold. How much of an effect will depend on the nature of the problem, of course. When a story revolves around intrigue or foul play or danger, your characters' personalities will become important in the ultimate outcome.

I find it helpful to keep track of what your main character wants in the story--whether it's avoiding something they fear, achieving a set goal, proving something to someone or whatever. These goals can change, of course. A motivation that starts with someone doing something to impress a romantic interest can change into a focus on what was once a means to an end, for instance.

Since your story is mid grade with dark elements, I can't help thinking of Harry Potter. Look how the story started, with the main character's motivation surviving life with the Dursleys, then moving on to fitting in at Hogwarts, but finally he got caught up with trying to solve a mystery and face down a villain. There were slower bits, illustrating daily life at the school where there was some focus on difficulties the students had with their classes or with each other, or even the details of Quiddich (and various subplots re the competition between houses), but if you look carefully, those scenes tended to foreshadow something that would be needed later, or reveal things about how magic worked, or drop a hint about a particular teacher or what not.

I agree. A thriller HAS to have a strong plot. I love thrillers and I write them too. I can't see any thriller fan wanting to read a thriller without a strong plot. It's not like literary fiction where you might can get away with focusing more on characters and that be enough. Thrillers are plot driven and the plots are why people read them. They might love the characters but they read thrillers for the excitement and the plot. Without the plot, a thriller wouldn't be a thriller IMO.
 
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NINA28

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There are plenty of plots that sound basic like Romeo and Juliet. That core plot is quite basic, but then when you get other characters and their stories lines in there, then you add in the conflict it all starts to become more complex. Is it possible your not giving your side characters enough attention? They have to be real people and the main character of their own story. Maybe your lacking conflict. Or you haven't worked your plan out in detail. If I told you my plot it would sound like much was happening, but if I went into depth and added in sub-plots it's really complicated.
 

ubriel

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Character driven stories are exactly what lifestyle pieces are about. "Look at this big house, look at this crazy tattoo, look at this party they had that you weren't invited to."
Plot can be a deep dive into who your characters are and what made them that way.
Setting driven stories are exactly what history and culture pieces are about. "Look at that architecture, look at this big canon ball hole in that architecture, look at this huge forest of trees that were imported as saplings from the moons of Rigel VII."
Plot can be an historical narrative of how and why a place became what it is, and how that shaped the culture of the people who live there.

Plot is often described as "conflict." I can see how this feels like the best umbrella term for it. But I think it misses the point when a plot is less struggle and more cause and effect. If what you love is developing the characters and building the world, then do it. Somewhere in the middle of all that development, you will probably discover that you do have a plot and it is fascinating.
Not everyone wants to read the same battle scenes and trumped up reasons for shallow characters to do shallow deeds.

Alternatively, have you considered handing one of your favorite WIPs to a fellow author and getting a few in-world short arc ideas? Sometimes a collaborative effort is what you need to get things stirred up in your head.
 

Roxxsmom

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But a thriller is not the same thing as a lifestyle piece. Thrillers, by definition, create a sense of suspense, anxiety, suspense, paranoia, and surprise.

These elements are not exclusive to thrillers, of course. But with thrillers, there is generally something external driving the conflict, and the character ends up trying to solve a problem that involves danger, typically with high stakes that extend beyond themselves (though psychological thrillers can be more personal--still, the stakes are high). When someone says thriller, I think of stories involving hostages, bombs, terrorist attacks, crimes that must be stopped, or mysteries that must be solved quickly to save lives (maybe even the protagonist's own) or something of great importance to the protagonist.

There can be overlap with other genres, such as SF, mystery, historical, or horror, but the pacing, nature of the stakes, and the general sense of suspense etc. is high in a thriller. For instance, in horror, there is plenty of anxiety, fear, and life-threatening situations, but the emphasis is more on the terrifying elements themselves, and on the simple survival of the protagonists, not on figuring out how to stop a wider-reaching plot or crisis.

I think there are certainly plenty of gray areas too. Stephen King stories are generally billed as horror, but many have elements of thrillers as well, even if there is a heavy focus on the "splatter" factor too.

Regardless, if long intervals are going on without much happening, where that tension level is relatively low, then the story probably lacks the sense of urgency one associates with thrillers.
 

Debbie V

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I wonder if you need to forget about readers for a while. How do you keep yourself hooked? What story would you tell yourself or your sixteen-year-old self if you weren't going to write a word and no one would know? Write that story. Not for your agent or some abstract view of today's teens. Write for you. Revise for the rest once you've completed that draft.

Another thought is what Roxxsmom said above. What does your character want and why? What do they need and why? Make those two things opposites. Figure out what gets in the way of them getting the first but still pushes them toward the second. To me, that's plot: the events that keep the character from getting what they want or need until the end.
 

frimble3

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I agree. A thriller HAS to have a strong plot. I love thrillers and I write them too. I can't see any thriller fan wanting to read a thriller without a strong plot. It's not like literary fiction where you might can get away with focusing more on characters and that be enough. Thrillers are plot driven and the plots are why people read them. They might love the characters but they read thrillers for the excitement and the plot. Without the plot, a thriller wouldn't be a thriller IMO.
That's why I'm wondering why the OP wrote this character piece if she likes to write 'dark, thriller-type YA'?
 

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Wait, is this particular story supposed to be a thriller? I was under the impression that, while OP usually writes those stories, the WIPs* they've got right now aren't what they usually write.

Here's my suggestion for keeping the readers hooked: mystery. Like, something Ominous is in the background, but it's not obvious to the characters even as the reader can see it. Like the literary equivalent of those "when you see it..." photos.



*I am pretty sure WIPs is the right plural, but maybe it's WsIP?
 

frimble3

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Wait, is this particular story supposed to be a thriller? I was under the impression that, while OP usually writes those stories, the WIPs* they've got right now aren't what they usually write.

That's what I thought, too, but perhaps I am wrong? Not that that hasn't happened before.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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I read and write dark YA psychological (ie character-driven) thrillers, so I hear where you’re coming from. It’s a tough balance. I’ve gotten the dreaded “nothing’s happening” and “your stakes aren’t high enough” critiques. I’ve gone in the exact opposite direction, killing off characters left and right, and heard, “Your characters need better development.” YA editors really expect both elements (plot and characters) to be strong.

First of all, I’d think hard about how much you want to write thrillers. If you’re struggling with plot, would you be happier writing dark contemps? Of course there’s still a plot arc, but the stakes generally don’t need to be life-or-death there.

Second, find comps—books in your category/genre that exemplify the kind of books you want to write. For me, that’s everything by Courtney Summers and Nova Ren Suma. I look at the techniques they use and how they’ve been marketed. It helps me find that elusive balance myself. If you can’t find any comps that you love, it may be time to reconsider your category and genre.

Third, you say you love brainstorming. That’s what plotting is! Read a bit online about three-act screenplay structure, midpoints, etc (you can find all the basic info for free). Yeah, this structure is formulaic and you kinda hate it (well, that was my first reaction). But you don’t have to hit every beat that Hollywood screenwriters hit. Think of the three acts as a skeleton that you can clothe with all the in-depth character development you desire. Make little diagrams. Think about how to set the stakes high from the get-go. Think about personal stakes (what the character wants) and plotty stakes (the killer must be stopped!) and how to make them dovetail or clash.

When you have an overall plot arc in mind, grab some index cards and start writing scene descriptions on them and shuffling and reshuffling them into an order that works. For me, having this flexibility helps a lot. I still have my scenes that do more to develop character than to advance plot, but I know they fit into an overall plot structure; for instance, a slow character moment might precede an action scene.

If you work things right, all that intense character building will give your plot the impact it needs to appeal to readers like me. Like I said, it’s a tough balance. But not impossible.

ETA: I realize it may seem like I’m not answering your question (how to hook readers without plot?), but for me the answer is that every book has a plot, whether it has big stakes or not, and the more aware you are of your own underlying plot structure, the better you can hook readers. The answer might not even be heightening your stakes. It might be rearranging, or clarifying something about the MC’s motives so that readers really care and want the MC to prevail.
 
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LadyA

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Firstly, thank you all for your really helpful and insightful replies! Secondly, I'm so sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you, I have been away from my laptop that has the password autosaved and I made the password so long ago I forgot what it was!

I've decided to restart the story, after a bit of hard thinking, with a plot focus first and the characters also up there, but not letting myself get bogged down in 'message' and 'theme' like I was before - I think I was trying to *say* something and letting that get in the way of actually telling a story. I'm going to try to write the story first and weave the message in in later edits, keeping the building blocks of that message/places where i push it home still in there, but not overwhelming it.

I don't think it's a thriller, but I can hopefully get some thriller-esque elements (and lots of lovely darkness) in there :)

Thanks everyone! I used to visit AWWC every day back when I was seriously writing (and learnt so much from all of you amazing people), and I'd love to get back into the habit, if not daily then at least more than once every 5 years!
 

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I'm late to the party, but like you, LadyA, I used to be a regular around the parts. (Actually we were at the same time. So hey!!)

Sounds like you have a plan of attack, but I still wanted to say that I think the best thrillers are character driven. Letting the MC's personality and arc drive the plot is what makes the magic happen for me, and I bet it will for you, too. So if you can center on the inciting incident that thrusts your character into a predicament, you may find the plot easier to grasp as you center it on pushing your MC forward on their emotional journey. This was my big "aha!" moment when I started writing thrillers, which I now plot (words I never thought I'd say).
 

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Hey, it must be old regulars week. Welcome back. I'm not on a lot these days either.

I usually never even consider plot, always going with the old saying, PLOT HAPPENS. But I write contemporary. Plot is kind of a stroll through the book that I don't have to pay attention to for it to unfold. I'm thinking you need tighter reins when it comes to such things as thriller, or even thriller-esque. As one who reads it, I know I want to turn those pages more rapidly than I would want to turn the pages in a nice contemporary. I think it's a great idea that you had to restart with a deep plot focus. Good luck!
 

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If you're struggling with creating a well-rounded story and theme, have you ever worked with a story editor to try to build more plot for your novel?
 

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Plot is the sequence of scenes in a book that make up the story, like starting the beginning in the character's normal, then having an inciting incident that shakes it up, then battles or interactions with the antagonist, planning to overcome the bad guy and then the final battle, and the character's new normal. You can have a very character-driven story, but the plot is a framework that directs where your characters will go and what they will do. You can be all about the characters and still have them follow the plot.
 
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