First person versus third

VVoltairx

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Which do you all find easiest to write?

I like first because it helps me get to know the protagonist better and you can do some interesting tricks with it. Such is in my latest completed novel. It was first person told from present and past tense. The protag in the future was telling the tale of her past and kept making fun of her young self for stupid choices. And then she'd project what she wished would have happened in her past by lying and then revealing it was wish fulfillment later on.
 

Bufty

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I doubt either is inherently 'easier' to write successfully and effectively, and I suspect most folk pick the POV that best suits the telling of the story.

No idea where the tricks come in but I can't think of any reason why writing in either one should be automatically easier or more difficult than the other.
 

SAWeiner

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So far, I've been using first person in what I write. It gives more immediacy, while third person is more aloof and removed.
 

Dan Rhys

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I would think first person is comparatively rare. I prefer third because it gives the reader a chance to know all characters equally well...first person is limited to one character's thoughts. Some make up for that by jumping from character to character with each chapter while remaining in first person.
 

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I hope this becomes easier with more experience writing. In my WIP I've had a lot of difficulty deciding whether to use first or third person limited and past or present tense. I suppose at some point I will share a few chapters with friends as a sort of A/B test.
 

Elle.

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I write in first, second and third POV, as Bufty said the choice purely depends on the story for me.
 

VVoltairx

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I doubt either is inherently 'easier' to write successfully and effectively, and I suspect most folk pick the POV that best suits the telling of the story.

No idea where the tricks come in but I can't think of any reason why writing in either one should be automatically easier or more difficult than the other.

I think it comes into play when trying to showcase different characters and situations in which the narrator is not partial to. If you stick to first throughout the entire novel, you're limited to that one perspective, which can make the other characters' motivations unclear.

I tend to pick a POV at random, whichever occurs to me to use at the moment. The story spawns from there.
 
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lizmonster

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For me, POV is part of tone. The MS I just finished (well, mostly finished :)) is the first full-length novel I've written in first person. It's a lot more immediate, which works better for this story than third limited. I find third limited gives more of a cinematic effect, maybe as a result of the slightly greater narrative distance.

As to which is easier for me - third, probably, because I'm used to it. But trying to use it for this MS would have been obstructively difficult, because it would have been the wrong tool.
 

amergina

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Third person past is my default story-telling mode. Writing a novel in third is as natural to me as breathing. But I know others who say the same about first...

I've written in first person past--some stories just call for it. It does have a certain immediacy and closeness about it. I haven't tried present tense in either persons--haven't run across a story that calls for that yes.

But I don't think third person is always removed or aloof--it can be--but it can also be extraordinarily emotional and close. Third person allows the narrator to choose how close to the skin and bone to ride the characters and you can get damn close to them, to the same level of a first person narration.
 

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I prefer third person in reading and writing because it feels like an invitation to get inside someone's head. First person feels more like forced intimacy, to me.

I like data and sometimes go through new releases at the library, or contest results, or whatever--and first vs. third breaks about even. I think fiction splits down the middle but it might depend on genre.

Past seems more prevalent than present tense, but i like present tense and might try writing that way in some future effort. Third present. I've seen it done, and it's kind of fun.
 

VVoltairx

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You don't think the narrator gets in the way of that? I've always thought that the narrator takes away some of the mystery of the mind of the protangonist by taking away some guess work into what the narrator is thinking. When a narrator says "She had lethal intentions" you can trust that is true. But when a first person POV says "I had lethal intentions" there's some leeway. You can't be sure that's what the character is actually experiencing, or just what they think they are.
 

Woollybear

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The narrator can be the protagonist in third. (Or, put the other way, the protagonist can be the narrator.) It took me a while to see it, but if writing the narration tightly from the viewpoint character's perspective, you get deep into their head despite being in third.

"She had lethal intentions"

If the narrative is close third, (deep), this will be reliable--unless the narrator has been established as unreliable. (I think first person can be unreliable too--e.g. the narrator in Lolita.) At least, in my understanding.

Check out this link (someone here posted it, I love it):

https://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/psychic-distance-what-it-is-and-how-to-use-it.html

1. It was winter of the year 1853. A large man stepped out of a doorway.
2. Henry J. Warburton had never much cared for snowstorms.
3. Henry hated snowstorms.
4. God how he hated these damn snowstorms.
5. Snow. Under your collar, down inside your shoes, freezing and plugging up your miserable soul.

That's five different ways of saying the same thing in narration. The description gets deeper with each iteration, despite being in third throughout. (Not sure if that last one is third.) It's hard to say without context, but they seem equally reliable to me.
 
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VVoltairx

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I don't think the narrator can be the protag in third. That doesn't make sense if you think about it -- unless the narrator is insane?? That would make a phenomenal twist.

We don't usually refer to ourselves in the third person unless we're doing it for humorous purposes or if we are indeed mad.
 

VVoltairx

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And I guess if the third-person narrator is unreliable, it's still not the same as doubting "I had lethal intentions" for one reason, we don't know if the character themselves is being untruthful or not. In 3rdPOV, it would be the narrator's motivations in question.
 

Elle.

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You don't think the narrator gets in the way of that? I've always thought that the narrator takes away some of the mystery of the mind of the protangonist by taking away some guess work into what the narrator is thinking. When a narrator says "She had lethal intentions" you can trust that is true. But when a first person POV says "I had lethal intentions" there's some leeway. You can't be sure that's what the character is actually experiencing, or just what they think they are.

I don't believe that 3rd POV automatically means that the narrator and MC are two different people, for me that's only true in omniscient, plus plenty of people can delude themselves and lie to themselves so MC can be unreliable in 3rd too.
 

Woollybear

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I don't think the narrator can be the protag in third. That doesn't make sense if you think about it.

We might be using the word narrator differently.

Imagine two of your characters each describing the same room. (For this purpose, the description is in narration, not dialog). One might describe the colors, the flowers in the vase, the hand-knit blanket on the back of the sofa.

The other might describe the stack of unopened bills, the crack in the window pane, the peeling wallpaper.

Same room, but the description of it depends on the character--narration in close third is dictated by character, to my understanding.

It can be a good exercise to write the same scene from a variety of viewpoints to explore this--and that can help get into closer third.
 
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VVoltairx

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3rdPOV means the narrator is doing the describing. That's why you can notice things the character doesn't. For instance, a narrator can describe something happening out of the character's line of sight. In 1stPOV, we rely solely on the narrator's senses because we're experiencing the world from their mind. If a character is upset, in first person they'll be selective about the details they notice. In third person, you can set the stage a little differently by calling attention to symbolism in the tapestries, for instance.
 

talktidy

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I am speaking only for myself here, but I think selecting a pov relates to how well the story flows from that choice.
 

Woollybear

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We are using the word differently, then. Or, as Elle says, this is getting toward omniscience.

Nowhere in my narrative, as far as I know, would something the viewpoint character does not know or cannot see be mentioned in narration.

But writing is amazingly versatile and I'm wrong often enough and might be here, as well. Your explanation doesn't fit my understanding of 3rd.
 
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VVoltairx

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It's just the difference of who's telling the story. The narrator is seperate from the character in the same way that I would be if I told a story about my friend -- which is what third person is. So if I were to tell a true story about my friend, I could embelish by adding something they didn't notice at the time. For instance, they were standing on a rug that they didn't know was covering a coffee stain. I am seperate from my friend's experience, thus I can tell the story how I want. I would be the narrator.

I used to write in third person only telling what the POV character noticed (somewhere slightly less than twenty novels). I started doing research and reading other books and I saw that you can do a lot more with third person than that and I was able to diversify my writing. Now I write by choice in first because I think it's fascinating see the story solely from the main character's flawed mind, especially when the main character is either crazy or going mad.
 

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So far, I've been using first person in what I write. It gives more immediacy, while third person is more aloof and removed.

There are styles of third person that are anything but aloof and removed, and there are forms of first that can feel pretty formal and retrospective.

I would think first person is comparatively rare. I prefer third because it gives the reader a chance to know all characters equally well...first person is limited to one character's thoughts. Some make up for that by jumping from character to character with each chapter while remaining in first person.


I don't think first person is especially rare. A high percentage of books I've read have been written in first person over the past few years. I read a lot of SF and fantasy, so it may not be the same across all genres and marketing demographics. First person is quite common in books written for teens and for older kids, for instance.

We should beware confirmation bias, though, when making assessments about which narrative approaches are most common. There's a human tendency to notice things that confirm our expectations and to gloss over or dismiss examples that don't.

Both first and third have a variety of narrative depths and styles the author can utilize. I wouldn't say one is more versatile or better than another. It's a matter of deciding how you want (or need) to tell the story you desire.

Other things can be manipulated too, such as making a story in past tense vs present, but even past tense can be manipulated to feel more immediate.

With third, there's the objective vs omniscient vs limited third decision (also decisions about the tone or voice and immersion in narrator versus being more invisible). With first, one gets to decide if the story is epistolary (told via letters or diary entries), or someone reflecting back on events from some time ago, or relating a story that is unfolding now (or a few seconds before). There are also decisions (with omniscient third and with a more reflective first) whether the narrator ever addresses the reader, as if they were in the room telling the reader a story.

Also, if in a character-focused viewpoint, such as first or limited third, one gets to decide if there is a single narrative viewpoint or more.

This is part of the fun of writing.
 
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VVoltairx

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That's third omniscient. In third limited, nothing is described that the character isn't experiencing.

Third-person omniscient is when the narrator knows everything in the book. Limited is when they only know one character. At least, that's from my research.
 

Woollybear

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Is close omniscience a thing? Put another way, is close third generally taken to mean a third limited narration style?

I'm now wondering (from this discussion) if an omniscient narrator is, almost by definition, more distant than a limited narrator.
 

lizmonster

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Third-person omniscient is when the narrator knows everything in the book. Limited is when they only know one character. At least, that's from my research.

Third limited is restricted to only what the POV character experiences. It's essentially first person with third person pronouns.

ETA: If the use of third person pronouns is what suggests a narrator to you, then perhaps this is a semantic difference. But in third limited, your "narrator" can't notice anything the character doesn't.
 
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