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Do I really need a "Villain"?

Coralynn

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I am writing a UF with two protagonists with opposing viewpoints. These are both POV characters and are certainly each other's villain, although they both think they are the hero. Do I need an overarching villain? I am at a stage in my WIP in which adding one would be relatively simple. And I may do it regardless, but is it necessary? Thanks for your thoughts.
 

Woollybear

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My thoughts are No. You need antagonizing forces in each scene and character arcs. My thoughts are also you need story structure, and deliberation within your protagonist about which way to go. Thematic coherence is nice. Layers. Like an onion. Or a parfait. Parfaits have layers. But no villains. Write a parfait.

Lots of stories don't have villains per se.
 

Coralynn

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My thoughts are No. You need antagonizing forces in each scene and character arcs. My thoughts are also you need story structure, and deliberation within your protagonist about which way to go. Thematic coherence is nice. Layers. Like an onion. Or a parfait. Parfaits have layers. But no villains. Write a parfait.

Lots of stories don't have villains per se.

Love the parfait metaphor! I felt this way too. I think without structure to hang something a little complicated on it would be confusing. I think they have to have very distinct voices as well. Traditional advice is to have a bad guy, but I think may be interesting to explore humanity in how good people can be each other's nemesis. Thank you for the feedback.
 

lilyWhite

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A protagonist typically has something in the way of what they seek. But that does not need to be an outright villain. The antagonistic force doesn't even need to be another person, but can be all kinds of conflicts both inner and external.

A story absolutely can work with a conflict centered around two opposing protagonists, without need for an external "villain" figure.
 

BPhillipYork

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I am writing a UF with two protagonists with opposing viewpoints. These are both POV characters and are certainly each other's villain, although they both think they are the hero. Do I need an overarching villain? I am at a stage in my WIP in which adding one would be relatively simple. And I may do it regardless, but is it necessary? Thanks for your thoughts.

I think you absolutely don't need a "villain" a villain is just a simple concrete way of talking about generating conflict. Consider A Piece of String by Maupassant. There's really no villain, but there's a great source of conflict. I think essentially having two protagonists, who are each other's antagonists is a great idea.
 

Enlightened

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As Good As It Gets is a great movie without a villain. The main character, Melvin Udall (played by Jack Nicholson), is an anti-hero. He has to go through internal transformation (change is the antagonist force from his happy place of being miserable to others).

Groundhog Day has the same thing. Phil's antagonist force is reliving the same day constantly.
 

Azdaphel

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Some of my preferred stories doesn't have a vilain. They have antagonistic forces with personal goal, and not everyone is completely good or bad. People are more shades of grey. For some, you are surprised to discover the good part in them.
 

Lakey

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Traditional advice is to have a bad guy,
Traditional advice about what, from whom? I mean I suppose there might be subgenres in which this is true or audiences that expect there to always be a “bad guy,” but as general advice for the creation of a story? Absolutely not. As you noted:

but I think may be interesting to explore humanity in how good people can be each other's nemesis.
Very much so. And the nemesis need not even be another person — as another posted observed:

A protagonist typically has something in the way of what they seek. But that does not need to be an outright villain. The antagonistic force doesn't even need to be another person, but can be all kinds of conflicts both inner and external.

Coralynn, I wonder, do you read much? Think back to your favorite books. Do they all have a villain or a “bad guy”? Or do some of them have the kind of conflict you are talking about in your own story, good people, maybe even people who care deeply about one another, whose needs happen to be in opposition? And do some of them have a character pitted primarily against herself, coming to grips with something inside her? I think you have the answer to this question on your bookshelf, if you look for it there.

:e2coffee:
 

Paul Lamb

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I agree with all that has been said (especially the "parfait" metaphor!). If you feel you need to add a villain, perhaps it could be one that is antagonistic to both of your characters, a foe that they could work together to overcome or that would show them they have some commonality between them. It may divert from your intended plot, but it may also be a way to draw your characters more deeply. (Then they could discuss the outcome over some parfaits at the sweet shop.)
 

Coralynn

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Thank you all for your responses. Especially for the examples that may be helpful.

Coralynn, I wonder, do you read much? Think back to your favorite books. Do they all have a villain or a “bad guy”? Or do some of them have the kind of conflict you are talking about in your own story, good people, maybe even people who care deeply about one another, whose needs happen to be in opposition? And do some of them have a character pitted primarily against herself, coming to grips with something inside her? I think you have the answer to this question on your bookshelf, if you look for it there.

:e2coffee:

I do read a lot, although I haven't been as much lately. I think the type of books I read typically have a monster or bad guy (lots of fantasy and horror). I do like grey characters and I'm trying to explore this in my own writing. Since I'm not well read in a lot of other genres, I really appreciate the diverse experiences others have had with their favorites. I think you have a good point in that I could use to read outside of my comfort zone. Thank you very much for your response.


I agree with all that has been said (especially the "parfait" metaphor!). If you feel you need to add a villain, perhaps it could be one that is antagonistic to both of your characters, a foe that they could work together to overcome or that would show them they have some commonality between them. It may divert from your intended plot, but it may also be a way to draw your characters more deeply. (Then they could discuss the outcome over some parfaits at the sweet shop.)

This is kind of what I'm thinking. The idea of two people with vastly different points of view being able to come together without compromising themselves. It's early still we'll see if I can effectively pull it off. Thank you for your thoughts.
 

indianroads

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I am writing a UF with two protagonists with opposing viewpoints. These are both POV characters and are certainly each other's villain, although they both think they are the hero. Do I need an overarching villain? I am at a stage in my WIP in which adding one would be relatively simple. And I may do it regardless, but is it necessary? Thanks for your thoughts.

Unless your character is a psychopath they will always think they are doing the right thing.

To answer your question directly; NO, you don't need a villain. The only requirement is that you have a story to tell - and even that is malleable to some extent. There was once a book that won all kinds of awards, and the plot was only the MC leaving work, going to the dry cleaner to pick up his shirts, and returning to work.

Find a story and tell it well, and just let your characters be who they are - good or bad depending on their circumstance and frame of reference.
 

Thomas Vail

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Traditional advice is to have a bad guy,
It isn't.

But what you do need is something, person, thing, place, whatever that interferes with them getting what they want and they have to strive against. It very well could be another person who isn't a bad guy, but whose own goals and motivations puts them in direct conflict with the first character.

The protagonist wants to make a sandwich. It would be weird if there was a bad guy in the kitchen specifically to stop them from making that sandwich. BUT it would be perfectly ordinary if they were all out of bread. So they go to the store to buy bread, AND THEN...
 

Dan Rhys

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Conflict of some kind is all you need, and it sounds like you have it. I've written things that contain a villain, but the main source of conflict is between two 'good guys' with clashing interests.
 

Coralynn

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Thank you all for your comments. I’m still not sure if I’ll go the villain route or not but it’s nice to feel like I have the freedom not to.
 

Roxxsmom

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No, not every story has a villain, or to put it another way, a primary antagonist or obstacle who is a person of malign intent working against the protagonist. The general consensus is that a story needs conflict and obstacles for the protagonist to overcome, but they needn't be presented by a villain.

To boil it down, a plot could have a person working against the protagonist, or presenting as an obstacle, and many do. But that person doesn't even have to be a classic villain. They could be a decent person who simply has different goals, or even be an ally who gets in the way. Or heck, the protagonist could be the villain, in fact, but the story has the reader rooting for them anyway.

Or the protagonist can be their own obstacle. It could be because they have an internal conflict, or a serious flaw or weakness that protagonist possesses, or even a fear that stops them from doing what they must until they find a way to overcome it. Most tales have inner conflict of some kind, but it's possible for this to be the primary focus.

The obstacle could also be something "natural." It could be a animal or creature of some kind, or an event like a natural disaster or plague, a war that isn't against an evil empire or dark lord but still serves to keep the protagonist from achieving their goals. Or the obstacle could simply be a specific set of circumstances (imagine a romance where a class difference between the protagonists is a major obstacle to their forming a relationship), or even the simple vagaries of bad luck.

Obstacles and conflicts can be presented by combinations of these factors too.
 
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indianroads

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A villain is usually someone that is acting on motivations that are contrary to those of your main character. Both parties are acting in a way that promotes their beliefs - often in novels these actions involve either life and death or love and loss.

A MC like Dudley Do-Right or a villain such as Snidely Whiplash (and ANY character that mimics Nell Fenwick) makes a novel exceedingly dull. Perhaps surprisingly, I put Steven King's novel IT in this category - the writing is good, which saves it IMO. The clown / alien never had a clear motive in my view - he was just there to do mayhem.

it's like Schroedingers villain.
:roll: and what of Schroedinger's mouse?

I prefer to read (and write) stories where characters act in their own best interest which are contrary to one another, OR they are acting in a way they believe will promote a greater good for all (but not necessarily the MC). This sort of story allows us to look at the world around us in a different way.

Other an antagonist, your MC can also struggle with events / circumstances that puts their life or way of life in peril. Surviving in a dystopian world could be an example.
 

indianroads

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Yesterday I finished my first rough outline of my next novel, and this morning just realized that I have no antagonist. I'm completely fine with that. MC and those around him (some of which hate him, and they fight a bit) are being driven by forces 'off stage' or 'out of camera range' and are all struggling to cope and survive.

My first novel, Dark Side of Joy, was the same. A young person taken from criminal parents and forced through the 'justice' system that learns to survive on his own. Snidely Whiplash is not necessary many times, and often the most insidious forces are imposed by society or circumstance.
 

Curlz

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...this morning just realized that I have no antagonist. ...
...
...often the most insidious forces are imposed by society or circumstance.
And where does it say the "antagonist" has to be a person? :Jump:
 

indianroads

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And where does it say the "antagonist" has to be a person? :Jump:

Nowhere. I chuckled when I noticed the lack of a villain this morning.

I've never really thought about this subject before - stories have conflict, which can spring from a person or an event. When I do have a person in opposition I try to show them as having what seems to be good motives that just happen to be in opposition to my MC's objective. There is one notable exception though. I once wrote a psychotic nurse character that got her jollies from torturing people by inserting long needles between their toes and doing other horrible things. Sometimes it's fun to write a character that's completely off the rails.
 

Gateway

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I am writing a UF with two protagonists with opposing viewpoints. These are both POV characters and are certainly each other's villain, although they both think they are the hero. Do I need an overarching villain? I am at a stage in my WIP in which adding one would be relatively simple. And I may do it regardless, but is it necessary? Thanks for your thoughts.

You need opposing viewpoints and you have that so it's fine. You can view them as two protagonists or each other's antagonist. There's a difference between an antagonist and a villain, it's theme related. A good film to study the difference is Dirty Harry (1971).
 

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You need conflict. That's your "villain". Without conflict, you have no story.
 

Juggernaut

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I am writing a UF with two protagonists with opposing viewpoints. These are both POV characters and are certainly each other's villain, although they both think they are the hero. Do I need an overarching villain? I am at a stage in my WIP in which adding one would be relatively simple. And I may do it regardless, but is it necessary? Thanks for your thoughts.

Hi.

I think as long as there is conflict that you don't need to add anyone else.

My 2 cents,
Juggernaut