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Postal copyright :

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Iain2

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Good afternoon All…

Firstly, please forgive me if the following is an everyday practice, or, if the subject has already been thrashed out elsewhere.

I’ve often found myself protecting things over the years and I know for a fact that it’s cost me a pretty penny. So, when a friend published a genealogy book recently, I became interested in how she went about protecting the content. I was surprised by her reply !

“Simple really and nearly free” she replied ! “I photocopied the whole book then sent it to myself using a registered envelope, accompanied with a signed PROOF of RECEPTION. The envelope must be well closed using strong sticky-tape and in places, signed over the tape and envelope. This is done in order to show that the contents have never been tampered with since the date of posting.
The packet then arrives the next day; just sign the reception ticket…, BUT NEVER OPEN IT”!

The legal philosophy here is that if by any misfortune she finds that someone has copied the contents of her book, then she can visit a Justice of the Peace, (‘notaire’) ask him/her to open the envelope and confirm the contents have not been tampered with since the postal date.
This then becomes a legal document with which she can contact a solicitor and take the issue to court.

Ever since, when sending ‘precious’ papers to suspect friends, I now use this system. (usually two or three pages) I have three of them so far gathering dust and I’ll probably have a few more before the end of the year.
So, to my question… Is this a global strategy and does it have any flaws ?

I’ve noticed something on this Forum where a % of members are reticent to go into details about what they’ve written.
Using this system could put writers at ease and more to the point, would certainly make thieves think twice before stealing other people’s precious work.

Points of view would be appreciated:

PS I only have the legal explanations of the system in French:
http://www.wiki-compta.com/lettre_recommandee_avec_avis_de_reception_en_france.php
 

Bufty

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Posting it to yourself is totally pointless as far as I'm aware.

You have copyright the moment you commit your writing to paper, computer-whatever. You don't have to do anything to obtain copyright. The 'evidence' that you wrote it is there in all your notes and scribbles and records.

If someone really wants to pinch your work they will do so but it's extremely unlikely. Thieves want money for as little effort as possible and stealing your (or anyone else's) writings is not an easy path to riches.
 
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Marian Perera

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The legal philosophy here is that if by any misfortune she finds that someone has copied the contents of her book, then she can visit a Justice of the Peace, (‘notaire’) ask him/her to open the envelope and confirm the contents have not been tampered with since the postal date.
This then becomes a legal document with which she can contact a solicitor and take the issue to court.

Ever since, when sending ‘precious’ papers to suspect friends, I now use this system. (usually two or three pages) I have three of them so far gathering dust and I’ll probably have a few more before the end of the year.
So, to my question… Is this a global strategy and does it have any flaws ?

From this article on copyright :

Writers are often told that “poor man’s copyright”–sealing a copy of their work in an envelope, mailing it to themselves, and retaining the envelope unopened–is a reasonable alternative to official copyright registration, since it proves both ownership and the date of creation.

However, while that sealed envelope might possibly be useful in a court case (though more likely not, since poor man’s copyright is easy to fake: you could have mailed the envelope empty, and filled and sealed it later), it does not provide legal protection in the USA, where official registration is a prerequisite for filing an infringement suit. Don’t waste your time on poor man’s copyright.


I’ve noticed something on this Forum where a % of members are reticent to go into details about what they’ve written.
Using this system could put writers at ease and more to the point, would certainly make thieves think twice before stealing other people’s precious work.

Do thieves generally stop to find out if someone has mailed a copy of their manuscript to themselves before stealing the work or the idea?
 

Iain2

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Posting it to yourself is totally pointless as far as I'm aware.

You have copyright the moment you commit your writing to paper, computer-whatever. You don't have to do anything to obtain copyright. The 'evidence' that you wrote it is there in all your notes and scribbles and records.

If someone really wants to pinch your work they will do so but it's extremely unlikely. Thieves want money for as little effort as possible and stealing your (or anyone else's) writings is not an easy path to riches.


Bufty…, Hi !

You don’t make sense…, otherwise the copyright industry would have nothing to do.
Simply writing something down on a piece of paper does not make it legal.

Also, “if someone really wants to pinch your work etc…” That too ! I’ve been on this site for only a few weeks and I’ve seen numerous members crying crocodile tears because their work has been copied/stolen by ‘speed writers.’

Yours Aye…, Iain.
 

Iain2

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Hi Marian…, and thanks.
So that’s what it’s called ! Not surprised !

First point: “As you say”! Convincing a Justice of the Peace that the envelope has not been tampered is the fundamental aspect of the system. As said, if the packet looks as if it had been tampered with, then it’s obvious that the ‘notaire’ will never accept the situation.
Of course…, there is another aspect to this situation and that’s the fact that in general, the Notaire knows me. (‘knowing that I am an honest man’ :)) He will then react in accordance !

Second point… One cannot resend the same or another envelope or different contents; because it’s the date on the original ‘proof of reception’ ticket that would be used in court.

…, Iain.
 
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PostHuman

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Bufty…, Hi !

You don’t make sense…, otherwise the copyright industry would have nothing to do.
Simply writing something down on a piece of paper does not make it legal.

Within the US, this is indeed how copyright vests, from the moment your work is fixed in a tangible form it is protected for the author's life plus 70 years.

EDIT: not sure about Belgium, but most EU countries are signatory to the Berne convention and TRIPS
 
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CameronJohnston

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Copyright is automatic and entirely free under international law as soon as you start create any original content - however, if your copyright is infringed you may still need to provide evidence you created it and not somebody else.
 

lizmonster

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Simply writing something down on a piece of paper does not make it legal.

Actually, it does.

I’ve been on this site for only a few weeks and I’ve seen numerous members crying crocodile tears because their work has been copied/stolen by ‘speed writers.’

1) Link, please. I know of a few cases of members suffering plagiarism, but I've heard nothing about theft by "speed writers."
2) If someone stole my work, I assure you my tears would be quite sincere. So maybe back off the snark.
 

Bufty

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What 'copyright industry' are you talking about?

Writing/placing something original down on paper -or typing it onto your hard drive - gives you the automatic copyright to whatever it is that you have written down.

You can subsequently 'register' that copyright, if you wish, to give you certain rights in any subsequent action concerning copyright theft, but that doesn't detract from the fact that - without doing anything special at all - you have copyright immediately you commit your writing to paper or other type of record.

Kindest,
Bufty

ETA- I may have missed them, but I can't say I have noticed 'numerous' posts here of folk crying 'crocodile tears' or even reporting the theft of their work by 'speed writers'.

Bufty…, Hi !

You don’t make sense…, otherwise the copyright industry would have nothing to do.
Simply writing something down on a piece of paper does not make it legal.

Also, “if someone really wants to pinch your work etc…” That too ! I’ve been on this site for only a few weeks and I’ve seen numerous members crying crocodile tears because their work has been copied/stolen by ‘speed writers.’

Yours Aye…, Iain.
 
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Marian Perera

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First point: “As you say”! Convincing a Justice of the Peace that the envelope has not been tampered is the fundamental aspect of the system. As said, if the packet looks as if it had been tampered with, then it’s obvious that the ‘notaire’ will never accept the situation.

How does the "notaire" know the package has not been tampered with?

Second point… One cannot resend the same or another envelope or different contents; because it’s the date on the original ‘proof of reception’ ticket that would be used in court.

Why not just mail an empty envelope to yourself to get a date-stamped envelope, and put the manuscript inside later?

Also, to repeat the question I asked earlier : Do thieves generally stop to find out if someone has mailed a copy of their manuscript to themselves before stealing the work or the idea?

I really want to know this. How do we all make sure thieves know that we've mailed copies of our manuscripts to ourselves, to prevent the thieves from stealing from us? Should we say in our signatures here, "I have mailed sealed, signed copies of my manuscripts to myself"? How would thieves know we're not bluffing?
 

NinjaFingers

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In the US, you have copyright the second you finish a work.

However, you will have a major disadvantage in any court case if you do not register the work, which you should do when it is published. If you are working with a publisher, they will take care of it.

If you are indie, you will need to do it yourself. And yeah, it costs a bit, but it could save you a lot in the long term. If you have print books, you are required to deposit two copies, which are kept by the Library of Congress.

Poor man's copyright used to be a thing. It isn't any more.
 

cornflake

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Yes, writing something does convey legal copyright.

The lawyers who work on copyright claims make a living because you have to defend your copyright if someone violates it.
 

Iain2

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What 'copyright industry' are you talking about?

Writing/placing something original down on paper -or typing it onto your hard drive - gives you the automatic copyright to whatever it is that you have written down.

You can subsequently 'register' that copyright, if you wish, to give you certain rights in any subsequent action concerning copyright theft, but that doesn't detract from the fact that - without doing anything special at all - you have copyright immediately you commit your writing to paper or other type of record.

Kindest,
Bufty

ETA- I may have missed them, but I can't say I have noticed 'numerous' posts here of folk crying 'crocodile tears' or even reporting the theft of their work by 'speed writers'.

----------------

Hi Bufty… Lol…, your name brings back memories of my 10 years in the Scots Guards;

OK ! Two parts !
“Writing/placing something original…, etc” As such, I buy a best seller today, choose a page, write it down on toilet paper…, then take the Author to court because he/she has copied my work. Hmmm…

“Subsequently register…, etc” Meaning that you are registering your work ! As such, I totally agree ! Of course…, what’s the price ?

“Anything special at all…, etc” = ‘Postal copyright.’
 

Marian Perera

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“Writing/placing something original…, etc” As such, I buy a best seller today, choose a page, write it down on toilet paper…, then take the Author to court because he/she has copied my work. Hmmm…

How do you prove that your toilet paper page was written before the author wrote his or her book?
 

PostHuman

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As for theft of basic plot ideas or concepts etc, this is not copyright infringement. Infringement of another author's work concerns the expression (execution), not the underlying idea. It's about whether the overall look and feel of the two works is substantially similar and whether there was access to the allegedly infringed work. Does the second work have the same tone, setting, descriptions, dialogue, characters, pace, etc?

IMHO brilliant ideas are easy to come by, but it requires tremendous effort and skill to execute even a mediocre novel. It's also common for different people to come up with similar ideas. Not much we can do about this tbh other than write something every day and enjoy the long process of becoming skilled at writing novels
 
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AW Admin

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Bufty…, Hi !

You don’t make sense…, otherwise the copyright industry would have nothing to do.
Simply writing something down on a piece of paper does not make it legal. .

Actually, it does in the U.S. and most of the world via the Berne Convention. You as a creator own the rights to anything you create from the moment you start to produce the art.

See the FAQ: Copyright.

I am posting this not only as a professional copyright expert witness, but as a professional writer, a DMCA officer, and the Admin of this site:

Poorman's Copyright is bullshit. It's too easily dismissed and too easily messed with. Don't bother.

If you want to protect your rights in a court of law, archive your drafts, edit notes, and hardcopy. Once you have a publisher or before you self publish, you can register copyright, at which point your potential damage fees increase, but it doesn't really offer a whole lot more in terms of protecting or proving your rights.

Copyright cases, if they go to court, require convincing a jury, so archives of notes, outlines and drafts, particularly with your hand-written notes, are useful.
 
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AW Admin

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Yes, writing something does convey legal copyright.

The lawyers who work on copyright claims make a living because you have to defend your copyright if someone violates it.


This.

You need to prove that it is original, and that you are the creator. This means convincing a jury. This means being able to document your creative process, and answer difficult questions about how you created it and why you made the creative decisions you made (i.e. inside knowledge possessed by the creator).

It also requires that the work be unique. Ideas aren't covered by copyright; unique expression of those ideas is.

Note that a work that isn't published or under contract, unless it's by someone in a very limited class (best selling author, famous person, etc.) usually has very little value to anyone other than the creator.
 

Iain2

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How does the "notaire" know the package has not been tampered with?

Hi Marian…

You are drifting from two legal points… (see URL)
Firstly, it is very easy to see if adhesive tape has been torn away. (without going into details) If there is the slightest sign that the envelope has been tampered with then the Notaire will automatically refuse to provide the necessary legal papers. In addition…, this is how it works in Belgium/Europe. (which is progressively becoming logical the more I progress with this thread)

Secondly !
“Do thieves generally stop to find out…, etc” That is the general idea !! If you don’t know it, then thieves certainly don’t know that they could find themselves in a court room because the work they’ve stolen is protected. And as a consequence…, will pay the price !

Teatime here in Bruxelles…, back soon.
 

Bufty

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You say-
This is how it works in Belgium/Euprope.


This is how 'what' works? You mean it is used in 'situations' - not necessarily to do with copyright, and it is hoped that if it were used in a copyright case it would work. Yes? Or do you have a reference to give us where it did work in a recent copyright infringement case in Belgium/Europe. In any event the envelope's content would surely only show proof of possession - not ownership of copyright.

Your second point isn't worth a response beyond saying that anybody who knowingly steals anything knows they may eventually end up in court.

How does the "notaire" know the package has not been tampered with?

Hi Marian…

You are drifting from two legal points… (see URL)
Firstly, it is very easy to see if adhesive tape has been torn away. (without going into details) If there is the slightest sign that the envelope has been tampered with then the Notaire will automatically refuse to provide the necessary legal papers. In addition…, this is how it works in Belgium/Europe.
(which is progressively becoming logical the more I progress with this thread)?????

Secondly !
“Do thieves generally stop to find out…, etc” That is the general idea !! If you don’t know it, then thieves certainly don’t know that they could find themselves in a court room because the work they’ve stolen is protected. And as a consequence…, will pay the price !

Teatime here in Bruxelles…, back soon.
 
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Friendly Frog

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The others are not wrong, Iain. Have a stroll through this government link, you'll see the same thing is law here in Belgium. I know you're in another region but I'm fairly sure that stuff is still federal. (I trust, since you are in Brussel, you know French, it does not appear to be available in English.)

As I said before (I think) you have a few out-dated ideas about the writing industry you may want to let go when several people try to inform you otherwise.

What exactly is a speed writer?
Maybe the CopyPasteCris-case gave him the idea? That plagiarist would have looked like one speedy writer with all the books she copied and published under her own name during a rather short window of time.
 

Ari Meermans

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???????????????

Did you not follow the link?

Copyright itself does not depend on official procedures. According to the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, literary and artistic works are protected without any formalities in the countries party to that Convention. A created work is considered protected by copyright as soon as it exists.
 
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