Sept 12 Democratic Party Debate: Winners and Losers

I thought Cory and Beto both had an excellent night. I'd say they tied as the winners. Buttigieg and Bernie also performed well, IMO. Warren was evasive and vague. Biden was constantly struggling to find the right words. Castro came off as unnecessarily mean.

I need to watch the whole thing before I let my opinions settle.

BUT:

-Why is criticizing Joe Biden on the debate stage a cardinal sin? I don't get it.
-Yang's bribery gimmick is stupid. And I'm a fan of UBI. I'm done with Yang, he's got good ideas but I'm just gonna ignore him now.
-They didn't give Kamala enough time. (Update: she got as much time as Booker, so YMMV).
-Klobuchar was solid AF.

Bernie's schtick is getting old, Biden looks and sounds old, (and deep-down racist), Beto got a post-debate death threat from a Texas legislator, and Cory has too much heart for the current political climate of this country. Nothing swayed me from my love for Warren, Harris, Booker, and Castro, centrist scolding not withstanding

Kjbartolotta said:

-Why is criticizing Joe Biden on the debate stage a cardinal sin? I don't get it.

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Who says it is? Not being argumentative; I don’t watch TV news and tend to read overseas media more than US now.

I’m really torn about Biden. I don’t like him. I think he’s too old, and mediocre. I think there’s very little “there” there. I fear that if he’s the nominee, young voters will stay home. I fear a repeat of 2016, minus the misogyny.

OTOH, centrist-leaning voters really seem to like him. I personally don’t get why — I guess because “don’t rock the boat” appeals, even though the status quo is a dumpster fire for so many? — but if that means he can sway enough to vote Democrat, then I’m all for that. Four more years of *rump is something I really fear.

Introversion said:

Who says it is? Not being argumentative; I don’t watch TV news and tend to read overseas media more than US now.

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Pete kinda came back at Castro for criticizing Joe and the post-game analysis seems to be that Castro signed his death warrant by going after him. Not the first time we've seen that kinda pearl clutching over Joe, even tho this was supposed to be the Biden/Warren battle royale. MHO.

Joe had some weird moments but I don't think he did terribly from what I've seen so far. But I only got to see the end and some assorted clips.

Introversion said:

Who says it is? Not being argumentative; I don’t watch TV news and tend to read overseas media more than US now.

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There was a pundit-consensus that he was "mean" because he went after Biden, along with a pretty harmonizing chorus on TV, in social media, and in print media wrap-ups that this would tank his candidacy.

ElaineA said:

There was a pundit-consensus that he was "mean" because he went after Biden, along with a pretty harmonizing chorus on TV, in social media, and in print media wrap-ups that this would tank his candidacy.

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I'm not sure I *loved* the way Castro went after him, btw, but it fell well below the threshold for 'indecency' for me and the privilege of having his honor defended seems reserved for Biden only.

Okay, thanks, that's pretty much what I expected it was going to be about.

So, I sort of get aspects of "don't criticize". You don't want your attacks to hand knives to the other party. And you don't want a circular firing squad of Democrats who, in the eyes of the electorate, are all ruined and not worth voting for as a result of attacks on each other.

OTOH, this is supposed to be an actual contest. IMHO if you can't fend off knives from your own party, how the heck do you think you can fend off the much sharper/bigger/badder/bullshittier knives the other party is sharpening for you?? If Biden needs to be coddled from the elbows of his fellow Democrats, then he really, really is unprepared to get up in front of cameras on a debate-stage with *rump.

Introversion said:

Okay, thanks, that's pretty much what I expected it was going to be about.

So, I sort of get aspects of "don't criticize". You don't want your attacks to hand knives to the other party. And you don't want a circular firing squad of Democrats who, in the eyes of the electorate, are all ruined and not worth voting for as a result of attacks on each other.

OTOH, this is supposed to be an actual contest. IMHO if you can't fend off knives from your own party, how the heck do you think you can fend off the much sharper/bigger/badder/bullshittier knives the other party is sharpening for you?? If Biden needs to be coddled from the elbows of his fellow Democrats, then he really, really is unprepared to get up in front of cameras on a debate-stage with *rump.

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Joe hasn't exactly been benign and genteel himself so far.

He *isn't* prepared to get up on the stage with Trump. He looks frail, lost, and like his heart's not really in it up there. And when the moderators trot out his terrible old statements, he looks like a deer in the headlights. What's going to happen when Trump and the GOP start targeting him and only him like they did AOC on the Sinclair stations last night? (WHICH, by the way, was DISGUSTING.) I'm sorry, but "I was Obama's VP!" just isn't good enough for me.

(That said, I stand by my pledge to vote for whoever--as long as it's not Gabbard or Williams. Please don't make me pass *that* test.)

My personal thoughts on the uproar over Castro's "attack"....

I think many consider it went beyond policy and into personal territory and thus was over the line.

I thought it was up to the line, but not over.

I thought Castro’s attack missed the mark. It didn’t come off as disrespectful to me, but of course your mileage may vary. I, too, wondered why only Biden’s honor gets defended in these things. I also think if you’re going to go after the front runner, you better not miss. Castro had a bad night, despite my not being particularly upset by what he tried to say.

I thought Biden seemed to be spending a lot of time searching for the right words, in particular after he was asked about reparations. Wow, but that answer was messy and difficult for me to parse.

Other than that, I thought the other eight candidates did quite well, and that last night’s debate didn’t really move the needle one way or the other.

I was a little conflicted about Joe's dig at Bernie, because, on one hand, it illustrates my point about Joe getting a pass, on the other, I always appreciate digs against Bernie and doubt that anyone but Biden will be allowed to make them. And Bernie's particular brand of socialism still sounds like bog-standard neoliberalism to me.

Do these candidates really understand Medicare? It's not simple, not free, and doesn't cover everything. I just received my annual Medicare booklet explaining how it works. It's 120 big pages long. You have to buy additional private insurance if you want to cover what Medicare doesn't and for prescription drug coverage. Will we be able to buy the additional coverage if we have “Medicare for All”? Our supplemental policies cost about $3000 per year per person.

I didn't want to see any of them going after each other and I thought Biden was a jerk when he made sure to call Sanders a socialist, and Biden clearly had it planned to say he was for Obama's health care while Warren was for Bernie's. He could have just said he was for saving the ACA and mentioned problems with the Medicare for all plans without making sure to criticize Warren.

Warren was better off the debate stage explaining her Medicare for all. I agree with her position on eliminating private insurance but it's an easily attacked position. The GOP is very good at fear mongering and Warren's attack on a number of corporations is rife with problems. It's how you sell it and she didn't come off that well again. I keep going on and off about Warren.

Which is a bit of a contradiction because Buttigieg with his assault weapons ban doesn't worry me as much. That death threat is exactly what one would expect given the white supremacists Trump flushed out of the woodwork.

The difference in my bizarre world view: the white supremacists were already going to vote for Trump, while Warren might be scaring away the middle that resists big change. [Lots of reasons Trump won unrelated to the norm.]


Booker, Klobuchar and Harris all did well in my opinion. Castro is going to be roasted for a week because he wrongly said Biden changed his story.

That's eight, who were the other two candidates?


Oh yeah, how could I forget Yang's free pony for all contest.

That's nine.

Whoops, I forgot O'Rourke. I can't remember what he said. I think I tune him out because I have some biases.

Gregg said:

Do these candidates really understand Medicare? It's not simple, not free, and doesn't cover everything. I just received my annual Medicare booklet explaining how it works. It's 120 big pages long. You have to buy additional private insurance if you want to cover what Medicare doesn't and for prescription drug coverage. Will we be able to buy the additional coverage if we have “Medicare for All”? Our supplemental policies cost about $3000 per year per person.

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You have a good point. Medicare for a lot of us, maybe most, is a combination of public and private insurance. I too have a supplemental.

Did any of the moderators ask about this? They're never very prepared.

Thinking a bit more about this, is Warren even ready when someone points out to her Medicare is half private insurance?

ElaineA said:

He *isn't* prepared to get up on the stage with Trump. He looks frail, lost, and like his heart's not really in it up there. And when the moderators trot out his terrible old statements, he looks like a deer in the headlights. What's going to happen when Trump and the GOP start targeting him and only him like they did AOC on the Sinclair stations last night? (WHICH, by the way, was DISGUSTING.) I'm sorry, but "I was Obama's VP!" just isn't good enough for me.

(That said, I stand by my pledge to vote for whoever--as long as it's not Gabbard or Williams. Please don't make me pass *that* test.)

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It's much too easy to get Biden riled up and defensive.

Introversion said:

...
OTOH, centrist-leaning voters really seem to like him. I personally don’t get why — I guess because “don’t rock the boat” appeals, even though the status quo is a dumpster fire for so many? — but if that means he can sway enough to vote Democrat, then I’m all for that. Four more years of *rump is something I really fear.

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Or it just looks like they do because the other candidates have split votes. If you group them, like Warren and Sanders, then Biden's middle is not a majority after all.

Biden has the 'familiar name early on' majority. The 'not as well known but getting there' still have potential break-outs.

Kjbartolotta said:

I need to watch the whole thing before I let my opinions settle.

BUT:

-Why is criticizing Joe Biden on the debate stage a cardinal sin? I don't get it.

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It wouldn't have been except Castro said Biden changed his story and in the instant replay it didn't look like Biden had.


They didn't give a lot of people enough time. It's the unfortunate news media business model. Scandal and controversy sell, educated and informative don't. The media set this up to be some Biden-Warren battle and they pushed for it. Biden even came prepared to battle Warren as if the contest was down to those two. I find Biden to be a tad too arrogant about his front-runner status. I think it sets him up to be defensive when anyone dares to challenge him.

MaeZe said:

It wouldn't have been except Castro said Biden changed his story and in the instant replay it didn't look like Biden had.

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I've seen this refuted more than once. Of course, I'm seeing the fiddliness of the distinction as well so idk.

MaeZe said:

I didn't want to see any of them going after each other and I thought Biden was a jerk when he made sure to call Sanders a socialist...

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It was definitely a jerk move, no question. Biden's been a jerk. I didn't take issue because Bernie is the most problematic candidate on that stage. Warren won't touch him because she doesn't want to alienate Sanders supporters (I don't think this is wise of her, but get it), Kamala would have every white progressive pundit #cancel her if she tried, and everyone else is fighting enough to get their message out that why should they bother.

MaeZe said:

Whoops, I forgot O'Rourke. I can't remember what he said. I think I tune him out because I have some biases.

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I've weirdly warmed up to Beto, but still not sure what it would take to convince me he needs to be in this race.

BTW, y'all know she's my gal, but the best moment for me was not​ Kamala's opening statement (which was rad) but Warren's reaction to it.

Beto is the one warming up. He's cut the overly-scripted, "follow the old playbook" stiffness and gone back to what got him on the national stage to begin with. His skateboarding punk rocker reality, and it's a much more palatable persona to listen to.

(Also, @maeze, it's Beto who wants to ban AKs, not Butteg...Pete--I can never spell his name!)

Kjbartolotta said:

I've seen this refuted more than once. Of course, I'm seeing the fiddliness of the distinction as well so idk.

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Serves me right for going straight to the instant replay analysis.

Politifact calls it mostly false (your links). Seems more and more trivial the more I look at it.