Sept 12 Democratic Party Debate: Winners and Losers

Kjbartolotta

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:Soapbox:

Whatever the outcome of this election cycle (and there are several I'd be giddy over), I think I'm tearing up my 'Progressive' card. I still support progressive policies and, all things being equal, would take the progressive candidate over the moderate one any day. And I still believe we need leaders with a bold progressive agenda or else nothing changes. But I'm tapping out. Started back in 2016 and took me a lot of mental gymnastics to keep from realizing it.

Too much word-salad ideology, too much willingness to throw others into the gears for an outcome that doesn't always seen feasible. Too much paternalism, hostility towards alternatives, and, quite frankly, grift. Not just a Twitter thing, I feel like I've Red Pilled and now I see it everywhere, and especially with all those 'smart boys' in the MSM and on reliably liberal web journals. Don't expect anyone else to be where I'm at, and if you don't resemble these remarks then I don't mean you.
 

Introversion

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I’ve stopped hoping for a perfect match on my desires & needs. I vote in primaries for those closest to it, but my bar is pretty low in the main elections. “Lesser of evils” is better than the worst of evils.
 

Lyv

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I've been on the fence as part of my vow to #VoteLikeBlackWomen. Figured I'd keep supporting the candidates the Black women I know and follow on social media and a clear winner would emerge. But it's stayed a split. Some white women I know who support Warren and some who support Harris steadfastly refuse to believe I could possibly know Black women who support one or the other, but it's been true, and I can't see how it's that hard to believe since that's also what I'm seeing in endorsements and at rallies.

But I'm now officially in hospice to this is my time to make a stand for my candidate, for one over all the others and I have no reservations about strongly supporting Kamala Harris. I have many, many reasons. It feels good to commit, as I am usually not one to dither. Won't slam the others, especially since part of my heart will always be with Warren, who is also excellent. I want Castro and Booker in the mix, and feel particularly strongly about the former. Will donate, counter attacks, and on the off chance I get to vote in 2020, will #VoteLikeBlackWomen.
 

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:Too much word-salad ideology, too much willingness to throw others into the gears for an outcome that doesn't always seen feasible. Too much paternalism, hostility towards alternatives, and, quite frankly, grift. Not just a Twitter thing, I feel like I've Red Pilled and now I see it everywhere, and especially with all those 'smart boys' in the MSM and on reliably liberal web journals. Don't expect anyone else to be where I'm at, and if you don't resemble these remarks then I don't mean you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a refusal to blindly attach oneself to any movement or ideology. Tribalism is a very human tendency, but I don't think it's helpful in politics, at least not when it leads to people getting so focused on relatively minor differences they forget about the much greater number of things they have in common.

I think most progressives share the same goals overall, but we can still differ on details and on the best way to implement these goals. That's okay, or it should be. No one gets everything they want in politics.

I really don't want to see the Left become an angry and intolerant mirror of what the Right has become.
 

Kjbartolotta

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I don't think there's anything wrong with a refusal to blindly attach oneself to any movement or ideology. Tribalism is a very human tendency, but I don't think it's helpful in politics, at least not when it leads to people getting so focused on relatively minor differences they forget about the much greater number of things they have in common.

I think most progressives share the same goals overall, but we can still differ on details and on the best way to implement these goals. That's okay, or it should be. No one gets everything they want in politics.

I really don't want to see the Left become an angry and intolerant mirror of what the Right has become.

Yeah, I was in a mood and should walk it back to say I'm not implying I see the Left become what the Right has becoming or anything close to it, or that I'm seeing something different in the political equilibrium than what's always existed. And I think it's very hard for any portion of the electorate to keep a cool head right now. I won't put too fine a point on where I see the biggest problem among progressives right now, but a lot of the activities of Sanders and his fanbase has alienated me, and I can't help but wonder if there's a larger issue within our own house.

I've been on the fence as part of my vow to #VoteLikeBlackWomen. Figured I'd keep supporting the candidates the Black women I know and follow on social media and a clear winner would emerge. But it's stayed a split. Some white women I know who support Warren and some who support Harris steadfastly refuse to believe I could possibly know Black women who support one or the other, but it's been true, and I can't see how it's that hard to believe since that's also what I'm seeing in endorsements and at rallies.

But I'm now officially in hospice to this is my time to make a stand for my candidate, for one over all the others and I have no reservations about strongly supporting Kamala Harris. I have many, many reasons. It feels good to commit, as I am usually not one to dither. Won't slam the others, especially since part of my heart will always be with Warren, who is also excellent. I want Castro and Booker in the mix, and feel particularly strongly about the former. Will donate, counter attacks, and on the off chance I get to vote in 2020, will #VoteLikeBlackWomen.

You know I like her and I recall we had a conversation a while back where I was skeptical, regardless of the points made I'd like to thank you for the way you engaged with me. :)

And love to you no matter where you're leaning.
 

Lyv

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Yeah, I was in a mood and should walk it back to say I'm not implying I see the Left become what the Right has becoming or anything close to it, or that I'm seeing something different in the political equilibrium than what's always existed. And I think it's very hard for any portion of the electorate to keep a cool head right now. I won't put too fine a point on where I see the biggest problem among progressives right now, but a lot of the activities of Sanders and his fanbase has alienated me, and I can't help but wonder if there's a larger issue within our own house.



You know I like her and I recall we had a conversation a while back where I was skeptical, regardless of the points made I'd like to thank you for the way you engaged with me. :)

And love to you no matter where you're leaning.
Thank you! What a lovely response. I like several candidates, so I would have happily voted for several, and I so want to do the right thing and make some difference now. Feels kind of like I'm running out of a burning building everyone else is trapped in and there are several things to do that would save everyone, but I have to figure out the why and how and prioritize. That's what now feels like. And love back to you!
 

Gregg

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I don't think there's anything wrong with a refusal to blindly attach oneself to any movement or ideology. Tribalism is a very human tendency, but I don't think it's helpful in politics, at least not when it leads to people getting so focused on relatively minor differences they forget about the much greater number of things they have in common.

I think most progressives share the same goals overall, but we can still differ on details and on the best way to implement these goals. That's okay, or it should be. No one gets everything they want in politics.

I really don't want to see the Left become an angry and intolerant mirror of what the Right has become.

There is intolerance and anger on all sides. Here's an article which discusses the equality of intolerance among many groups.
To quote a portion of it:
"These findings confirm that conservatives, liberals, the religious and the nonreligious are each prejudiced against those with opposing views. But surprisingly, each group is about equally prejudiced. While liberals might like to think of themselves as more open-minded, they are no more tolerant of people unlike them than their conservative counterparts are."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...berals-arent-as-tolerant-as-they-think-215114
 

ElaineA

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Yes, there is no reason to wish him anything but a speedy recovery.

The media, though...they'll be open to criticism if they don't at least acknowledge why they won't be holding him to the health-of-candidate standards they established in 2016. (Hint to MSM: because they were sh**-stirring and misogynistic standards to begin with.)
 

Lyv

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My feelings about Bernie Sanders are well-known (not a fan) but I am ranting all over the place about the "get back out there, we need you" stuff I am seeing. My crappy heart kept going a decade past my predicted expiration in large part because I had to unlearn the "push push push push past it" mentality that makes you feel like a failure if you aren't climbing mountains five minutes after a cardiac event. I felt guilty enough not working as many hours or making it out to a party, but when Bernie hears calls that he's the savior and all is lost without him, it's pressure he doesn't need. When people are saying, "He's so strong, he'll be back out there." Doesn't mean he is not strong is he chooses to step down. I never thought I'd be railing on his behalf, but I guess crappy heart solidarity?
 

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From what I recall, the far right had a conspiracy theory going on 2016 that Hillary Clinton had died and was replaced by a lookalike.

I wish Sanders nothing but the speediest recovery possible. But I don’t necessarily need him in the race. If it’s better for him to drop out and back Warren, he should do what’s best for him. I don’t know if I’d feel comfortable with him at the top of the ticket in 2020 anyway, because of some of the Bernie Bro behavior, and some of the things Susan Sarandon and her fans have pulled.
 

Kjbartolotta

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I never thought I'd be railing on his behalf, but I guess crappy heart solidarity?

It's been a weird primary.

I do often wonder at the pressure Bernie is under from his supporters and inner circle, I remember how long it took him to announce and the many fake-out from people close to his camp before he did. I think Bernie's running because he wants to, and probably because he genuinely believes he's the only one who can fix our country, but I'm fairly well-acquainted with his klatch and can't imagine for a second they're not constantly pushing him to save the world from teh corruption.
 

Lyv

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It's been a weird primary.

I do often wonder at the pressure Bernie is under from his supporters and inner circle, I remember how long it took him to announce and the many fake-out from people close to his camp before he did. I think Bernie's running because he wants to, and probably because he genuinely believes he's the only one who can fix our country, but I'm fairly well-acquainted with his klatch and can't imagine for a second they're not constantly pushing him to save the world from teh corruption.
I am so afraid of that. I was shaking this morning seeing the "come back, we need you" posts from well-wishers. And I might be over-identifying, but way back when I was diagnosed with my first heart problem, a really nasty form of cardiomyopathy that everyone thought would kill me by 2008, I wanted to live, so I worked hard to put together a program and comply with my cardio's recommendations. I think it made a difference, and the key point was that I had to learn to fight against the do-more, push-through-it mentality and learn to do less. It goes against everything I am, and I'm guessing everything Sanders is. I can't know what he's thinking but I have spent a lot of time this morning urging people to be cautious in their language (who do I think I am). But it's so hard to do less, and I was only afraid of disappointing a few people who wanted me to take it easier anyway. With thousands if not millions telling you they need you save them? I cannot imagine, and I just am hoping hard that the pressure to jump back in for others is not a factor in his recovery. As a nurse and now cardiac patient with a whole list of diagnoses, I know this event wasn't a small one. He needs to take care of himself, whatever that means in his case.

And I have been hoping for him to drop out since he announced. It really is a weird primary.
 

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There is intolerance and anger on all sides. Here's an article which discusses the equality of intolerance among many groups.
To quote a portion of it:
"These findings confirm that conservatives, liberals, the religious and the nonreligious are each prejudiced against those with opposing views. But surprisingly, each group is about equally prejudiced. While liberals might like to think of themselves as more open-minded, they are no more tolerant of people unlike them than their conservative counterparts are."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...berals-arent-as-tolerant-as-they-think-215114

Thanks for sharing the link, Gregg. I couldn't agree more. I've been a Black liberal for a long time and I can attest the White liberals can be just as intolerant as White conservatives. The difference is liberals don't think they are intolerant and conservatives know they are but don't care if they are.

Kidding. :rolleyes Mostly.

One thing I do know to be true is that for most of the liberal and conservative friends I've had, I've been the only Black friend they had.


Yes, there is no reason to wish him anything but a speedy recovery.

The media, though...they'll be open to criticism if they don't at least acknowledge why they won't be holding him to the health-of-candidate standards they established in 2016. (Hint to MSM: because they were sh**-stirring and misogynistic standards to begin with.)

Beg to differ. It is entirely fair to ask if a 78-year-old man who just suffered a major medical event is up for the supposedly Hardest Job in the World. Just as it is would be if it had been 76-year-old Joe Biden and 73-year-old Donald Trump. The idea is to vote for someone who can handle the gig for the full four to possibly eight years, not the one who picks a veep who can step in when the top guy becomes incapacitated or kicks off.

If you can be be too young to be President of the United States (and there is an age limit for that), conversely you can be too old to be President of the United States (and there should be an age limit for that too).

Oh, and watch how fast Sanders gets sprung from the hospital. The longer he stays there, the longer the odds are anyone can trust Sanders can last another four years.

If it's shit-stirring to account for age, then hand me a mask and a long-ass spoon because I'm here for that.
 

ElaineA

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If it's shit-stirring to account for age, then hand me a mask and a long-ass spoon because I'm here for that.

I think it's entirely legit to account for age. I don't think that needs to happen today when he's recovering. If/when he's back in the race, it's fair game--for all the older candidates. Trump, Biden, Sanders and Warren. That's not what happened in 2016.
 

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I think it's entirely legit to account for age. I don't think that needs to happen today when he's recovering. If/when he's back in the race, it's fair game--for all the older candidates. Trump, Biden, Sanders and Warren. That's not what happened in 2016.

I think we need to stop litigating 2016. That's in the history books and women age far better than men and while Elizabeth Warren is 70, she hasn't had any of the overt "senior moments" the three older men in the race have exhibited from one time or another. Or in the case of Trump, any day he's drawing breath.

Because frankly I don't see why exactly it's inappropriate or too soon to factor in Bernie Sanders is far from being young or vital. I know that every time I drag my 60+ butt out of the gym or on the job where I work with colleagues young enough to be my grandchildren. Hell, I'm older than my boss and while I get along pretty well, I'll be the first one to tell you I can't do a lot of the stuff now that I could do even 10 years ago.

So, why should I give Sanders a pass? We've already seen how well the current septuagenarian in the Big Chair functions. That should be at least a yellow flashing light about Bernie, if it hasn't already turned red.

For Bernie the story this week should have been and would have been that he hauled in $25 million in the latest round of fundraising reports. It should have been the Sanders story of the week, but it no longer is and that's not the fault of the sensationalist, shit-stirring media I was once a part of.

It's fair game right now to ask questions if Sanders has what it takes to stand and take the shitstorm of attacks from Trump, the RNC and every rich right-winger in the country. If he can't, I damn sure want to know in October 2019 than October 2020, n'est-ce pas?

This week both Wall Street and Mark Zuckerberg promised open warfare should Warren become the Democratic nominee. We're already good on the Dems Left flank with her, so why exactly do I need Sanders anyway?
 

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So, why should I give Sanders a pass? We've already seen how well the current septuagenarian in the Big Chair functions. That should be at least a yellow flashing light about Bernie, if it hasn't already turned red.

I never said you should. I simply said I don't think this conversation needs to happen today. For all anyone knows, he could quit the race. If he stays in, bring it on.

I'm not relitigating 2016. I'm indicting the coverage of Hillary Clinton having a bout of pneumonia and being declared unfit to serve. Many of the same people who agreed then are cheerleading Bernie to return to the race IMMEDIATELY. If there's one thing I know for sure, it's that the mainstream media has still not learned the lessons they should have learned, and we can't afford a repeat of the same grotesque mistakes.

I'm wishing Bernie a speedy recovery. I also wish he would bow out, but I'm holding my powder on that for today.
 

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I never said you should. I simply said I don't think this conversation needs to happen today. For all anyone knows, he could quit the race. If he stays in, bring it on.

I'm not relitigating 2016. I'm indicting the coverage of Hillary Clinton having a bout of pneumonia and being declared unfit to serve. Many of the same people who agreed then are cheerleading Bernie to return to the race IMMEDIATELY. If there's one thing I know for sure, it's that the mainstream media has still not learned the lessons they should have learned, and we can't afford a repeat of the same grotesque mistakes.

I'm wishing Bernie a speedy recovery. I also wish he would bow out, but I'm holding my powder on that for today.

All of this ^

Stints these days work very well, nothing like the older coronary bypass surgeries. He should be fine as long as he didn't suffer any heart muscle damage before he got the stints.

But I was absolutely disgusted the way Clinton's health, pantsuits, and supposed bitch personality were covered in the press. That so few people noticed that was not the way male candidates are covered in the news is also annoying.

Hell, look what we have now and the press is reluctant to say Trump's behavior is not normal. It took them a year to even say the word liar about him.
 

Lyv

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Hi, so I don't know if anyone's seen but GOP [insert non-offensive term for unstable not-genius] conspiracy theorist Jacob Wohl claimed Elizabeth Warren had an affair with a 24-year old Marine, leaving his back whip-scarred, except that the guy he put on camera shirtless previously identified the "whip" scar as a swingset injury on his Instagram, and I would never, ever post about this except Elizabeth Warren's excellent response is here.

And before her tweet, even a lot of non-supporters were saying, "go, Liz," and #cougarsforWarren" was trending. Now, with the response to Warren's tweet, you've got to wonder if Wohl's on her payroll (kidding).

I need my levity, but this a little much.
 

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I never said you should. I simply said I don't think this conversation needs to happen today. For all anyone knows, he could quit the race. If he stays in, bring it on.

I'm not relitigating 2016. I'm indicting the coverage of Hillary Clinton having a bout of pneumonia and being declared unfit to serve. Many of the same people who agreed then are cheerleading Bernie to return to the race IMMEDIATELY. If there's one thing I know for sure, it's that the mainstream media has still not learned the lessons they should have learned, and we can't afford a repeat of the same grotesque mistakes.

I'm wishing Bernie a speedy recovery. I also wish he would bow out, but I'm holding my powder on that for today.

We will have to agree to disagree.

When you are running for the job Bernie Sanders is, you have to accept that the privacy you deserve when you are not, you lose that privacy. Nobody needs to see a photo of Joe or Liz going into the restroom. They're human beings and they have to empty their bladder and bowels the same as the rest of us.

But it is not invasive or incorrect to wonder what really happened to Bernie because if he had an honest-to-hemoglobin heart attack, that is news and it would be journalistic malpractice not to report it.

A 78-year-old man with a medical history of gout and diverticulitis comes to the emergency department after developing chest discomfort while at a work function.


The patient’s overall clinical scenario is concerning enough that he is admitted to the hospital, where interventional cardiologists urgently perform a procedure called a cardiac catheterization. When the doctors inject dye into the major coronary arteries that supply blood to the heart, they find that one of them is so severely blocked that they must immediately place two stents in an effort to restore normal blood flow and hopefully prevent cardiac tissue around it from dying.


Based on the information his campaign has released, this scenario seems to be what happened to Bernie Sanders on Tuesday evening. Without a close look at Sanders’ medical chart, it’s impossible to make a definitive diagnosis, and I have not reviewed the details of his case other than what has been reported to the media by his campaign. But even the scant information we have—that he had stents inserted overnight following an acute cardiac episode—is enough to be able to say: This was very likely a heart attack.


I asked the Sanders’ campaign directly if they could confirm that this was or was not a heart attack. They declined to comment on the record. On Wednesday evening, the Wall Street Journal ran a story that originally stated a spokesperson for Sanders said the senator “didn’t suffer a heart attack,” but that story was later updated to remove that assertion. The story now states that the spokesperson said “more tests would be run to determine that diagnosis.”


A myocardial infarction, the medical term for a heart attack, is defined as an acute injury to the muscle of the heart, accompanied by clinical evidence of inadequate blood supply. This is usually confirmed with a blood test called a cardiac troponin that detects evidence of the damage (this testing takes hours, not days). The threshold that must be reached to raise a doctor’s suspicion of a heart attack is not high. New chest pain or pressure certainly suffices. Pain or new shortness of breath, whether with exertion or at rest, also suffices. But even less obvious symptoms such as sweating, jaw pain, or sudden arm tingling are enough to spur an immediate investigation.



When symptoms are obviously related to the chest, we call them “anginal.” We know that Sanders presented to the doctors with classic anginal symptoms, and that he underwent cardiac catheterization urgently, because the campaign told us so. We can therefore interpolate a great deal about what the emergency doctors and cardiologists likely discovered. If his bloodwork and his electrocardiogram had both been normal, there would have been no need to rush him to the cardiac catheterization suite in such a short time frame (it’s possible some doctors would rush him for catheterization even if those tests were normal, but that would only happen if the patient’s symptoms were extremely bad). The fact that the time frame for this was so accelerated indicates that at least one of those two findings was present, and thus the senator almost certainly met the clinical definition of a heart attack.



The suspicion that Sanders was experiencing a heart attack would have been confirmed in the cardiac catheter suite when his cardiologists found at least two blockages in one of his coronary arteries that required and were amenable to stents. We don’t know whether the fact that he had two stents placed in one artery is evidence of a limited heart attack or the opposite.


Some commentators have been hedging about whether Sanders had a heart attack or not. Here’s why that hedging is likely unnecessary: Other than a heart attack, there are two scenarios that would require coronary stent placement: unstable angina and stable angina. Stable angina is defined as chest pain (or similar symptoms) that do not change over time, and the information the campaign gave about him experiencing chest pain suddenly, during an event, suggests this is not what Sanders experienced.


That leaves unstable angina as the only alternative to a heart attack. Unstable angina is an increasingly controversial topic among experts. In essence, unstable angina is progressive coronary artery narrowing that causes worsening symptoms, but is not necessarily accompanied by new EKG findings or abnormal blood tests. It’s basically an impending heart attack, a ticking time bomb, in which the cardiac muscle has not yet died—but could crumple at any minute. Patients can have unstable angina for minutes, days, weeks, or even longer. While patients with unstable angina who receive stents often feel better afterward and heart attacks are prevented in a small number of them, the risks of the procedure are considered so dangerous—including bleeding, and even the possibility of inducing a heart attack—that only patients with severe risks and/or severe symptoms should undergo cardiac catheterization.


So, again, taken together, the facts we know are that Sanders required two stents and that this occurred in an acute clinical scenario. This means that either it was a heart attack or that it was unstable angina. Unstable angina carries just as poor a prognosis as many, though not all, heart attacks.


Recovery from a heart attack varies. Often people are tired, and most can expect a reduction in their tolerance for exercise and stress. Some are immobilized and require prolonged rehabilitation. It’s also true that some patients bounce back quickly and essentially return to normal. Without more information, we just don’t know what the scenario is for the senator.


Given that Sanders is running for president at the age of 78, I’d suggest it is perfectly reasonable to want to know whether he has just experienced a heart attack and how extensive the damage was. Patients who have had heart attacks have lower life expectancies and are far more likely to have strokes. If he’s going to continue in the race, he certainly should expect to disclose a bit more information about his health.

I understand that it is the respectful thing not to speculate about the health of people, but when you have thrust yourself into the spotlight the way a presidential candidate does, you are giving up your right to expect total privacy.
 

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...

But it is not invasive or incorrect to wonder what really happened to Bernie because if he had an honest-to-hemoglobin heart attack, that is news and it would be journalistic malpractice not to report it.


I understand that it is the respectful thing not to speculate about the health of people, but when you have thrust yourself into the spotlight the way a presidential candidate does, you are giving up your right to expect total privacy.
That's all well and good but lots of people get stints before they have any heart muscle damage. If Sanders or his campaign spokesperson said he's fine, I see no reason to suspect he's hiding serious heart disease.
 
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nighttimer

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That's all well and good but lots of people get stints before they have any heart muscle damage. If Sanders or his campaign spokesperson said he's fine, I see no reason to suspect he's hiding serious heart disease.

A paid campaign spokesman for a 78-year-old politician says "he's fine" and that's good enough for you and there's no reason to suspect he is hiding serious heart disease?

If that works for you, fine. It doesn't work for me at all.
 

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A paid campaign spokesman for a 78-year-old politician says "he's fine" and that's good enough for you and there's no reason to suspect he is hiding serious heart disease?

If that works for you, fine. It doesn't work for me at all.

Doesn't work for me either.
Drugs can be very effective in limiting or even reducing blockage in arteries. Has Bernie been taking any drugs for high cholesterol? If he has and still needed stents, it could indicate a more serious cardiac condition. But at this point we have no idea how serious his condition might be.
 

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Hi, so I don't know if anyone's seen but GOP [insert non-offensive term for unstable not-genius] conspiracy theorist Jacob Wohl claimed Elizabeth Warren had an affair with a 24-year old Marine, leaving his back whip-scarred, except that the guy he put on camera shirtless previously identified the "whip" scar as a swingset injury on his Instagram, and I would never, ever post about this except Elizabeth Warren's excellent response is here. .

Oh, FFS. Trying to portray Elizabeth Warren as a dominatrix who doesn't listen to safe words? That's pretty rich. Like they can't find anything more plausible? That one wasn't even particularly clever or sophisticated as far as online hoaxes go.

Sadly, we're now in an era where people can make "deepfake" videos that will be impossible to tell from the real thing.

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/02/7544...-about-fake-video-audio-and-the-2020-election

My concern isn't just that a fake video will be taken as real and topple a campaign, though this is a possibility. I worry that we will become so jaded by all the hoaxes out there that no evidence, no matter how compelling, will be believed. I think we're already seeing this, in fact. Doesn't help that we have a POTUS who insists that any legitimate news outlet that is critical of him is "fake news" and "the enemy of the people."