Harry Potter And The Depths of Ignorance

Lone Wolf said:

As I read the OP out loud to my teenage kids (raised on Harry Potter and Catholicism) I noticed a couple of issues with the article which makes me wonder if it's fake news. In the Catholic church we don't have pastors we have priests and we don't call them Rev. We call them Father

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I was brought up vaguely Catholic, and I was thinking the same. But my cynical mind suggested that maybe he didn't actually graduate from a seminary, and 'Pastor' was sort of a courtesy title meaning, perhaps 'Lay Principal of a Catholic School'?
Something to keep the parents quiet?

Helix said:

I can't speak for mccardey, but I have no intention of reading the books, so I'll have to forgo this magical experience.

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Not every book is for every reader. You seem like someone who should indeed avoid the Harry Potter books. Enjoy your other reads.

frimble3 said:

I was brought up vaguely Catholic, and I was thinking the same. But my cynical mind suggested that maybe he didn't actually graduate from a seminary, and 'Pastor' was sort of a courtesy title meaning, perhaps 'Lay Principal of a Catholic School'?
Something to keep the parents quiet?

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There are fringe, or ultra-conservative, Catholic groups too. Some operate as ultra-conservative forces within the Roman Catholic Church, but some have splintered off, or at least are not in good standing with the parent church. Maybe some refer to their clergy differently? Remember Mel Gibson was/is involved with one of those, but there are several.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholicism

Roxxsmom said:

There are fringe, or ultra-conservative, Catholic groups too. Some operate as ultra-conservative forces within the Roman Catholic Church, but some have splintered off, or at least are not in good standing with the parent church. Maybe some refer to their clergy differently? Remember Mel Gibson was/is involved with one of those, but there are several.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholicism

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Sedevancantism!

My grandparents used to go to Latin Mass, though considering most of their good friends were priests and nuns they never harbored any intent from splitting off from the Church. They took me once or twice, it was an odd scene, a bunch of incredibly old Irish Catholics in a weirdly plain white church and a priest speaking a language I could absolutely make no sense of. I always disliked church as a kid (being made to go only infrequently), but I always enjoyed the readings from the Bible and felt very unhappy I couldn't at least hear the stories.

During the height of the meagchurch boom, I remember a lot of the Catholics in my town (South Orange County) were getting sort of uncomfortable with the church and there were, I can't think of any other way to describe them, Catholic megachurches popping up for them to go to. AFAIK, they were still in the good graces of the Church but didn't quite smell right, there was a priest, but he was kept very far from proceedings, and they didn't say confessions. I was fascinated, but not enough to check them out, and always got the sense they were designed to mirror the megachurches in the area and obscure some of their own Catholicness. I remember a lot of 'Catholics aren't real Christians' going on in the area at the time.

Kjbartolotta said:

I remember a lot of 'Catholics aren't real Christians' going on in the area at the time.

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I grew up in Orange County--in Newport, actually--too, and I remember that attitude. Religion didn't come up a lot. I wasn't religious, though, so it's possible folks didn't talk about it much around me.

Still, I did run into some folks who were of a more evangelical bent who insisted Catholics were idol worshipers and so on and who also insisted Mormons weren't "real" Christians.

I had a few friends who were pretty devout Catholics. My mom was, I think, worried when I developed a desperate crush on an Italian boy in 8th grade She dropped some hints about how Catholicism teaches that women are inferior and that they don't think women should use birth control. The guy had no romantic interest in me anyway, but I think Mom was worried I might have sex with a Catholic boy who would refuse to wear a condom and therefore get me pregnant someday. Like I would ever have had sex with a guy under those conditions!

I was a bit curious about religion in middle school, because that's the age when I noticed my own family (which wasn't religious at all) was different from some of my friends' families, and I first encountered people who tried to convince me I "had" to believe in Jesus if I didn't want to go to Hell when I died. That scared me some, because they seemed so sure. But then I thought about friends of the family who were Jewish or Hindu, and it didn't make sense they could go to hell just for being the "wrong" religion and not thinking Jesus was God.

This was the 80s, though, and my mild interest/curiosity about religion was quickly replaced once Reagan got elected and started pandering to the Moral Majority and promising to reverse every social change I'd been raised to think were good things and pretty much "settled" (like feminism, tolerance for gay people, reproductive freedom, affirmative action, and environmentalism). Religion became inextricably linked with theocracy and Conservative politics in my mind after that.

There were also evangelical groups that wanted very much to deprive us of rock music when I was a teen and in college. They had record burnings and things. There were some Christian students in my college dorm who didn't believe in dancing. They probably didn't let their kids read Harry Potter when it came out. None of them were Catholic, though.

Kjbartolotta said:

Sedevancantism!

My grandparents used to go to Latin Mass, though considering most of their good friends were priests and nuns they never harbored any intent from splitting off from the Church. They took me once or twice, it was an odd scene, a bunch of incredibly old Irish Catholics in a weirdly plain white church and a priest speaking a language I could absolutely make no sense of. I always disliked church as a kid (being made to go only infrequently), but I always enjoyed the readings from the Bible and felt very unhappy I couldn't at least hear the stories.

During the height of the meagchurch boom, I remember a lot of the Catholics in my town (South Orange County) were getting sort of uncomfortable with the church and there were, I can't think of any other way to describe them, Catholic megachurches popping up for them to go to. AFAIK, they were still in the good graces of the Church but didn't quite smell right, there was a priest, but he was kept very far from proceedings, and they didn't say confessions. I was fascinated, but not enough to check them out, and always got the sense they were designed to mirror the megachurches in the area and obscure some of their own Catholicness. I remember a lot of 'Catholics aren't real Christians' going on in the area at the time.

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Doesn't the Catholic Church own the Crystal Cathedral now? At first I was dumbfounded when I heard it had been bought by the Catholics, but then I thought: doesn't it make sense? Medieval cathedrals were the bombastic corporate HQs of their day. Why not own the most OTT example of 80s postmodern church architecture?

HP will never be the same for me after hearing about JKR's alleged transphobia. I enjoyed the first 3 or so movies, but that's really cooled my interest in anything subsequent.

Kjbartolotta said:

I remember a lot of 'Catholics aren't real Christians' going on in the area at the time.

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And of course as Catholics we had the idea that Catholicism was the one true faith and way of being fully Christian. All the extreme fundamentalism seemed to be among non-Catholic Christians (and non-Christians) - like the Baptist girl who wouldn't swim at the beach on a Sunday - no fun allowed on Sundays, or the Morman girl who wasn't allowed cola or coffee because caffeine was a sin. Then I dated an Anglican man who thought the lighting of candles in a Catholic church must be like some sort of pagan witchcraft or ritual.
I think whatever religion you're brought up in (or none) you'll get skewed ideas of the religions you're not in - partly from ignorance and misunderstanding, partly from active demonization (usually subtle) from within your group of other groups.

Lone Wolf said:

And of course as Catholics we had the idea that Catholicism was the one true faith and way of being fully Christian.

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Every faith, even if their faith isn't religious, believes they have the One True Way.

Albedo said:

HP will never be the same for me after hearing about JKR's alleged transphobia.

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Yep. She's a TERF. I'm out.

Her being a TERF is a big reason I sent my HP collection to my teacher friend's class library. They were on her Amazon wishlist and I asked if she minded used. I know Rowling isn't filing bankruptcy because one class library got a lightly used set instead of me buying a new set for them, but I didn't want her to get even that tiny bit of money she wouldn't ever notice.

Can someone link to wherever JKR's transphobic comments are? I'm lost.

She tends to reblog TERFy stuff on Twitter.

This goes through it fairly nicely: https://medium.com/@Phaylen/jk-rowling-confirms-stance-against-transgender-women-9bd83f7ca623

It's mostly about who she follows and likes, rather than what she says.

Kjbartolotta said:

I'm still hung up on who these exorcists are. My first assumption was you typical jackleg hustler, presumably from some evangelical denomination. But no, this is a Catholic school, one assumes we're talking actual ordained priests. Like, are these experts sent out from the Vatican? People in good-standing and (however horrible and retrograde their views are) get approval from their bishops and the PR Department For the Vicar of Rome Who Probably Doesn't Need Another Headache Right Now. Or are these more weirdos on the edges like the (in)famous Malachi Martin? Can see it either way, but now I'm curious.

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It's actually an official designation, and there aren't many of them.

I don't have a link, but I saw her twitter feed when people were first talking about it, and I looked for myself. I know there are opinion pieces defending her, and Snopes says she didn't "confirm" that she's a TERF but I went only by what tweets she liked and what she said, though I can't remember specifics (my memory is shot).

And here's Snopes' account of the controversy.

I took the same position as many of you because of Rowling's refusal to explain, deny, or justify. On thinking over the Snopes post, I realized I was being hypocritical; too many times in my life I've been accused of things of which I am not guilty but I often didn't correct the misapprehension for a variety of reasons many of which fall under the heading "F*ck it if you don't know me by now".

Is Rowling a TERF? Possibly. Possibly not. I'ma wait to pass judgment but I will watch because it admittedly doesn't look good.

ETA: Lyv posted while I was composin'.

AW Admin said:

It's actually an official designation, and there aren't many of them.

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Yeah, though I understand Benedict tried to beef up their numbers before he retired. As much as I try to keep up with ecclesiastical happenings, I actually don't know much about official exorcists.

But rereading the article I actually can't find any reference to exorcists being consulted, and realized trying to figure out if they're the real thing or not is irrelevant since it's made clear this was the Pastor's call (though I'm sure there are people encouraging him that just don't want to deal with the onus of responsibility).

TBH, I tuned out Rowling a while ago (can't remember why) so her TERF-adjacency is news to me.

Barbara R. said:

If you haven't read the Harry Potter books, I envy you the experience in store. I wish I could read them again for the first time! The most magical thing about the books isn't the magic performed in the pages, but outside them, on the reader.

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Helix said:

I can't speak for mccardey, but I have no intention of reading the books, so I'll have to forgo this magical experience.

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MaeZe said:

That's too bad. The movies aren't as good.

But, not enough time in the world, it gets worse for me too, the older I get.

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I will probably read them. My son who was the perfect age for them (which, as I understand it now, seems to be anyone with some time available) and who knows me really well has insisted since the 90s that I should, and I'd love them. I did start to watch one of the movies but I'm not good at TV and movies so I only got a few minutes in. Son said the books were the way to go, anyway.

But like Helix, to start them all now looks like a hella mountain of reading. And there's already a hella mountain of reading to do. One day...

Re the Rowling issues, I can't tell if her responses to the tweets in question are a result of the ignorance that is altogether too common among women of my own and older generation (she is very close to my age) who have not actively been trying to educate themselves versus stemming from a more thought out position of outright malice towards transgender women. There's still a lot of ignorance and confusion out there about what it is to be transgender, and it would not be the first time she's allowed ignorance about issues to lead her into making questionable choices.

Of course, ignorance can do a great deal of harm, even if it is not coming from personal hatred, and it's frustrating how many people seem to choose to be ignorant when good information is out there. Sad to see it in someone who claims to champion liberal causes.

Is Rowling a TERF? Possibly. Possibly not. I'ma wait to pass judgment but I will watch because it admittedly doesn't look good.

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I don't see any evidence she's a TERF from three Twitter likes and following the twitters of an anti-trans feminist. When she actually says something about it, then I'll judge.

Cobalt Jade said:

I don't see any evidence she's a TERF from three Twitter likes and following the twitters of an anti-trans feminist. When she actually says something about it, then I'll judge.

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It'd be the easiest thing in the world for JKR, a woman with a platform unequaled by any author's in history, and a reputation for supporting social justice causes, to say 'I'm okay with transgender people'. Something she's not ever done as far as I know. Sadly, given how acceptable transphobia seems to be to the liberal British establishment in 2019, it's eminently believable that a liberal establishment British author doesn't like transgender people. I don't understand why she can't just tweet a single line if it's all been a big mistake.

Cobalt Jade said:

I don't see any evidence she's a TERF from three Twitter likes and following the twitters of an anti-trans feminist. When she actually says something about it, then I'll judge.

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When one of the biggest writers in the world platforms TERFs and TERF positions by likes and following on twitter, it's making a statement. When this all first came to light, she was repeated asked to clarify her position, and she declined to do so. I don't have the luxory nor privilige of giving her a mulligan on this one. YMMV, of course.

Cobalt Jade said:

I don't see any evidence she's a TERF from three Twitter likes and following the twitters of an anti-trans feminist. When she actually says something about it, then I'll judge.

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True that following someone, and even liking or sharing their posts, is not proof of anything. I have a friend who "likes" things all over the spectrum, and she doesn't seem to have much "spider sense" for dogwhistles or for the context in which certain kinds of comments arise. I shudder sometimes at the things she shares and likes, and if I didn't know she wasn't actively prejudiced against some people, I'd think she was.

Still, it's strange for someone who seems to be such a feminist in other contexts to be so obtuse about issues faced by transgender women. I don't know much about the specific issue in the UK--the woman who many think should be sentenced to a men's prison because she is trans--that those posts she liked were referencing either.

People keep mentioning she is guilty of sexual assault against women. I don't know if this is true or not, but I can certainly see why people would oppose putting her in the general women's prison population if they think it's true. I wouldn't want a cisgender woman who assaulted other women in the general women's prison population (though, hmmm, we certainly seem to be okay with sexually violent cismen being housed with other cismen in men's prisons).

When similar issues have come up in the US--for instance, there was a debate over whether a transgender woman in prison should get gender confirmation surgery on the State's dime--some of the responses characterized as anti-trans seem to be to be more of a result from a general reluctance to "coddle" criminals in general by providing health care that isn't isn't available to many people outside prison.

Not trying to make excuses. Even if she isn't the TERF camp, I think people should educate themselves about issues on social media and not just blindly retweet or like stuff we don't understand, and this is doubly true for celebrities, whose public opinions have a lot of weight and consequence. Calling transgender women "men in dresses" is pretty clearly bigoted, and since Rowling hasn't come out and clarified her position or denounced transphobia, I have to wonder. And I'm already disappointed with Rowling over the way she's handled some other issues.