Alt-right women upset that alt-right men treat them poorly

Not just voting for the Leopards Eating People's Faces party, but pouring ketchup over their cheeks and ringing the dinner bell... who could've predicted a leopard would take them up on the invite?

I'll send them a thought and a prayer. Just don't ask what I'm thinking or praying for them... (Sorry, I'm sure it's wrong of me, but I'm done with trying to sympathize, or empathize, or find some way to connect with people like this. You do not get to drag the whole country down into the mud and expect me to care about the stains on your best dress.)

Hatred and bigotry are like Lays potato chips--betcha can't have just one. I haven't run across many racist men who aren't also virulently sexist.

Not a lot of sympathy for women who align themselves with a cause that has been nothing but open in its contempt for the rights of women.

The fact that these women are just fine with shitting on the rights of everyone else, and in fact are perfectly okay with their own bigotry, does little to engender sympathy for them. Honestly, I find bigotry on the part of people who have themselves been victims of it even more incomprehensible than it is coming from people who have never truly experienced any.

Roxxsmom said:

Honestly, I find bigotry on the part of people who have themselves been victims of it even more incomprehensible than it is coming from people who have never truly experienced any.

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Generations of socially-embraced oppression, paired with denigration and belittling of those who point out and oppose oppression, have unfortunately conditioned many people to oppress themselves. And they call it their choice and freedom, when it is neither.

Brightdreamer said:

Generations of socially-embraced oppression, paired with denigration and belittling of those who point out and oppose oppression, have unfortunately conditioned many people to oppress themselves. And they call it their choice and freedom, when it is neither.

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Yeah, this must be it, but even so it's always blown my mind that so many women who clearly benefit from feminism and expect to reap the benefits of the women's movement protest that they "aren't feminists."

Heard a woman on npr the other day talking about her activism as a woman in the entertainment industry and all the sexism and inequality women still face there. And then she drops the 'ol, "I don't consider myself a feminist" line.

I wish journalists would press people more when they say things like this. "So if you're fighting for the rights and equality of women in your profession, why don't you consider yourself a feminist? Are you unconcerned about the rights and equality of women in other situations, or do you define feminism differently than most people do?"

But these alt right women aren't embracing causes that advance women in any situation. They're simply whining because the male haters hate them too.

Roxxsmom said:

Yeah, this must be it, but even so it's always blown my mind that so many women who clearly benefit from feminism and expect to reap the benefits of the women's movement protest that they "aren't feminists."

Heard a woman on npr the other day talking about her activism as a woman in the entertainment industry and all the sexism and inequality women still face there. And then she drops the 'ol, "I don't consider myself a feminist" line.

I wish journalists would press people more when they say things like this. "So if you're fighting for the rights and equality of women in your profession, why don't you consider yourself a feminist? Are you unconcerned about the rights and equality of women in other situations, or do you define feminism differently than most people do?"

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My guess is that the term "feminist" has been successfully hijacked and corrupted to mean "screaming, bra-burning extremist ranting in the streets and coming to clip male genitals off with kitchen shears" in the minds of the general public. So those who actually support feminist ideas are afraid to gather under an umbrella that they fear paints them as nutcase "anti-man" caricatures. And by keeping them divided, the opposition wins.

That's the thing, isn't it? Either you believe that human rights are universal and apply to all humans, or if you don't then what's to stop people from deciding that you are in the group that they're going to persecute next?

Brightdreamer said:

My guess is that the term "feminist" has been successfully hijacked and corrupted to mean "screaming, bra-burning extremist ranting in the streets and coming to clip male genitals off with kitchen shears" in the minds of the general public. So those who actually support feminist ideas are afraid to gather under an umbrella that they fear paints them as nutcase "anti-man" caricatures. And by keeping them divided, the opposition wins.

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In fairness, this has been true forever. And women have always been participants in our own oppression.

lizmonster said:

In fairness, this has been true forever. And women have always been participants in our own oppression.

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Nurses used to be our own worst enemies until the labor shortage dam burst causing hospitals to finally compete for nurses by paying more.

Roxxsmom said:

Hatred and bigotry are like Lays potato chips--betcha can't have just one. I haven't run across many racist men who aren't also virulently sexist.

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Here's an article that backs your point: the experts quoted suggest that sexism is in fact a "gateway" to racism and mass violence. I don't know if I would try to defend that theory, but there's not much getting around the fact that the three are intimately linked.

Misogyny and mass violence

Any time the human brain becomes sufficiently twisted (usually from a sense of entitlement) to embrace one form of hate, it's not in the least difficult to rationalize another one. And another and another....

I would suggest, however, that where alt-right women are concerned: social conditioning is a powerful formative influence. If you grow up in an alt-right household, you'll think from the time you're small that this is the way the world is. Your parents will probably try to be careful about sending you to the "correct" schools and colleges: your friends will be other people who have grown up in your environment. That's simply the way cultural conditioning works, and it's the way it works whether you're right, left, religious, atheist or polka-dotted.

So if you've grown up with a mentality that has constantly been restricted and reinforced by people around you; if you've been taught that "mainstream media" is merely another term for lying propaganda, it's not going to be hard for you to adopt that thinking as your own. And yes, you might then be very, very surprised when you discover that the haters around you are not righteous, they are not nice people, and they don't really care about your rights or anyone's but theirs. You might try to grasp the ideas your world was based on even more firmly, while struggling with the contradiction that's now hitting you.

So, yes, let's do be sympathetic. This is an educational opportunity. We can use this chance for dialogue or pass it up.

What too many people growing up in the alt-right have never had the chance to learn is this:

A hater doesn't really care why he hates. Black is as good a reason as female; gay is as good a reason as liberal. His so-called ideology is simply his excuse. He has a great sense of power and community (with other haters) and a great sense of his own righteousness. Hate is his drug. He gets it in doses from the time he's small. He gets used to thinking that it isn't harmful. Most people under this regimen don't develop into "hate-a-holics." They're social haters, if you will. They'll get together at a barbecue and swig a few. They'll protect their drug usage by voting for it at elections. They have a thousand reasons to justify it, and they think Haters Anonymous is a place for sick people who are just too weak to handle the stuff.

Reality: hate damages your brain. For too many haters, it becomes the drug they need to get through the day. Then it gets more demanding: you have more, you need more. The hater seeks out reasons to hate people, and gets his "fix" when he finds one. His delusional addiction keeps him from looking far enough ahead to see what the world will be like when it is composed of entirely self-centered, entitled people who are incapable of compassion, self-sacrifice or tolerance. He likes to fan his hate by imagining himself as a victim, but he is unable to imagine himself as a real victim of the bigotry he feeds on. In the end, he is always surprised.

Addicts usually think they can control their own outcomes ... until they can't.

Brightdreamer said:

My guess is that the term "feminist" has been successfully hijacked and corrupted to mean "screaming, bra-burning extremist ranting in the streets and coming to clip male genitals off with kitchen shears" in the minds of the general public. So those who actually support feminist ideas are afraid to gather under an umbrella that they fear paints them as nutcase "anti-man" caricatures. And by keeping them divided, the opposition wins.

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I thought that's what women were afraid of in the 80s, but I'd heard rumors that the third wave of feminism was different and that younger women were more willing to identify with it than my generation was with second-wave feminism. Also, even back in the 80s, women who were active politically on behalf of women's issues weren't reluctant to adopt the moniker. It was the inactive masses who benefited from the political action of other women who hated the term.

I just wish the people conducting those interviews with women's activists would ask them to clarify why they aren't feminists.

Roxxsmom said:

I thought that's what women were afraid of in the 80s, but I'd heard rumors that the third wave of feminism was different and that younger women were more willing to identify with it than my generation was with second-wave feminism. Also, even back in the 80s, women who were active politically on behalf of women's issues weren't reluctant to adopt the moniker. It was the inactive masses who benefited from the political action of other women who hated the term.

I just wish the people conducting those interviews with women's activists would ask them to clarify why they aren't feminists.

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Tool around the internet and you'll get some interesting reading and reasoning.


"I believe in equal rights but I don't call myself a feminist because . . ."

• "It excludes men from the conversation." Yeah, no it doesn't; it excludes men who want to control women from the conversation and that's as it should be.
• "People (men?) think feminists are unattractive." Sorry, kids, who cares?
• "Feminism today is an umbrella term that includes the LGBTQ community and gender fluidity." *sigh*
• "We don't need labels; it's about human rights." Absolutely, women's rights ARE human rights but as long as discrimination zeroes-in on specific groups, descriptive and definitive labels with specific strategies are needed so that no group is made invisible or their issues swept under the rug.
• "While I'm for closing the pay gap, I can't support abortion."

And the list goes on. And the sad part of it all is that none of that is new.

But, you're right, you know. It's the inactive masses who benefit that are content to sit back and snipe while others carry the load—just as it was forty some odd years ago.

ETA: Just to be clear on the "inactive masses" comment: The work is meant to be for everyone's benefit and I've never cared who isn't doing as long as they aren't sniping, hindering, or creating more work for those who are doing. Most of the active women and men I've known over the past four decades feel the same way.

Ari Meermans said:

ETA: Just to be clear on the "inactive masses" comment: The work is meant to be for everyone's benefit and I've never cared who isn't doing as long as they aren't sniping, hindering, or creating more work for those who are doing. Most of the active women and men I've known over the past four decades feel the same way.

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Oh, I agree, and I certainly count as inactive on most issues. Aside from voting, contributing money to causes when I have some to spare, and expressing my opinions, anyway, and attending an occasional march. I haven't got the foggiest idea how to change organizations from within or how to start an organization that lobbies politicians or brings lawsuits or anything.

I get why a lot of people don't feel they have the time or resources to be super active politically. My spouse and I have had conversations about where we'd draw the line to engage in active civil disobedience, which could mean getting arrested, beat up, and possibly even losing everything we have (or if things get really grim, killed).

We've agreed there's a threshold, but having the courage to act when that threshold is reached? Gah!

I know all the reasons why some women who believe in equality don't self-identify as feminist because women I knew were saying those same things back when I was a teen and young adult.

But in the past, most of the women who were out there being activists on behalf of women's issues, the ones being interviews by Terri Gross etc., labeled themselves as feminists. Now, apparently, some don't.

I mean, in this day and age, anyone who declares themselves a capital-F Feminist paints a target on their forehead. It takes some serious ovaries to stand out front on women's rights in 2019, to be willing to be inundated with harassment, slurs, rape threats from anyone with a smart phone, not to mention the doxxing and swatting from the next-level apes. I'm grateful for those who do it.

As with just about every other political issue, the common ground is salted earth. Women who side against their own interests are scared and entrenched. If we do nothing else, we have to vote. Vote, vote, vote, vote, vote.