Switching/bouncing POV

JosieK

Registered
Joined
Aug 28, 2019
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
What's everyone's opinion on switching POV? I'm starting to feel out my next big writing project, and I'm currently thinking about using bouncing third-person limited POV (a la Robin Hobb's Liveship Trilogy). Does anyone have experience with this? Does it work with just 2 POV characters? Does it need to be balanced or should the POV switch to best suit the story?

Any advice is appreciated! I was discouraged in a writer's group from switching POV in my last project, and I feel really good about how that manuscript came out, which makes me nervous to do something different.
 

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
1,737
Reaction score
426
Location
Haunted Louisiana
It's more of a personal preference, but to prevent reader confusion keep it to one POV per scene (at a minimum). Some folks find using one POV per chapter works for them. It's really up to you. Keeping the story flow intact while preventing reader confusion is the goal.
 

nickj47

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
261
Reaction score
47
Location
Novato, CA
Unless you're writing first person, I think you almost have to shift POVs. You're unlikely to have the POV character in every scene. I used to think it was okay to switch to omniscient if you didn't have a POV character in the scene, but apparently that's bad form nowadays.
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,768
Reaction score
4,663
Location
Scotland
What exactly do you mean by 'switching/bouncing' POV?

I know what changing POV means but switching/bouncing POV sounds a tad dizzying.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,543
Reaction score
24,140
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
What exactly do you mean by 'switching/bouncing' POV?

I know what changing POV means but switching/bouncing POV sounds a tad dizzying.

This.

If you're talking about third limited but more than one POV, it's done all the time. Go forth and write without worry.
 

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
230
Location
Colorado
Website
indianroads.net
I thought the OP was talking about head-hopping.

Unless you're writing first person, I think you almost have to shift POVs. You're unlikely to have the POV character in every scene.

I don't agree. I use close third person in my novels, and usually have only one POV character. If something happens out of his sight, someone has to tell him about it.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,543
Reaction score
24,140
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I thought the OP was talking about head-hopping.

Head-hopping that's properly done is called third omniscient. :)

I don't agree. I use close third person in my novels, and usually have only one POV character. If something happens out of his sight, someone has to tell him about it.

There is absolutely no requirement for multiple POV. But more than one is perfectly fine, in third or first, and not at all uncommon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dickson

BethS

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
11,708
Reaction score
1,763
What's everyone's opinion on switching POV? I'm starting to feel out my next big writing project, and I'm currently thinking about using bouncing third-person limited POV (a la Robin Hobb's Liveship Trilogy)..

Can you describe what you mean by this? I read (didn't finish) the Hobb trilogy close to a couple decades ago, and I really don't recall how she used POV. "Bouncing" POV conjures head-hopping to me, which, IMO, is not a desirable thing. But maybe all you mean is going back and forth (by chapter or scene) between two viewpoints?
 
Last edited:

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,543
Reaction score
24,140
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
The trick seems to be the properly done part.

Absolutely. It's also fallen somewhat out of fashion - it was done much more (at least in SFF, which is what I'm most familiar with) in the 70s and 80s.

But books with multiple POVs, generally switching at chapter breaks, are published all the time. If that's what OP meant, they're fine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VeryBigBeard

Maryn

Sees All
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,451
Reaction score
25,483
Location
Snow Cave
FWIW. how much (if any) POV changing is acceptable is often genre dependent as well. Your private eye novel is going to be in one POV only, most likely, while your epic fantasy can switch with chapters or sections, no problem.

For writers who don't see how it's possible to write their story without switching POVs so whatever character was present can take the reader through each event, read a mystery or thriller. A great many are entirely in one POV, and if you make yourself step back from a good story told well, you can observe exactly how the author did it.

Maryn, with a nod to Harlan Coben, who had no idea he was offering instruction
 
  • Like
Reactions: lydisstrange

starrystorm

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
2,987
Reaction score
605
Age
24
Another thing you could do is switch by chapters. That's what I did with my first novel (still betaing), but I used to first person POV's. But that being said, there's no order you have to swap POV's at. You don't have to go A B C A B C. You can go A C C B A for all you want.
 

Sarahrizz

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
106
Reaction score
7
Location
Pennsylvania
Website
writingstudiosarah.blogspot.com
I don't have a huge amount of experience here, but I will try to give my two cents. In my current novel I have 3rd person shadowing one character, but I did find it necessary to switch POV to another two characters for a limited number of chapters. When I first did this, my reader felt confused, but I have since been able to edit it so that it is no longer a complaint. You can always do the same. Write how you see the story, then get a reader to give you their opinion of how it is working.

The only books I've ever read that I was displeased with a POV switch were Veronica Roth's Divergent Series. Where by the end she's switched first person POV to a second character and she's killed the first character. Mainly because it left me with a bad feeling, and for a dystopian science fiction, I believe there needs to be some sweet for the overall meaning to the books to sink in. But it also left me with a nerdy question: Where did the first roughly 2.5 books come from, if she died before she could write it down?
 

BethS

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
11,708
Reaction score
1,763
But it also left me with a nerdy question: Where did the first roughly 2.5 books come from, if she died before she could write it down?

First-person POV doesn't necessarily imply the narrator is writing down the story, or even telling it to someone. Many are written as if we're hitching a ride in their thoughts, and it's no more complicated than that.
 

screenscope

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
681
Reaction score
78
Location
Sydney, Australia
I'm a big fan of multiple POVs,the more the merrier, and use them all the time in my work, and if done well -like anything else in writing - readers won't even notice.
 

Barbara R.

Old Hand in the Biz
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
1,963
Reaction score
242
Location
New York
Website
www.barbararogan.com
"Bouncing third-person limited POV!" What a mouthful, and what an image! I picture a chubby-cheeked toddler POV sitting on your knee and gurgling delightedly...

Anyway, I've been in the publishing and writing business for [mumble, mumble) decades and I never ran across that term before. I'm guessing that it means a POV that moves from one character to another in different scenes, but that is so common as to need no excuses made. So maybe it means a POV that moves from one character to another within the same scene, If that's the case, I think that you probably need to establish from the opening pages an overall omniscient POV, so that those switches don't feel like headhopping. Alice Hoffman does that often---she's a good one to read if you want to see how smoothly a master-writer can make those shifts. Pat Barker, too.

You also ask how many POV characters you should have. I think the answer to that one is unrelated to the question of bouncing baby POVs. What works best for most writers is using the fewest number of POV characters needed to get the story told. Every time you add a POV character, you're adding a dimension to the story; throw in too many and readers' attention and identification with your MC will be hopelessly diluted.

Of course, like any "rules" in writing, that one may be broken at will...if you can carry it off successfully.
 

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
3,727
Reaction score
488
Location
Commonwealth of Virginia--it's for lovers
Website
www.elizabethhuhn.com
You can have as many POV characters as you like, either in first or third (within reason, of course; if you have 30 different POVs in one book, your reader is probably going to get confused). I've done a mixture: one ms switches between two POV characters; its prequel switches between four POVs; another ms switches between three; and yet another, like the first, switches between two POVs, though we also have a switch in time between the two POVs of a hundred years. A novella is strictly one POV. Those are all third person. One ms is first person and only one POV.

The ms I just finished is all first-person, told from four POVs and from the perspective of different years. Interestingly, the characters are literally telling their stories to someone, and they are actually already dead, to speak to Sarahrizz's comment above. It's not too common to see this kinn of framing device anymore, but in the 19th century, most novels were framed as a story being told (verbally or by found letters or what have you--hence the story-within-a-story-within-a-story structure of Frankenstein). Today, we don't actually expect that the narrator is literally telling the story or writing the story down; we're simply privy to their thoughts/memories, all of which could be going through their mind in the split second before they snuff it.

As for the other question about alternating POVs--no, there need not be any pattern. Use whichever POV works best for each scene/chapter. Maybe that character's voice will put the situation in an interesting light; maybe you need that POV character because they see/do something important. Sticking strictly to a pattern will force you into adding unnecessary scenes/chapters just to keep the pattern going.
 

Brigid Barry

Under Consideration and Revising
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
8,877
Reaction score
14,199
Location
Maine, USA
I'd like to go back to the OP's question about balance in POV.

The majority of my story is from the POV of the MC, with the antagonist and a supporting character getting some "screen time", usually when they're together and the MC is off doing something else. I have a secondary character (she's at the beginning and the end) who has one POV scene in the beginning to reveal her anxiety about what might happen to the MC after being very nonchalant about it from the MC's POV.

Should these four POVs get roughly equal time or is it okay to have one or two chapters in someone's head and then never be back in their POV again?
 

Jazz Club

It's not wrong, it's dialect
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 18, 2021
Messages
4,009
Reaction score
6,169
Location
Northern Ireland
I'd like to go back to the OP's question about balance in POV.

The majority of my story is from the POV of the MC, with the antagonist and a supporting character getting some "screen time", usually when they're together and the MC is off doing something else. I have a secondary character (she's at the beginning and the end) who has one POV scene in the beginning to reveal her anxiety about what might happen to the MC after being very nonchalant about it from the MC's POV.

Should these four POVs get roughly equal time or is it okay to have one or two chapters in someone's head and then never be back in their POV again?
I don't think they have to have 'roughly equal time', but I personally find it a little annoying when a character only has one or two scense from their POV and is never heard from again. I think 70% one character's POV and 30% someone else's POV can be fine, though. I'd be interested to know what anyone else thinks.

I know that in some thrillers/murder mysteries there is a very short amount of the novel taken up with the murderer's POV, then the rest with the detective/investigator/hero, but I'm never quite sure what that tiny glimpse inside the killer's mind brings to the table. For me, I'd rather have a significant amount of time with everyone.

If you feel you need to 'tell' the audience something in that charcater's one scene, maybe you could find another way of doing it? This is just my opinion though, some readers probably don't mind and YMMV.
 

Brigid Barry

Under Consideration and Revising
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
8,877
Reaction score
14,199
Location
Maine, USA
I don't think they have to have 'roughly equal time', but I personally find it a little annoying when a character only has one scene from their POV and is never heard from again. I think 75% one character's POV and 25% someone else's POV can be fine, though. I'd be interested to know what anyone else thinks.

I know that in some thrillers/murder mysteries there is a very short amount of the novel taken up with the murderer's POV, then the rest with the detective/investigator/hero, but I'm never quite sure what that tiny glimpse inside the killer's mind brings to the table. For me, I'd rather have a significant amount of time with everyone.

If you feel you need to 'tell' the audience something in that charcater's one scene, maybe you could find another way of doing it? This is just my opinion though, some readers probably don't mind and YMMV.
The single scene I could probably put into the POV of the MC. When this character doesn't think anyone is looking at her maybe she's being fidgety or giving off a vibe or something.

My rewrite (I previously hacked this apart before hiding it in the back of my metaphorical closet for three years) is giving a LOT more time and development to the MC, which is going to throw the balance between her and the other two characters way off, which is what prompted the question. If I need to rewrite and cut I'm sure it can be done, that's what I'm doing with the rest of it!

Not sure if it matters but the novel is 3rd person limited.
 

Jazz Club

It's not wrong, it's dialect
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 18, 2021
Messages
4,009
Reaction score
6,169
Location
Northern Ireland
The single scene I could probably put into the POV of the MC. When this character doesn't think anyone is looking at her maybe she's being fidgety or giving off a vibe or something.

My rewrite (I previously hacked this apart before hiding it in the back of my metaphorical closet for three years) is giving a LOT more time and development to the MC, which is going to throw the balance between her and the other two characters way off, which is what prompted the question. If I need to rewrite and cut I'm sure it can be done, that's what I'm doing with the rest of it!

Not sure if it matters but the novel is 3rd person limited.
I don't think it matters that it's in 3rd person limited, it can still seem a bit jarring to have only one chapter/scene from one character's POV and then they disappear again forever. If it's only one scene I'd be inclined to show her anxiety some other way, but don't just take my word for it, I could be an idiot!

I'm having a similar problem coincidentally. My novel started off with 2 MCs with roughly equal time but I always find myself writing the male MC's scenes and never getting round to writing the female MC's scenes (he's just nicer and easier to write). I was thinking of making it 70%/30% (hence my advice to you) but then sometimes I even consider making it all from the male MC's POV. The problem is he isn't always there and there's no way to show what's happening if he isn't there if I don't have another POV character.
 

Nether

has been brought to a creepy mansion in a cemetery
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2021
Messages
5,946
Reaction score
11,873
Location
New England
The problem is he isn't always there and there's no way to show what's happening if he isn't there if I don't have another POV character.

Can you just convey the information through another means? You might not need the other POV.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jazz Club

Jazz Club

It's not wrong, it's dialect
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 18, 2021
Messages
4,009
Reaction score
6,169
Location
Northern Ireland
Can you just convey the information through another means? You might not need the other POV.
Well maybe, but I might have to make some big structural changes to do that. The two MCs are supposed to be kind of enemies — eventually there's a rapprochement but on the way there's a lot of misunderstandings and I need both POVs to show the audience what's going on even as the characters are in the dark. Think I just need to try to like the 2nd MC a bit more and get into her head!
 

Brigid Barry

Under Consideration and Revising
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
8,877
Reaction score
14,199
Location
Maine, USA
Well maybe, but I might have to make some big structural changes to do that. The two MCs are supposed to be kind of enemies — eventually there's a rapprochement but on the way there's a lot of misunderstandings and I need both POVs to show the audience what's going on even as the characters are in the dark. Think I just need to try to like the 2nd MC a bit more and get into her head!
This what I have going on too, believe it or not. There's a case of mistaken identity happening that I want the readers to know but not the MC.