Rethinking Conflict

Laer Carroll · Aug 22, 2019

Roxxsmom said:
...you need an emotionally compelling arc with obstacles for the character to overcome. ...overpowered characters [whose] gifts allow them to effortlessly surmount every obstacle ... make for dull reading.

What she said is a short statement of a longer one I came across years ago when I joined AW. I've lost it but it goes something like the following.

Stories are about STRUGGLE. They are simplified descriptions of life, and life is full of struggle. Just breathing is about lungs overcoming ribs and chest muscles to open our lungs to air, for instance.

Struggles imply GOALS. We seek to breathe air, for instance.

Goals can be POSITIVE. They may be PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL, MENTAL, or SOCIAL. Examples include finding buried treasure, gaining self respect, discovering a cure for cancer, getting a date for the prom.

Goals can be NEGATIVE. Examples include escaping a ravening horde of zombies, avoiding depression, struggling against ignorance, avoiding an unwanted marriage.

A plot is a SUCCESSION of overcoming/avoiding obstacles which block progress toward the goal. It ends when the main character wins or loses when dealing with the last obstacle.

Obstacles, like goals, may be physical, emotional, mental, or social. Or some combination. They may be PASSIVE, as a mountain range. Or ACTIVE, as a storm.

Human or HUMANOID obstacles are very effective in getting and keeping the interest of readers. These antagonists may not be evil, merely with different goals to those of protagonists.

These were one set of the rules/guidelines I always thought universal. Until a character haunted me until I told her story. And told it her way. And made lots of money (by my paltry standards). And made even more with her sequel. A character who "effortlessly surmounts every obstacle."

That's when I began to look outside the box, to find other counter-examples to the rule INCLUDE IMPORTANT CONFLICTS in our stories.

I've only just begun, but so far it seems that genre stories have the most conflict and the most major conflicts. Contemporary and literary stories more often have low or no conflict.

One type of low/no conflict stories seems to be SLICE OF LIFE stories which let readers experience a different place or time or culture than their own - or revisit a lost or desired place/time/culture. Another is the ROAD TRIP, where the goal is only an excuse for the story. Another is the CHARACTER PORTRAIT, a deep dive into someone's past and nature.

There are probably other types of low/no conflict stories which I've not yet discovered.

SwallowFeather · Aug 23, 2019

I don't have a clear thesis to present on this, but there are some things I've noticed over the years:

- Descriptions of pleasant moments with nothing much in the way of conflict are actually quite enjoyable to read. A description of a good meal, an afternoon fishing on a lake... a character taking a shower and singing and enjoying the heck out of making breakfast, a character enjoying moving their new furniture (lovingly described) into their future home... All these are specific things I've enjoyed and remembered and sometimes even gone back to in specific books, at a moment of weariness when I just wanted to read something pleasant before going to sleep.

- Sometimes a sense of movement, even in the absence of conflict, makes for compelling reading. Did anyone else read that weird series The Long Earth, etc, that purported to be co-authored by Terry Pratchett but bore so little mark of his writing hand? In it someone invents a device that allows you to teleport to an alternate earth with no people in it... and then another, and then another. The plot gets more and more disjointed and pointless as the series goes on, and the signs of that show up real early, but it really kept me reading quite a long time with just the sense of movement created by the human race's expansion and exploration into dozens and hundreds and millions of alternate earths. It gave me a sense of excitement, till it petered out into "nothing's actually going to happen, is it..."

Me, I prefer plot, overall. But these are just things I've noticed.

Also, in the vein of the classification stuff you're starting up here: Robert McKee in his book story gives us three categories of plot: ARCHPLOT, the traditional struggle-against-conflict story, ANTIPLOT, which he describes as really avant-garde deliberately plotless literary fiction (or arthouse movies, he's mostly talking about movies), and MINIPLOT, which is basically a low-conflict, slice-of-life plot, but still a plot--there's still struggle but it's small and ordinary, and the portraits of the characters and their setting are at least as important as the plot.

Elle. · Aug 23, 2019

The way I see it for a story to be enjoyable it needs to have a rhythm and if the whole story is just conflict, after conflict, after conflict then that's pretty much a flat line. For rhythm you need ups and downs so moments of tension/conflict alternated with breather. You can often reveal a lot about character and character development in those breathers.

Laer Carroll said:
I've only just begun, but so far it seems that genre stories have the most conflict and the most major conflicts. Contemporary and literary stories more often have low or no conflict.

One type of low/no conflict stories seems to be SLICE OF LIFE stories which let readers experience a different place or time or culture than their own - or revisit a lost or desired place/time/culture. Another is the ROAD TRIP, where the goal is only an excuse for the story. Another is the CHARACTER PORTRAIT, a deep dive into someone's past and nature.

There are probably other types of low/no conflict stories which I've not yet discovered.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that generalisation. Because those stories are not about catching a killer, stopping a disaster or saving a planet, or doesn't;t have to fight some big bad or evil doesn't mean there is low or no conflict. I'm currently reading a novel about a couple who moves from NYC to London for a change of scenery because the wife suffer from depression and there is plenty of conflict and tension, especially with the husband leaving on the edge wondering every moment if this is the day his wife will try to kill herself again, the frustration of being unable to help her, and his wife conflicted between wanting to get better and not knowing what's wrong with her.

Laer Carroll · Aug 24, 2019

Laer Carroll said:
One type of low/no conflict stories seems to be SLICE OF LIFE stories which let readers experience a different place or time or culture than their own - or revisit a lost or desired place/time/culture. Another is the ROAD TRIP, where the goal is only an excuse for the story. Another is the CHARACTER PORTRAIT, a deep dive into someone's past and nature.

Elle. said:
Because those stories are not about catching a killer, stopping a disaster or saving a planet, or doesn't have to fight some big bad or evil doesn't mean there is low or no conflict.

Quite right. Stories about ordinary life without big dramatic events can certainly include all sorts of conflict, such as the example you gave where the conflicts are psychological. The types I gave such as the character portrait may show the main character conflicted about all sorts of matters. And those conflicts may be huge in the context of the story, life-threatening or life-destroying.

But my point is that stories such as the character portrait where there is no conflict of ANY kind can still be very successful, winning awards and selling to huge groups of people from all walks of life.

Basically if any authority tells you a story MUST have some kind of conflict they are misleading you. We as artists have the freedom to disobey such rules and still create works many other people will enjoy.

kuwisdelu · Aug 24, 2019

All a story really needs is a motivation to keep listening/reading/watching and a payoff for doing so.

How you accomplish that is up to you.

Laer Carroll · Sep 1, 2019

kuwisdelu said:
All a story really needs is a motivation to keep listening/reading/watching and a payoff for doing so.

Very true. I don't think we even need a payoff, some kind of climax giving an "orgasm" such as learning who done it in a murder mystery.

What are some typical motivations? Maybe we can take as a guide the idea that a story has three legs: character, setting, plot.

For me the CHARACTERS in a story are what draw me to and through a story and brings me back to reread it though I know the storyline backward and forward. The main character is someone I like, or at least find interesting. I want to spend time with her or him or it. I don't need anything else, such as a payoff when the MC gets the guy/girl/promotion. That's nice, but on my many re-reads I already know that's coming.

Some times it's a GROUP of characters that motivates me to read/reread a story. And I try to provide that in the stories I write. They often have a superhero/ine main character with a secret identity. S/he may be a lone wolf when s/he dons her working costume and slips into the night to wreak havoc in the criminal underworld, but s/he leaves from and comes back to a family or friends.

There are other stories where the SETTING is my motivation for reading the story. Every once in a while I return to the Lord of the Rings to relive the Shire, or the forests of Lothlórien, or other places. My copy is bookmarked so I can go directly to them without plowing through the whole story again.

I think part of the appeal of the Star Wars movies is the universe portrayed, with both its beautiful and awe-inspiring vistas and even the picturesquely ugly deserts and shanty towns. A lot of crime shows on TV appeal because of their settings. My lady friend and I are fans the Canadian show Murdoch Mysteries with their portrayals of turn-of-the-century Toronto. (Of course my friend also likes Murdoch, who is good-lucking and has a likable white-knight sort of charm. So the appeal of the show for her is a twofer.)

Then there's the plot, or more broadly the ACTIONS. James Bond effortlessly defeats multitudes of bad guys and girls with lots of spectacular chases and fights. He may be temporarily defeated/captured, but always to escape and win out of captivity with more spectacular fights and chases. There's always a payoff, of course, a necessary part of any PLOT. But the payoff really is not the point of all the Fast and Furious stories. They are all about the races.

The action of romances always ends in the Happily Ever After. But the stories rarely continue long afterward. What's more important is the meeting of the two future lovers and their accidental and purposeful wooing that is the main motivation for readers. This includes the long and detailed love-making scenes that are more often strewn throughout romance novels nowadays.

My guess is that most of us prefer stories where the three "legs" are all well written and woven together. That way we get three kinds of satisfaction from reading them. But (for me at least) any book which gives me a good serving of any one of the three is enough for me to open my wallet to buy it.

PostHuman · Sep 1, 2019

Laer Carroll said:
Contemporary and literary stories more often have low or no conflict.

One type of low/no conflict stories seems to be SLICE OF LIFE stories which let readers experience a different place or time or culture than their own - or revisit a lost or desired place/time/culture. Another is the ROAD TRIP, where the goal is only an excuse for the story. Another is the CHARACTER PORTRAIT, a deep dive into someone's past and nature.

There are probably other types of low/no conflict stories which I've not yet discovered.

I don't quite understand. Without conflict, it wouldn't be a story, just a prose description of something. Upmarket and literary novels, even many non-fiction books are also packed full of conflict. Doesn't have to be a huge external threat, just someone dealing with some kind of problem in their life.

Samscript · Sep 1, 2019

PostHuman said:
I don't quite understand. Without conflict, it wouldn't be a story, just a prose description of something. Upmarket and literary novels, even many non-fiction books are also packed full of conflict. Doesn't have to be a huge external threat, just someone dealing with some kind of problem in their life.

I tend to agree with this. The original post, however, is correct. There is no one answer to the definition of drama. There are many types of conflicts, big and small. There are plenty of stories that are experimental in this regard.

However, most literary novels have conflict. There seems to be a conflation here of conflict and stakes. Literary novels tend to have low stakes, not necessarily low conflict. The stakes don't involve the destruction of humanity. But the conflicts tend to be real, most often implied. Some people like to call this "tension" instead of "conflict."

ap123 · Sep 2, 2019

Samscript said:
However, most literary novels have conflict. There seems to be a conflation here of conflict and stakes. Literary novels tend to have low stakes, not necessarily low conflict. The stakes don't involve the destruction of humanity. But the conflicts tend to be real, most often implied. Some people like to call this "tension" instead of "conflict."

Agreed. IMO it isn't that there are stories without conflict, it's a matter of conflict being defined more broadly. I read a lot of lit fic, and can't think of any where there is no conflict.

Enlightened · Sep 2, 2019

Laer Carroll said:
But the payoff really is not the point of all the Fast and Furious stories. They are all about the races.

This is a subjective statement. Character transformations and relationships, throughout the early movies, were a big part of it (e.g. between Brian, Dom, Dom's sister, and Dom's circle of friends). The races and road thefts were elements to show the transformation of characters and their relationships.

Elle. · Sep 2, 2019

Laer Carroll said:
Quite right. Stories about ordinary life without big dramatic events can certainly include all sorts of conflict, such as the example you gave where the conflicts are psychological. The types I gave such as the character portrait may show the main character conflicted about all sorts of matters. And those conflicts may be huge in the context of the story, life-threatening or life-destroying.

But my point is that stories such as the character portrait where there is no conflict of ANY kind can still be very successful, winning awards and selling to huge groups of people from all walks of life.

Basically if any authority tells you a story MUST have some kind of conflict they are misleading you. We as artists have the freedom to disobey such rules and still create works many other people will enjoy.

Do you have any examples of a book where there is no conflict that was very successful?

I might be wrong but I suspect that you are confusing plot with conflict. Some literary novels have little plot because they are heavily character-driven however that doesn't mean that they have no conflict. For example, Edward St Aubyn's Never Mind takes place over a day and the plot is following several characters getting ready and travelling to attend a dinner party. A very simple plot but the story is packed with conflicts and tension.

Laer Carroll · Sep 16, 2019

Elle. said:
Do you have any examples of a book where there is no conflict that was very successful?

If you read widely for a good many years you will encounter them time and again.

Elle. said:
Edward St Aubyn's Never Mind takes place over a day and the plot is following several characters getting ready and travelling to attend a dinner party. A very simple plot but the story is packed with conflicts and tension.

Quite right. But all you are doing is presenting an example of a successful book with lots of conflict. It's one of thousands.

That does not address the question I was puzzled about. A fairly successful book with zero conflict: my own. In the course of six months this self-published ebook brought me a little under $20,000, about $17,000 from its sales, and a remaining $3,000 from sales of previous books.

Its sequel, with the same flaws, is still earning and has made more. So my question remains. What the H*** is their appeal?

Woollybear · Sep 16, 2019

I've reread many of my old favorite books looking for this conflict, after learning/following the same lesson plan Laer describes, because I never saw the conflict in the stories I enjoyed. And I did not want to write 'conflict.' Yuck. Surely not everyone wants conflict!

Re-reading those old stories, mostly SFF, they do have goals and obstacles, but I never felt pulled by the goals and obstacles. In many, I couldn't even tell you if the goal was reached or what.

Take Dragonflight. Lessa's goal is to reclaim Ruatha hold. Well, that doesn't happen because F'lar's goal is to find a girl to impress the new queen dragon. Lessa is a feisty little scullery urchin, all rags and grime and matted hair, and she doesn't think much of the strapping dragon rider F'lar and his egg.

So, conflict.

But you know, I can't remember clearly how that book ended. I do remember Lessa wanted to ride her dragon. She stopped worrying about her family hold, gave it up without a backward glance. There was some hot and weird dragon stuff (and thank god R'gul didn't win the flight) and there was telepathy. Nifty sand scrub hot spring baths. Wine. Lots of wine. Robinton swooped through with a new ballad now and then.

I mean, yeah, there's conflict all over the place in that series, but that's not why I read it. I liked the idea of having a dragon. I liked the idea of escaping being a scullery maid. Telepathy. Wine.

I feel like focusing too much on 'conflict' risks other parts of the story that are important (or more). I mean, people need to enjoy being in the story world. Pern? Yeah, that sounds pretty cool. Squadrons of dragons overhead, guilds and weyrs and all that. Sounds awesome.

BethS · Sep 16, 2019

The Pern novels (at least the first few) are loaded with conflict. Characters have to overcome obstacles to their goals (and a goal can change over the course of a novel. Lessa's did). Conflict also happens when characters have differing agendas that clash. Conflict is basically the struggle between opposing forces, and that can take many, many forms in a story.

Woollybear · Sep 16, 2019

I guess I wonder if Laer has conflict and just doesn't identify it as such. Like ap says, and you're saying too, the definition is maybe broader than some of us give it credit for.

Tocotin · Sep 16, 2019

"A story needs conflict" is not a rule; it's an observation. Conflict can be defined incredibly broadly, but it is a sine qua non of a story.

Laer Carroll said:
If you read widely for a good many years you will encounter them time and again.

Please let me second Elle here and ask you for examples. I don't read as widely as I would like to, but I'm trying. Some stories, especially outside of Western literature (Japanese writers, I'm looking at you) can be very low on straightforward conflict, but it is always there. The only prose form I can think of that *might be* described as utterly lacking conflict is a so-called "sketch" (I don't know if this is the right term, English Wiki doesn't have it, but it was popular in the 19th century), which consists of a simple description of a setting or a person or an animal - but even then there is a conflict underneath the surface.

Laer Carroll said:
Quite right. But all you are doing is presenting an example of a successful book with lots of conflict. It's one of thousands.

That does not address the question I was puzzled about. A fairly successful book with zero conflict: my own. In the course of six months this self-published ebook brought me a little under $20,000, about $17,000 from its sales, and a remaining $3,000 from sales of previous books.

Its sequel, with the same flaws, is still earning and has made more. So my question remains. What the H*** is their appeal?

From what I've seen of your book, it has lots of conflict, not zero. Your heroine is fighting people and obstacles, ergo, there is conflict. Yes, she is the best and most powerful of all the characters in the book, and does everything effortlessly - "effortlessly surmounts every obstacle", as you (or your readers? I don't know) put it, but the truth is that obstacle = conflict. Your book seems to have plenty of it.

Koulentis · Sep 16, 2019

Elle. said:
Do you have any examples of a book where there is no conflict that was very successful?

Jim the Boy by Tony Earley. There is a subplot with conflict (competition with another boy), but there is very little conflict otherwise.

Elle. · Sep 17, 2019

Laer Carroll said:
If you read widely for a good many years you will encounter them time and again.

Quite right. But all you are doing is presenting an example of a successful book with lots of conflict. It's one of thousands.

That does not address the question I was puzzled about. A fairly successful book with zero conflict: my own. In the course of six months this self-published ebook brought me a little under $20,000, about $17,000 from its sales, and a remaining $3,000 from sales of previous books.

Its sequel, with the same flaws, is still earning and has made more. So my question remains. What the H*** is their appeal?

I have read widely for a good many years in English and French, thank you and I cannot think of any stories or novels I have read with no conflict, hence I was asking you as you seem to know plenty. The ones I've read had from little to a lot of conflicts but never zero.

I have no read your book but solely based on the description on Amazon it mentions that the heroine is loving her life on earth but still wants to find where she is from — that's conflict for me.

BethS said:
The Pern novels (at least the first few) are loaded with conflict. Characters have to overcome obstacles to their goals (and a goal can change over the course of a novel. Lessa's did). Conflict also happens when characters have differing agendas that clash. Conflict is basically the struggle between opposing forces, and that can take many, many forms in a story.

Yes to all of this.

I would also has internal conflict. Characters can be conflicted about making a certain decision or course of actions so the conflict doesn't have to come from external opposing forces or people.

Koulentis said:
Jim the Boy by Tony Earley. There is a subplot with conflict (competition with another boy), but there is very little conflict otherwise.

I agree that some stories have little conflict, but little doesn't equal zero conflict.

I have no issue that there must be exceptions that stories with no conflict don't exist at all but I don't agree with the notion that they are very frequent.

Dan Rhys · Sep 17, 2019

If it's relevant at all to this discussion, there is nothing I enjoy in both reading and writing more than putting the reader in the situation of asking oneself, "What on earth would I do if I was in this situation?" I prefer dilemmas over conflicts, although conflicts always manage to sneak into dilemmas. It's what I try to do when writing, and I enjoy people reacting to it as I hope and telling me how they would respond to the fix the character finds himself in.

Helix · Sep 17, 2019

Dan Rhys said:
If it's relevant at all to this discussion, there is nothing I enjoy in both reading and writing more than putting the reader in the situation of asking oneself, "What on earth would I do if I was in this situation?" I prefer dilemmas over conflicts, although conflicts always manage to sneak into dilemmas. It's what I try to do when writing, and I enjoy people reacting to it as I hope and telling me how they would respond to the fix the character finds himself in.

A dilemma is a conflict. It's internal, rather than external, but it's definitely conflict.

angeliz2k · Sep 18, 2019

It might be helpful to review something fairly basic, which is the general types of conflict:

Man versus man.
Man versus nature.
Man versus society.
Man versus himself.

There are sometimes a few others thrown in there (Google tells me man versus fate and man versus technology are also Things).

So, a person trying to sort out their self-identity is man vs. himself, and that's conflict. And a person just trying to fit in is man vs. society, even if there are no big fights with bullies or attempts to bring down the social system. Conflict doesn't need to be a major clash--all it is is two forces, great or small, pulling in different directions (that difference may be subtle and that pull may be gentle).

I wouldn't say it's impossible to have a book without conflict, but it would be damned hard, because with no conflict, you really don't have a story. Of course, you can have a book without a story, but . . . why?

Ari Meermans · Sep 18, 2019

angeliz2k said:
It might be helpful to review something fairly basic, which is the general types of conflict:

Man versus man.
Man versus nature.
Man versus society.
Man versus himself.

There are sometimes a few others thrown in there (Google tells me man versus fate and man versus technology are also Things).

So, a person trying to sort out their self-identity is man vs. himself, and that's conflict. And a person just trying to fit in is man vs. society, even if there are no big fights with bullies or attempts to bring down the social system. Conflict doesn't need to be a major clash--all it is is two forces, great or small, pulling in different directions (that difference may be subtle and that pull may be gentle).

I wouldn't say it's impossible to have a book without conflict, but it would be damned hard, because with no conflict, you really don't have a story. Of course, you can have a book without a story, but . . . why?

This. Especially the part I placed in bold. Maybe it would more helpful to call it 'tension' instead of 'conflict'. We tend to think of stories as either character-driven or plot-driven but that's not really accurate. A character-driven book without tension (conflict) is merely a character study and a book that's plot-driven without some form of tension is just a sequence of events. Tension is the engine that provides the forward momentum in your story and without it, there is no story.

Woollybear · Sep 18, 2019

I think two things. One, that it seems different people come to the idea of conflict with different fundamental ideas of what the word means. When the idea of conflict was first brought to my attention, and I don't remember by whom, it was definitely in the 'car-chase, explosion, gun battle' sort of way. A nice stabbing. Pain, screaming.

I found the idea of 'conflict must be on the page' ridiculous because of that. The idea of violence and death is not hard to find amongst writerly advice, at least in my experience.

And two, that there's so much emphasis on 'conflict' that things like... 'joy' and 'love' and 'pleasure' seem to go by the wayside. I'd personally say a book must have joy, and without joy it's ~~a pointless read.~~ not something I'd particularly care to read.

Sure, conflict can lead to greater joy, and I'm not saying no conflict (I'm saying what I said above, #1 and #2.) I'd personally prefer if the idea of positive emotions was as emphasized as negative ones. Your story could use a little more love. That preference of mine is probably why the mentor archetype (Gandalf) and the best friend archetype (Samwise) are often my favorite characters, time and again.

Maybe too, conflict might naturally finds it way into stories, and its so ubiquitous that some of us don't realize it. The broader definition of it in this thread (which I've also heard here and there) makes it hard to imagine any story could get by or be written without any conflict.

Oh well, good morning everyone. Coffee.

mpack · Sep 19, 2019

When the MC goes to get a cup of coffee, a call interrupts. It's an important call, so she can't ignore it, but now her coffee is delayed. That's conflict. The caller needs facts, data, info from a report, but the report isn't in her brief case. It must be in her desk. More delays, more conflict. Low stakes? Depends on how much she wants that hit of caffeine. Finally, she's off the phone and into the break room. She pours a cup of -- miraculously still hot -- coffee. One sugar or two? The endorphin receptors sing for a duet, but her doctor's advice nags to cut to one. More conflict. The phone again. She has a conference call at ten, can she squeeze out of the office by 11:30 for lunch with the new department head? Of course she can, if she moves this, and cuts that, and trims a touch more time -- all conflict, every choice.

And not the first stabbing, gunshot, or car accident. Of course, the day is young, and our poor MC still hasn't taken the first sip of coffee, so who knows?

indianroads · Sep 19, 2019

angeliz2k said:
It might be helpful to review something fairly basic, which is the general types of conflict:

Man versus man.
Man versus nature.
Man versus society.
Man versus himself.

There are sometimes a few others thrown in there (Google tells me man versus fate and man versus technology are also Things).

So, a person trying to sort out their self-identity is man vs. himself, and that's conflict. And a person just trying to fit in is man vs. society, even if there are no big fights with bullies or attempts to bring down the social system. Conflict doesn't need to be a major clash--all it is is two forces, great or small, pulling in different directions (that difference may be subtle and that pull may be gentle).

I wouldn't say it's impossible to have a book without conflict, but it would be damned hard, because with no conflict, you really don't have a story. Of course, you can have a book without a story, but . . . why?

I had just started college when Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions was released. I loved that book and read it several times. Vonnegut said that the book was a 50th birthday present to himself - and it was about emptying his head of miscellaneous nonsense. (At one point he even drew a picture of women's underwear.) Plot? It was about 2 people meeting each other. That was it, and yet, there was plenty of conflict.

Conflict is all around us all the time. Right now, I'm sitting at my computer wondering what more I should say. Conflict. My partner is running the vacuum in the hall, even though I cleaned the place just yesterday. Conflict. I'm writing this when I should be working on the plot outline for my next novel. Conflict.

Small conflicts can be just as entertaining as big ones, it just depends on how you frame it. You know, I think I'll read Breakfast of Champions again... oh wait, what about the book I'm currently reading?

Conflict.

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