Idea: "Die Hard" in a church?

onesecondglance said:

I'm cautious about this part, not least because it reinforces the "all we need is more good guys with guns" fallacy, but also because one of the reasons Die Hard works is because McClane has so little power compared to the bad guys. It's not just that he's outnumbered - he doesn't even have any shoes!

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The "good guy with a gun" fallacy combined with shooting up a church make this an idea I wouldn't touch with a 100 yard pole.

The thing about McClane not having shoes—I went to a workshop with Chuck Wendig, and one of the movies he used as an example was Die Hard. The reason why he doesn't have shoes is a plot point that's introduced right in the opening scene, and by the time you get to it, it makes sense. Wendig also talked a lot about McClane's motivation: what is it that McClane wants? Someone answered, to stop the terrorists, but that's not actually it. He wants to get back together with his wife. That's his real goal throughout the movie. The terrorists are the obstacle standing in his way that provide a clear goal–obstacle–stakes set-up that gives us the clear plot arc of the movie.

Chuck Wendig is really good at breaking down plot and character arcs and showing how they work, I highly recommend taking advantage of a workshop with him if any of you get the chance at it.

JJ Litke said:

The "good guy with a gun" fallacy combined with shooting up a church make this an idea I wouldn't touch with a 100 yard pole.

The thing about McClane not having shoes—I went to a workshop with Chuck Wendig, and one of the movies he used as an example was Die Hard. The reason why he doesn't have shoes is a plot point that's introduced right in the opening scene, and by the time you get to it, it makes sense. Wendig also talked a lot about McClane's motivation: what is it that McClane wants? Someone answered, to stop the terrorists, but that's not actually it. He wants to get back together with his wife. That's his real goal throughout the movie. The terrorists are the obstacle standing in his way that provide a clear goal–obstacle–stakes set-up that gives us the clear plot arc of the movie.

Chuck Wendig is really good at breaking down plot and character arcs and showing how they work, I highly recommend taking advantage of a workshop with him if any of you get the chance at it.

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^^^THIS

Also in Die Hard, McClane is not "good guy with a gun" fallacy he's actually a cop, which means he has training and experience to fall back on. When you look at those kind of films in general the MC is pretty much always a current or ex cops/military/secret service/etc... instead of just Joe Blogg.

LeviSweeney said:

I've got the basic idea of "'Die Hard' in a church."

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Couple things here:

1) Die Hard is not a thriller, it's an action movie. The Hero engages in combat because of honor - and in this case saving his marriage. It's a constant tit-for-tat that makes up the entire story line a process of elimination. The main Hero's tool is the ambush.

2) A church (even a cathedral) is a very enclosed space and here you have both the Villains and the Hero in the same confined space. The fight is not going to last long; you will not have enough material to last an entire novel. You can change that if your Hero has to defend the church, much like circling the wagons in old Westerns. Die Hard is set in a skyscraper for two reasons - ample space for ambushes and a way to keep the police at bay while the story develops.

3) The first shot that resonates throughout the church uncovers the shooter. There are few hiding places, and unless the Hero(ine) is highly trained and skilled the story degrades rapidly after that. Because there is no longer any opportunity for ambushes.

4) The movie Air Force One is probably the best example of what NOT to do. You can't shoot inside a flying airplane without dire consequences but the movie allows plenty of that. The shots gave the impression the insides of a Boeing 747 could host the Olympics. This story has more plot holes than Swiss cheese, yet it made a profit - because of Harrison Ford.

LeviSweeney said:

The problem I keep running is like this: How do I make the villain interesting?

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Making the Villain interesting in an action story is not the main focus. Developing the Hero(ine) around honor is. The best Villain in this type of story is a Villain without honor, or honor that is at 180 degrees from the Hero(ine). For example in Tom Clancy's Debt Of Honor, it is about two types of Honor with the Villain's being an old Japanese code.

Hope this helps.

-cb

Should be a really large or interesting church, maybe some iconic cathedral like Notre Dame

BlackKnight1974 said:

The MC could be the groundskeeper/gravedigger etc which gives them a valid reason for not being in the church when it is taken over. You could have fun coming up with an interesting back story as to why they are there. Digging tools make pretty good weapons and that would mean they don't need their own gun/CCW/background as a special forces sniper - perhaps they can disarm one of the bad guys who is sent out to check the graveyard is clear. Depending on how gory you want to make it, you've also got lawnmowers/chainsaws etc

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Gravedigger (and landscape guy)! If not for the MC, then certainly for sidekick, ally, etc. Don't even need a gun - just a guy with a shovel, who knows how to use it!

LeviSweeney said:

{...} there are tons of Evangelical megachurches {...}

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I've checked the layout of those premises and they all look like beach vacation resorts with small buildings scattered about. From a hostage taker's point of view it's a nightmare to manage.

That's why Crichton's Jurassic Park was set 1) on a remote island, 2) only accessible by a daily ferry boat, 3) the main action happens while a major hurricane hits the island - thus cutting any boat or airplane escape, and 4) a side villain has cut the power AND everything communications and then promptly dies after making sure his deeds are irreversible. Crichton even made sure the focus was on a reduced set of characters by making it an amusement park that has not opened yet. Granted, Jurassic Park is a master class in crafting a horror-type story setup; it's however an illustration of the things you may want to check to ensure there is some sort of physical or psychological barrier that makes hostage escape and outside interference extremely limited.

-cb

LeviSweeney said:

I appreciate your input. As I mentioned at the top of the thread, I'm not a huge thriller guy. I haven't even seen Die Hard all the way through, I just know about the general idea based on pop-cultural osmosis. I'm mainly just bouncing ideas off the wall and looking for what sticks.

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Stop. Right there. As mentioned above, do your research now. Go back and watch Die Hard and similar movies all the way through. Pick them apart and see what they're aiming for: motivation and character development (both protagonist and antagonist), location (why Nakatomi Plaza might be a better fit than the Crystal Cathedral), the like. If you aren't familiar with this sort of story, you honestly need to become familiar with it if you expect to write something similar. Hoping it'll all occur to you through "osmosis" is like people writing to trend without having any clue on how the publishing industry operates, why it's not such a good idea to write to trend, or if you are going to try, what's happening in the trend (is it still going full steam ahead or is there a sizable downturn where publishers are avoiding said trend and already focused on the next one [which generally is the case]?) If you aren't "that much of a thriller guy", then why bother? What interests you more? If you aren't into your particular story, it'll come through in your writing and readers won't want to see it. (Speaking from experience: I used to scorn and deride romances until I found out they were my genre and I should write those instead of space opera or high fantasy, which I'd done for 15+ years.)

I think the idea has potential. Let's examine the premise a bit.

An empty church is just a building; a church occupied by a congregation is a soft target with potential hostages. Nonetheless, the building will be important--a character unto itself.

Avoid offending readers of faith by casting members of the congregation as innocent victims.

Craft your MC as someone who must rise to the occasion, however reluctant/vulnerable/frightened/etc., and the immediate supporting characters in much the same vein. Give all your protagonists characters ample problems to overcome (remember, not all need survive).

Craft your villain with layers within layers. The apparent evil motive need not be the ultimate one; it's far more interesting if it's even more sinister.

Whatever can go wrong for your MC, must go wrong. The final obstacle must be personally significant to your MC.

Carefully foreshadow an unexpected twist--yet keep it hidden until the right moment.

Have fun with it!

what if they take over the Vatican and hold the pope hostage? or maybe your hero is the pope (à la Harrison Ford in Air Force One)

BenPanced said:

Stop. Right there. As mentioned above, do your research now. Go back and watch Die Hard and similar movies all the way through. Pick them apart and see what they're aiming for: motivation and character development (both protagonist and antagonist), location (why Nakatomi Plaza might be a better fit than the Crystal Cathedral), the like. If you aren't familiar with this sort of story, you honestly need to become familiar with it if you expect to write something similar. Hoping it'll all occur to you through "osmosis" is like people writing to trend without having any clue on how the publishing industry operates,

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I snipped it, but plus one to all of BenPanced's thread. If you want this to work as a thriller, you will need to understand what makes thrillers work (and what has been done to death, and what hasn't and how to construct a villain who makes for good reading) and oh all sorts of stuff.

It would be a pity to lose a premise that excites you because you hadn't grasped the genre.

If you don't like reading thrillers, I'd suggest you don't try writing a thriller. There are other things you could write that involve the physical spaces of megachurches.

Just a comment, but...the idea of someone shooting up a church calls up echoes of Dylan Roof and his attempt to start a race war. Could we please not try to make a white terrorist interesting? (And if your terrorist isn't white, you might want to re-examine your assumptions.)

PostHuman said:

what if they take over the Vatican and hold the pope hostage? or maybe your hero is the pope (à la Harrison Ford in Air Force One)

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The level of people and expertise needed to do that would be extreme. Nothing's impossible, but it's as close as stuff like this gets. Do not mess with the Swiss Guard. It'd be an interesting thing to write, but the complexity would take an absolute ton of research and knowledge of a lot of various types of things.

It's like writing a terrorist hijacking an El Al flight -- there's regular criminality surrounding hijacking to get into and then there's trying to put one over on El Al security, which is an entire other deal.

LeviSweeney said:

Thanks for your helpful words, kind sir!

Now, all this discussion had this given me some ideas:

* Suppose the villain in question was some kind of maniac who wants to break the world record for most people killed in a terrorist attack. Does that sound like a good villainous motivation? I'd of course add some more layers to the subject, like you suggested, this being just a rough idea.

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This is generic, and common, and makes your villain sound not particularly bright. It also puts you in a box in terms of the types of places, and geographic locations, you're talking about.

For example, perhaps the bad guy is working with some run-of-the-mill criminals, having convinced them that they're going to rob the congregation of a wealthy megachurch, but is secretly just using that as a pretext to install bombs throughout the church, after which he intends to blow the place to smithereens before surrendering himself to police as The Ultimate Killer. But perhaps the bad guy also is suffers from some kind of mental illness (I have some knowledge of the subject, having dealt with that sort of thing in my personal life) that makes him a bit tortured and gives him just a hint of sympathy.

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I don't understand what he needs the other people for. Also if his plan is just to blow up a stadium, you're facing plot limitations -- there's no personal interaction, no hiding, no use of the building. Either it blows up or it doesn't..

If that doesn't work, I could always go for "the one you love to hate" route and make him a total, maniacal bad guy, but I'd prefer to give the bad guy some kind of saving grace that humanizes him even just a little.

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Humanizing characters is good -- making them interesting is better.

The question:

* Some of the fellows writing on this forum have suggested that I don't make the hero a "good guy with a gun." I understand where they're coming from, but I would of course have in mind the assumption that the good guy in question was a military veteran or something, or perhaps came from a background (such as, say, the rural variety where hunting with firearms was something people did regularly) that would provide a rationale for him being handy with a firearm.

For example, suppose the good guy was a Catholic priest or something who was paying a visit to the Evangelical megachurch in question, say, as part of some kind of ecumenical occasion. Perhaps this priest was a former U.S. military guy (I thought of making him a chaplain, but Google says that chaplains don't actually fight) who carries a locked firearm kit in the back of his car for emergencies like this, a precaution which the attendees of the large, wealthy megachurch hadn't thought to take.

What do you guys think?

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Wait, how is a guy with a gun going to stop a bunch of bombs going off? What does he need a gun for? Also, how is that not playing in to the 'good guy with a gun' thing?

Also... a Catholic priest with a weapon in his car in case he runs into a terrorist? This does not sound like any priest I have ever met.

You've got another issue with the latter -- every megachurch has thought to take these precautions. They have security, guards, etc.

You can do something like this, it just needs a bunch of study.

LeviSweeney said:

Thanks for your helpful words, kind sir!

Now, all this discussion had this given me some ideas:

* Suppose the villain in question was some kind of maniac who wants to break the world record for most people killed in a terrorist attack. Does that sound like a good villainous motivation? I'd of course add some more layers to the subject, like you suggested, this being just a rough idea.

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It's a motivation. But why a megachurch? How do you get this motivation across to the reader?

LeviSweeney said:

For example, perhaps the bad guy is working with some run-of-the-mill criminals, having convinced them that they're going to rob the congregation of a wealthy megachurch, but is secretly just using that as a pretext to install bombs throughout the church, after which he intends to blow the place to smithereens before surrendering himself to police as The Ultimate Killer.

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Wouldn't it be easier to knock over whoever's handling the takings after the service? You'd have to be pretty stupid crims to think that robbing a large congregation -- possibly being recorded -- is a better idea than waiting for everyone to go and then pulling off a straightforward robbery.

LeviSweeney said:

But perhaps the bad guy also is suffers from some kind of mental illness (I have some knowledge of the subject, having dealt with that sort of thing in my personal life) that makes him a bit tortured and gives him just a hint of sympathy.

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Why would you want a mass murderer to be sympathetic, especially if his only goal in committing an atrocity is to feed his ego? It's lazy characterisation. And I don't think that blaming it on mental illness is a good idea.

LeviSweeney said:

If that doesn't work, I could always go for "the one you love to hate" route and make him a total, maniacal bad guy, but I'd prefer to give the bad guy some kind of saving grace that humanizes him even just a little.

The question:

* Some of the fellows writing on this forum have suggested that I don't make the hero a "good guy with a gun." I understand where they're coming from, but I would of course have in mind the assumption that the good guy in question was a military veteran or something, or perhaps came from a background (such as, say, the rural variety where hunting with firearms was something people did regularly) that would provide a rationale for him being handy with a firearm.

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That's still ' a good guy with a gun' scenario.

LeviSweeney said:

For example, suppose the good guy was a Catholic priest or something who was paying a visit to the Evangelical megachurch in question, say, as part of some kind of ecumenical occasion. Perhaps this priest was a former U.S. military guy (I thought of making him a chaplain, but Google says that chaplains don't actually fight) who carries a locked firearm kit in the back of his car for emergencies like this, a precaution which the attendees of the large, wealthy megachurch hadn't thought to take.

What do you guys think?

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I still can't get my head around the idea that someone has a firearm locked in their car for emergencies like foiling mass murder. But, getting away from that, how does he get out to the car to retrieve the firearm, while no one else can?

I think there's a lot more thinking to be done here. If I could choose three things to start with, it would be -

a) Don't blame mental illness for things like terrorism and don't give your bad guy a mental illness to humanise him and evoke sympathy while he's shooting up a church which is probably filled with families and families have children and little babies. Okay, that's two things, but really. Just. Don't.

b) Don't expect a Catholic priest to carry a gun (especially not to a church) unless the congregation is so endangered by war or turmoil that priests with guns is a Thing (and you'd have to build that world for us).

c) Don't have bad guys go to a megachurch to rob people because internet banking is a thing nowadays and people don't carry all their valuables to church with them. The most a robber would get is a bunch of state of the art audio/vis equipment, but there are easier ways to steal that (say - an electronics shop after dark...)

You have a location you want to use. That's a start - but don't try to rush too much.

LeviSweeney said:

What do you guys think?

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I think you've got tons of research to do. You're not to the planning phase yet.

There was a mega church near us that was almost hit after the collection on a sunday morning. They have 7200 seats, and 3 services, so that can add up to quite a lot of money. I mean, they pass around buckets, so they're still getting a ton of cash. (The police got wind of it and arrested the guys before they could do anything) So throwing out some ideas, you could make it seem like a straight up robbery, but they are after something else, something a lot bigger. That way, the goal and the stakes start out small and grow bigger and bigger as the story progresses. That also allows you to throw in some fun twists and turns, and keeps the reader guessing.
For example, imagine there's an old forgotten tunnel running between the church and a hotel where the president is going to be addressing some people. The hotel is locked down completely. There is no way anyone is getting in there, unless they go through this forgotten tunnel. These guys know that the entrance to this tunnel is directly under the church vault. Their plan is to bring in the armored vehicles at the beginning of the third service to get into the vault, and from there cut through into the old tunnel with blow torches. Because it's in a built up area, they have to be quiet, and they only have an hour after the offering is collected and before the sermon ends. If one person gets wind of it, someone will alert the police. So they cannot take any chances. When they get there, they take down the security guards, and later realise that one of them is unaccounted for. They follow a trail of blood into the sunday school buildings.
Now all of a sudden, things are getting out of hand. The bad guys suddenly have to lock down the building, but it's okay, because it's still easy enough to contain. There are a lot of kids but only a handful of teachers. Your protagonist is a sunday school teacher that was collecting some supplies out of one of the offices at the time, so they don't know about him. The church is busy doing extensions at the back of the building, so there are lots of half finished areas he can move between. He tries to get a message out, creating more problems.
He is in love with one of the other sunday school teachers- a single mother, who isn't all that interested in him. You can follow her story as well as his. There has to be some kind of emergency in there, but obviously they cant send for any help because the place is locked down, so she's dealing with the emergency to the best of her abilities with the limited resources that they have. She gets word to your protagonist, who can get her some of the supplies she needs, but this causes other problems. Eventually word gets out, things get out of hand and SWAT is called in. The bad guys have to then lock the whole place down until the first group are through. Those who are left behind hope to keep the police busy at the church and then eventually also escape through the tunnel, at the same time, they can't allow the police to realise what is happening, so they make it look like they are terrorists or a group that hates Christians. They plant bombs around the building, but your hero is making life really difficult for them. At the same time, he's just a normal, nice guy, so it's really difficult for him to kill these people, but he does what he has to. (At this stage, the reader doesn't know what is happening yet either. They've gone from thinking it's a robbery to a terror plot) During the chaos the bad guys take the love interest's kid as a hostage. Your hero discovers the truth about the assassination. He can't get a message to the cops, but the love interest can (make it dangerous for her) while he goes after the bad guys to save the child, and ultimately the president. Because of his bravery, he ends up with the love interest in the end.

BradCarsten said:

He is in love with one of the other sunday school teachers- a single mother, who isn't all that interested in him.

<<snip>>

Because of his bravery, he ends up with the love interest in the end.

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*cough*

LeviSweeney said:

What do you guys think?

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A megachurch is being built on top of a rock formation that legends say has been used to store a Confederate treasure in gold and diamonds. The Hero is a military historian tasked by the megachurch - which is getting low on cash as the project is running over budget - with finding the treasure and determine if a Union General conspired with a Confederate General to steal and then hide a war chest. The Villain wants the gold and clear his family name. Chaos ensues.

-cb

LeviSweeney said:

For example, suppose the good guy was a Catholic priest or something who was paying a visit to the Evangelical megachurch in question, say, as part of some kind of ecumenical occasion. Perhaps this priest was a former U.S. military guy (I thought of making him a chaplain, but Google says that chaplains don't actually fight) who carries a locked firearm kit in the back of his car for emergencies like this, a precaution which the attendees of the large, wealthy megachurch hadn't thought to take.

What do you guys think?

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Sounds like one of the myriad potboiler series cranked out by fifteen writers hired to write action/adventure novels under one pseudonym for a series from the 70s or 80s called something like Exterminator For Hire or The Holy Man or Armed Priest For Hire or something equally strained. And speaking as a former Catholic, there really wouldn't be any need for a Catholic priest to visit an Evangelical megachurch, no matter how "ecumenical" the occasion; unless it was some sort of citywide event sponsored by the local government such as a prayer breakfast or a disaster charity relief benefit on neutral territory, neither would have anything to do with the other.

LeviSweeney said:

That's kind of an interesting thought, but I kind of had this idea where the bad guys weren't some variety of Christians gone bad. IRL, Christians aren't known for orchestrating mass terrorist attacks, and actual Christians highly resent depictions of them as such in the news and what-not. (I say this as a recent convert to Catholicism who grew up Evangelical.)

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Um, Christians were responsible for the vast majority of mass terrorist attacks in the UK... google "IRA" and "The Troubles"