DOJ Argument Against LGBTQ Employment Rights Goes to Supreme Court

Diana Hignutt · Aug 20, 2019

In fact, the administration just issued a proposed rule that would let any company that contracts with the federal government fire LGBTQ workers in the name of "religious liberty."

https://sourcepolitics.com/doj-christian-employers-should-be-allowed-to-make-women-wear-skirts/

It's an attack on trans rights specifically in this case, but would apply to any LGBTQ employee anywhere in the US, giving Christian employers the right to fire people they don't like, and make women wear shirts to work. I don't see how you can keep Equal Employment Opportunity Laws when any religious belief of employers trumps every right of workers. Dark days. We're spiralling down the right-wing toilet of doom...

I don't see how this can stand, but with the stacked court, it will.

frimble3 · Aug 20, 2019

I say if anyone is using 'it's against my religious beliefs' to discriminate among their employees should have to demonstrate that they actually have religious beliefs, and live their life in accordance with those beliefs. Not just popping in on major holidays and having the basic rites performed.

ie, for self-proclaimed Christians (major group in the U.S., and one that I am somewhat familiar with):
Do you know the 10 commandments, and can you explain them?
Have you read all of Leviticus, not just the bits that you find pleasing?
How do you feel about the concept of 'labour is worthy of it's hire'? Do you understand the parable of the good Samaritan? Do you try to emulate it in your own life?
Can you explain the main teachings of Jesus?
How do you find them relevant to your life?
Have you considered rewarding your employees, if not with loaves and fishes, then with the occasional pizza lunch?
Questions will be graded for quality, as well as detail.
Results will be kept on file, should you wish to use your 'religious beliefs' to attack people.

Note: there are no lie detectors in use, but, if you lie, well, God knows everything.

lizmonster · Aug 20, 2019

frimble3 said:
I say if anyone is using 'it's against my religious beliefs' to discriminate among their employees should have to demonstrate that they actually have religious beliefs, and live their life in accordance with those beliefs. Not just popping in on major holidays and having the basic rites performed.

ie, for self-proclaimed Christians (major group in the U.S., and one that I am somewhat familiar with):
Do you know the 10 commandments, and can you explain them?
Have you read all of Leviticus, not just the bits that you find pleasing?
How do you feel about the concept of 'labour is worthy of it's hire'? Do you understand the parable of the good Samaritan? Do you try to emulate it in your own life?
Can you explain the main teachings of Jesus?
How do you find them relevant to your life?
Have you considered rewarding your employees, if not with loaves and fishes, then with the occasional pizza lunch?
Questions will be graded for quality, as well as detail.
Results will be kept on file, should you wish to use your 'religious beliefs' to attack people.

Note: there are no lie detectors in use, but, if you lie, well, God knows everything.

While I take your point, this is exactly why religion needs to stay out of government to begin with.

Civil rights are an attempt to codify the dignities that every human must be granted simply because they are human. If X or Y religion says a particular set of people shouldn't have civil rights, the law must trump that religion's "sincerely-held" beliefs.

To suggest otherwise is blatantly unconstitutional, but my money's on this SCOTUS upholding it. We've been a theocracy after a fashion for a long time; we're now being explicit about it, and the theology we're enacting into law is pretty abhorrent.

Brightdreamer · Aug 20, 2019

The best thing about the religious defense is that, in a courtroom, religion means whatever the "believer" chooses it to mean, even if it directly contradicts the religion's own founding principles. It's the ultimate and eternal Get Out Of Jail Free card, answerable to no logic or fact or authority.

I've said it before, and will say it again: fundamentalism will be the death of the country, and likely the human species.

Introversion · Aug 20, 2019

Brightdreamer said:
The best thing about the religious defense is that, in a courtroom, religion means whatever the "believer" chooses it to mean, even if it directly contradicts the religion's own founding principles. It's the ultimate and eternal Get Out Of Jail Free card, answerable to no logic or fact or authority.

Anyone that eats shellfish or wears clothing made of two types of fabric, that's a stoning in my book...

frimble3 · Aug 20, 2019

Introversion said:
Anyone that eats shellfish or wears clothing made of two types of fabric, that's a stoning in my book...

If God didn't want two types of fabric to be mixed, I cannot believe that he would approve of synthetics, either. "This was a tree, and that was... a puddle of glop?"

I don't think religion should be the basis for anything but one's own private beliefs, or something done among consenting adults, but that genie is out of it's bottle. So, it's time to regulate and restrict.

JimmyB27 · Aug 20, 2019

Diana Hignutt said:
I don't see how you can keep Equal Employment Opportunity Laws when any religious belief of employers trumps every right of workers.

Bet you a tenner it’s not *any* religious belief.

Introversion · Aug 20, 2019

JimmyB27 said:
Bet you a tenner it’s not *any* religious belief.

^ QFT

lizmonster · Aug 20, 2019

frimble3 said:
I don't think religion should be the basis for anything but one's own private beliefs, or something done among consenting adults, but that genie is out of it's bottle. So, it's time to regulate and restrict.

The thing is, I think the original US Constitution was an attempt to do something like this. If no single religion is held above the others, then laws must be made based on the common good.

The current administration has taken "you can't discriminate against someone because of their religion" and warped it into "if someone's religion tells them something is morally wrong, it's discrimination to make them accommodate someone who disagrees with them."

I don't think we can or should restrict religion. But as the old saying goes, what you have a right to do with your religion stops at the end of my nose.

MaeZe · Aug 20, 2019

frimble3 said:
I say if anyone is using 'it's against my religious beliefs' to discriminate among their employees should have to demonstrate that they actually have religious beliefs, and live their life in accordance with those beliefs. Not just popping in on major holidays and having the basic rites performed.

ie, for self-proclaimed Christians (major group in the U.S., and one that I am somewhat familiar with):
Do you know the 10 commandments, and can you explain them?
Have you read all of Leviticus, not just the bits that you find pleasing?
How do you feel about the concept of 'labour is worthy of it's hire'? Do you understand the parable of the good Samaritan? Do you try to emulate it in your own life?
Can you explain the main teachings of Jesus?
How do you find them relevant to your life?
Have you considered rewarding your employees, if not with loaves and fishes, then with the occasional pizza lunch?
Questions will be graded for quality, as well as detail.
Results will be kept on file, should you wish to use your 'religious beliefs' to attack people.

Note: there are no lie detectors in use, but, if you lie, well, God knows everything.

Wouldn't it be fantastic if a judge grilled a bigoted employer like that?

Deleted, Introversion beat me to it.

Kjbartolotta · Aug 20, 2019

Freedom of religion = Freedom from religion.

frimble3 · Aug 21, 2019

MaeZe said:
Wouldn't it be fantastic if a judge grilled a bigoted employer like that?

Deleted, Introversion beat me to it.

Or, a prosecutor. Or, a lawyer for the other side. :evil

I'd settle for an on-air interview, especially if the interviewer has a religious (any) background and can really sink their teeth into the subject!

Diana Hignutt · Aug 21, 2019

JimmyB27 said:
Bet you a tenner it’s not *any* religious belief.

Not that you're wrong, but what kind of legal basis could allow religious "liberty" for Christians only? I'm sure you're right, honestly, but how could this be justified without overturning, like, all legal precedent for the last hundred years?

Roxxsmom · Aug 23, 2019

lizmonster said:
While I take your point, this is exactly why religion needs to stay out of government to begin with.

Exactly, and we already have a situation where the government is declaring some religions more equal than others.

https://truthout.org/articles/leaving-food-and-water-for-migrants-at-the-border-shouldnt-be-a-crime/

Asking them to interpret a person's faith for them won't end well. It already isn't.

Still, I really wish those people who do not follow every behavioral edict set down in the Old and New Testaments could could be called out for targeting LGBTQ people as the only folks in the universe who don't live according to Deuteronomy or Leviticus or whatever.

Nor will they will stop with persecution of LGBTQ people if the courts green light this. They start with the most socially vulnerable group, those whose human rights are still being disputed societally. If successful, they will continue to push, push, and push to see how big of assholes they can get away with being to other groups in the name of "religious freedom."

Introversion · Aug 24, 2019

Diana Hignutt said:
Not that you're wrong, but what kind of legal basis could allow religious "liberty" for Christians only? I'm sure you're right, honestly, but how could this be justified without overturning, like, all legal precedent for the last hundred years?

That’s precisely what the GOP aims to do in areas of personal freedoms. Anything can be justified legally, if you can appoint people of bad faith who agree with your goals.

DOJ Argument Against LGBTQ Employment Rights Goes to Supreme Court

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

MaeZe

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!